Beatrix
- 2004-11-16
It's good that you have taken the time to say exactly what you have, in such a well written format. Good for you! Some of us have been thinking the same thing, but lack the time to say it.
Go to the top of the class!Beatrix 
the telegraph
- 2004-11-15
i know what you mean DoS! i was struck with a sense of deja vu upon reading Hamlet,felt like 'd been robbed while glancing through the Theory of General Relativity, and Schubert's 5th Symphony had a most decidedly familiar ring to it on first listening.
Congratulation DoS on a job well done;your genius shines even vicariously!
Dos
- 2004-11-14
Dear OnceWritten, I have just awarded you my (just-thought-of) Post of the Month award! Please come to China to collect your prize (one Chinese steamed bun, filling of your choice).
Seriously, what a well written post. Nicely thought out, well written and to the point. I was thinking of writing something in this thread, but your post has said everything I was going to say. A pleasure to read sir (or Ms)!
OnceWritten
- 2004-11-14
Perhaps the degree that we develop the ability to speak in another language depends on motivation and how much it is needed for daily survival. If there is absolutely no choice, then people will do it to the best of their ability. But it is actually very tiring to speak in a second language, and stressful too. Until a certain facility or level is reached, it may be that students need a rest and chance to speak their first language.
I think language acquisition is rather a long process. If we think of immigrants to North America, we can see that the first generation often never became fluent. In fact, since language is so much more easily learned by children, it is probably the generation born in a country or who move there in childhood that have the best chance to become truly fluent and comfortable speakers. This is not to say that some talented and diligent people will not become relatively fluent after awhile. But it requires a good deal of effort and perhaps even a long time to achieve this. If we think of learning our first language, we can realize that even 10 year olds haven't achieved a good level of spoken or written language. Probably they will achieve this after 15 or 20 years or even more. So if we are thinking of short term visiting students, or new immigrants, then we can see that they are nowhere nearly able to communicate at their true age levels in the second language. The students realize this and perhaps since they are also socializing, their goals may be to have good communication, and make friends, rather than exclusively to practice English.
This is an issue that interests me as a teacher living in Japan, and as a language learner myself. I use Japanese for everyday business, shopping and basic communication at my office, but I have to confess that in my free time, I often would like to relax and speak English so that I can communicate at a level that my Japanese can not yet reach. There is also the issue of "losing" English if it is not practiced, a thing which I can't afford to do as I have to teach it. Perhaps when thinking of motivation, the desire to communicate with other humans supersedes the desire to speak in any one language.
OnceWritten 
The Arrogant One
- 2004-11-14
My dear Mr. Lewis:
What you have to say about the more-or-less "traditional" dependency of new arrivals (to English-speaking shores) upon their countrymen for translations is, indeed, a perfectly natural phenomenon to expect ... B-U-T, FOR HOW LONG? For any immigrant desiring to settle in, say, the USA, 'tis common sense to expect that the time will surely arrive when he/she will have to negotiate business completely in English. But, my long-term observation has revealed this as NOT being a common practice. Los Angeles, for example, is a large cosmopolitan center that has very strong Korean, Hispanic, and Chinese communities. I once heard it jokingly inferred that this is one of the only English-speaking centers in the USA in which one can be born ... attend privately operated schools (right through high school) which specialize in one ethnicity, one language, or one religion ... initiate a business which caters strictly to those of one's own culture ... flourish ... marry ... rear children ... and die -- not having spoken more than a handful of words in English! Perhaps this is somewhat exaggerated, but it isn't difficult to quickly accept the fact that, in particularly the larger coastal cosmopolitan areas, English is definitely not the primary means of oral communication -- especially in light of all the international cackling that is conducted in shops, in restaurants, on the buses ... even in the public rest rooms! Then, there's always the question of the FREE English courses offered to practically all newcomers to this land. Yes, people do attend, but not as many as you would think can ever freely utilize the language without first referring to their native tongue and, thereby, still have to go through a lengthy, often inaccurate translation process. As you have said, sir, there is still the convenience ... the safety ... the sanctuary of one's own native community to which to flee.
Yes, my friend, I can well imagine the problems you are experiencing as a result of your personal ethnic dissimilarity. As we humans are still cursed with far too many sins, of which bigotry is one, you will face rejection from not only other races, but even from those of your own nationality. In light of this country's greatness having stemmed from the contributions of a wide diversity of cultures and ethnicities, there is no reason in hell why, at this late date, we have to tolerate prejudice or any variation of same. Once America truly serves as THE bastion of equality, I feel that Asia (and the rest of the civilized world, for that matter) will eventually follow suit. At least one can always pray so. (Amen.)
