Portici
- 2005-01-13
Hmm, I think I object to your train of thinking :
for starters the 'Dutch dialect' you're referring to
is the language of Afrikaans.It is not a dialect, but a proper language. If I were to apply this kind of reasoning to myself - a Belgian - I wouldn't get very far: acoording to our French, Dutch and German neighbours, we speak neither German, Dutch or French, yet these are the official languages of the
land. It's not that big a bother as the country thrives on the speaking in tongues. So, stop splitting hairs and get on with it!
The Arrogant One
- 2004-12-29
Of course, peace is the main concern of many of today while, oddly enough, it would appear that an age-old conflict such as that in the Middle East has not as yet reach what might be considered a manageable or even tolerable stage. And, generally speaking, likewise has the case of the international ESL marketplace. Nonetheless, like all worthwhile confrontations in this coexistence, the struggle continues. But, by the same token, more and more of us -- particularly the newcomers to ESL -- continue to be deceived left and right and in practically every land on the planet. Yet, ironically enough, with both the whining and legitimate complaints, so many of us still feel that our comments have hardly been aired to the right sources, let alone acted upon. Granted, the aspects of profit/loss of any ESL business enterprise usually take precedence over the concerns of its peons, without whose efforts, incidentally, management wouldn't be in a position to realize even one nickle's worth of profit! Granted, there have been some employers on this and other boards who have manifested genuine interest in the needs of their instructors -- both imported and domestic. But being content in merely the recognition of legitimate gripes is far from ridding oneself of same, not to mention providing a cure for what ails the employees concerned. Admittedly, there is a veritable army out there of those who, in fact, are not qualified to teach anything human, yet one cannot really expect these hungry slobs to discern the difference between the real teachers and themselves, now can we? It is YOU, THE EMPLOYER who must take the initiative to draw the distinction between the wheat and the chaff ... the goodies and the baddies. This means either personal interviews (perhaps as part of a yearly recruitment tour), or YOUR solicitation of records and recommendations from all major sources cited in an applicant's rsum. If I may ("apologies" to The Observer), as an employer, from the very start, you must set stringent operational parameters. Also, if I might respectfully make one additional key suggestion, it certainly wouldn't hurt you to consider the services of a business/ESL-experienced native speaker to act in a management capacity -- not only to investigate and recommend the hiring of your foreign teaching staff, but more importantly to adjudge each and every contestant from a western point of view and present such findings to the eastern executive staff for joint consideration and selection. In other words, it would probably profit you greatly to have a native-speaking coordinator who stems from the ESL business, has a knowledge of and experience in business procedure and (western) personnel coordination. Grin and bear it: when you've located the right individual for such a key position, be prepared to offer a western-based salary with the trimmings, if only because he'll be worth his weight in gold! Hell! If I weren't so occupied at present, I would throw my own hat in the ring for such a challenging task!!!
My dear "Disturbed," I assure you there are means by which to expertly address your problem. I grant you, there are some implacable aspects to dismiss, however, this is not to say the overall problem is unsolvable. As yours is a business enterprise which demands the contributions of both The East and West, it is mandatory that all foreign persons employed by you possess the skill, experience, and progressive attitude in this totally worthwhile international communications undertaking.
Believe me, I am in your corner on this issue.
Your friend,
The Arrogant One
esl in asia
- 2004-12-28
Is this something not found in any industry? Private bonuses have always been given to reward good performance. Even Christmas bonuses can amount to a gift certificate for a turkey or the keys to the latest Lexus.
You should be able to monitor teacher performance regardless of whether they are teaching a hard, lackadaisical class or a studious class. My company uses unannounced lesson monitoring and student comments. You can tell if this teacher is really putting in the effort.
If they are teaching a despondent class, you can still monitor the lesson plan, activities and student performance compared with before. If a teacher has a studious class but is not as prepared or works on materials as hard, then they are not worth as much bonus.
It sounds like a cop-out to say this is a road-block when all industries face the same problems. Why is the ESL industry any different? The fact is that schools skimp to pocket profits and dont worry about a few disgruntled teachers, as contracts are for a year and 100 new teachers are waiting in the wings.
Actually, students like variety of teachers as long as the turnover is not too frequent. The idea that you train teachers and the start-up cost on a teacher is too much is ridiculous. You can have a new teacher up and running on the first day. Rarely do schools invest that much in a teacher. Few schools buy a plane ticket upfront and the apartment is usually rented on a contract with an agency regardless of who is living in it.
So why pay a bonus anyway? Why pay for more than the market will bear? Its a dead-end question. You use them, then send them on the plane back to Kansas and get the next batch in. Its not hard to figure out.
I do have sympathy with the schools to a degree. There are teachers that can do stupid things in class and run off good paying clients. Thats where the real risk is. For these few hippies (actually hippies are the mellow ones you probably mean hell raisers) that can be screened like many companies screen applicants: you check references. 
disturbed
- 2004-12-28
You do have a very good point. We have definately considered using salary increases in order to retain and attract good teachers. However, it becomes difficult. We would rather use those raises to motivate teachers to be great teachers, and to reward those that are. Hopefully, this would motivate our drunken hippie teachers ( that we didn't anticipate to be drunken hippies before they arrived... and some of which only became drunken hippies after they met all the other drunken hippies in this city...) to become better teachers as well. But then, every situation is different.
Say have an excellent teacher teaching older students and is getting excellent reports of doing a great job, so you give them a much deserved raise.
You also have a teacher teaching very young students, who don't understand a whole lot of the language yet and are basically too young and undisciplined to be in a classroom to begin with. That teacher looks very bad in comparison to Teacher A ( above ).