It was truly wonderful to read your opinion, my brother.
Peace.
The Arrogant One
A. Lewis
- 2004-11-12
Dear Arrogant One,
just try and think about all of the foreigners from English speaking countries, who fail to learn and utilize the languages of the hosts countries they reside in.
most foreigners come in daily contact with those people who already have some ability in speaking English, and some level of experience in talking with foreigners.
many of them depend on such people to help them and rely on them as translations between themslves and those who haven't much English skills.
For asians in the USA...yes they do tend to congregate in their own social groups and speak their mother tongues.
this can only be quite natural, for life in america is almost exactly the same.
even though the states represents a diversity of people, cultural and ethnic backgrounds, still the majority of people tend to associate with those coming from their communities.
i can't always accept this for i am ethnically diverse and have always lived my life, not 100% accepted in any group.
so when i observe just how much people from around the world and here in the states, lean on each other for social support, sometimes i feel a deep disapointment in my heart.
it's very rare that people from different ethnic or cultural backgrounds, come together and can relate to as "people" to one another.
it seems that no matter how far human civilization evolves, people can only find comfort in those who clearly represent their own community.
myself being mixed race forever, i've always felt the
"outside" of the society feeling...anywhere in the world, as well as a kind of quite advantage to all this mess.
well, the next time you observe the ESL students amongst themselves, just try and remember what i've tried to contribute to this.
i think foreign groups of people realize that in america, people relate to their own.
they probably feel no reason to do any different than the locals.
they might want to expand their horizons a bit, and make friends with those not representing themselves, but don't really know how and where to begin.
compared to asian countries where they are coming from, american society can look very dangerous, depending on where they are living.
plus, asians naturally feel more comfortable around other asians.
peace brother
You know ... just upstairs from my favorite Starbucks, where I sip and write for a few hours each day, a college extension ESL program is given to about 80-90 learners, mostly from Korea and Japan. Rather than concentrate on the degree of their language proficiency, I have decided to spend more time observing student attitudes as more accurately revealed when they are out of class and with their buddies. Now, I won't be so presumptuous as to critique one's right to communicate in whichever tongue he/she opts when class is not in session, but it has always served as The Eighth Wonder to my mind as to why practically all foreigners who come to this country (often at great expense) constantly refuse to take full advantage of a golden opportunity to conduct all their business in the lingua of the land in which they are situated. Moreover, I've been espying students -- even those who have reached an advanced level with many skills at their fingertips -- regularly congregating in their own societal groups, merrily chattering away in their native tongues. That's OK, B-U-T, in view of the obviously relieved expressions on their faces, one would think they had just been paroled from a penitentiary where they were the recipients of savage beatings at least twice per day! My question: Why the hell study a language if you don't use it ... particularly while residing in the land where it is spoken??? Once again, I don't wish to condone any teacher's authority to sit in judgment of the motives of others, but, at this late date, I consider it extremely odd to see such a thing occurring in so many ESL schools throughout the land.
On the other hand, while ESL instructors in a foreign land, the task of getting everyone to voluntarily speak English after class is more difficult than ever to achieve. And, ironically enough, it is we, the teachers, who must likewise face the challenge of learning second-language communication! Until we are fairly familiar with the tongue of whichever land in which we are teaching, it is, in most cases, WE who desperately seek after-class verbal exchange in English!
When looking back in early U.S. history, it is plain to see that the English (or French) language always served as THE great link between immigrants from all corners of the world -- even with the Native American Indian. In the beginning, people simply HAD to learn at least enough English (or French) to conduct their business on a day-to-day basis. Albeit my parents were born in the USA, their parents, coming from Austria and Germany, were, in those days, obliged to learn their English strictly through conversation, and, for survival's sake, as quickly as was possible. While the level of English language "proficiency" that such immigrants spoke left almost everything to be desired, people could and did manage to build this land to the level of greatness it enjoys today. But how does this all affect us as instructors either here or somewhere abroad, or in our secondary rle as cultural ambassadors? Moreover, how is it possible to instill within our students that ardent desire to use the English language for a longer period than the 3-4 hours officially prescribed each day? In other words, how can we help fight off the phenomenon which I call The Stick to Your Own Kind Except During School Hours Syndrome?
If you have also thought about this problem, I would appreciate your contributing your insight and constructive suggestions. In any event, I believe this one to be "a toughie" to solve. Thank you for your time.
bientt ... and ... love to all,
The Arrogant One