You give the raise to Teacher A and not to Teacher B and Teacher B storms into the office threatening to contact their embassy.
You give the raise to both teachers, recognizing that they are both doing a great job despite their different obstacles and either a) Teacher B is angry that Teacher A gets the same raise but has a much easier time or b) Teacher C who is just a mediocre teacher that didn't get a raise storms in threatening to contact their embassy.
You end up implementing "time based incentives" such as 6 month bonuses, a raise every 4 months or so on, and you are back to the same problem of the great teachers and the shitty teachers making the same amount, and they're still angry about it.
It makes me want to run for the hills... if they weren't full of snakes and tigers.
jack
- 2004-12-28
The point I was making is that people from those nineteen Caribbean countries ,I mentioned ARE native speakers ,because the official language of all those countries is ENGLISH!! Does that not make them "native speaking" countries ?
I take your point about SOUTH AFRICANS not being sought after to teach ESL . Many South African whites originate from Holland and their first language is a Dutch dialect ,and most blacks there have their own native dialects.
However I don't agree that people from Ireland,Scotland and new Zealand are not sought after ,or are unsuitable to teach ESL .Don't you realise that,IN EVERY NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKING COUNTRY MOST NATIVES DO NOT SPEAK STANDARD ENGLISH,AND THAT INCLUDES ENGLAND ITSELF .
Yes even in ENGLAND ,where English first came from most people speak with accents that differ from standard English .for instance you have Cockney,Scouse ,Brummie and Geordie dialects, just to name a few of many in England.
If Scottish and Irish people are not generally sought after to teach ESL in China ,why do many schools ask for teachers from 'THE U.K',rather than England?
The reason is that , just like people from other native English speaking countries, plenty of Scots and Irish people speak English more than well enough to qualify to teach ESL in China .
The point is in every native English speaking country ,which includes Canada,America ,The U.K (including Wales,Ireland and Scotland),New Zealand ,Australia and nineteen countries in the Caribbean most people don't speak standard English ,yet at the same time in each of those countries you have a healthy minority who do ,yes, including the Caribbean countries!!. Yes,many people in the Caribbean speak a creole dialect ,but at the same time many people there, speak standard English better than native speakers from England or
America.
Observe This
- 2004-12-28
-Just a minor mistake. The US allows dual citizenship. For example, Canada and the US do but Canada changed the law for certain years; however, not the US. Also, I knew people from Latin America that had both. This is legal. I actually have a two passports myself.
However, as you said, that doesn't guarantee native abilities: it's just a passport and thats it.
The Arrogant One
- 2004-12-28
Dear Mr. Discouraged,
I couldn't agree more with your recognition of the barriers involved in efficiently hiring ESL instructors from abroad. Unfortunately, however, you seem to have omitted a method to take you closer to your goal, i.e., YOUR personally traveling to the USA, Canada, UK, or anyplace you desire to conduct personal interviews and or auditions in the form of sample lessons! YES, it does cost money to follow out such a strategy, albeit you can view it as a necessary investment. Incidentally, I can recall having been hired for two of the three positions I held in Japan via this method. It was sure-shot, efficient, and the school owner wound up with no surprises, as his choices were predicated upon personally knowing whom he was hiring instead of relying solely upon paperwork (diplomas, etc.) which, as you say, could have been purchased through devious means.
Now, with the above in mind, you may not have to repeat such a journey yearly, but rely upon the recommendations of your personally recruited employees for any necessary additions or replacements to your staff.
The biggest step now follows, my friend. Once having personally built your own fortress of ESL expertise, it is now important to RETAIN such treasured personnel. This is most assuredly where the question of REMUNERATION enters stage. Hiring one of your recruits at a salary somewhat higher than that of your competition will go a long way in guaranteeing you the much-needed elements of loyalty and consistency on the part of your teaching staff. To put it in a nutshell, practically all native English-speakers come from a CAPITALISTIC background. Ergo, in the modern working world - here in the USA for example - a hard-working, contributing, and loyal employee will usually anticipate regular periodic raises throughout his/her career with a company or school. Assuming the school is in a position to oblige, it is no crime for a teacher to expect a gesture of the owner's recognition of his/her contributions made over a certain period of time - usually made in the form of a salary increase.
Granted, dear employer, instructors who migrate to the PRC to teach English will have to make certain adjustments in their lifestyles to comply with existing cultural differences. By the same token, it would be quite unfair to ask that same cooperative individual to abandon his/her traditional key to economic success in the workplace ... a decent starting income enhanced by periodic incentives.
Just a thought, sir. Thank you for your time.
With much respect and wishes for your success in the New Year,
The Arrogant One
recognition through consistent and productive effort
da yan jing
- 2004-12-28
Because those countries have an English accent very different from countries like England, Canada, America and Australia.
On that same note, Ireland and Scotland are also native English speaking countries, but they are not sought after for these teaching positions either. Their accent is too drastically different.
As well, many schools will not hire New Zealanders or South Africans either, because of the difference in their accents.
So if schools are this picky between nationalities that actually DO speak English as their native language, why would they hire a non-native English speaker?
jack
- 2004-12-27
While on the subject of native speakers of English,could somebody tell me how many native speaking countries, there are in the world?
We often see schools keen to offer native speakers from just Britian ,The USA ,Australia ,New Zealand ,Canada and South Africa,yet there are at least nineteen countries in the Caribbean whose official language is English.
If that is so, shouldn't the natives of these countries be classed as native speakers of English?
Of course Chinese schools, or schools anywhere can specify whichever countries they wish to choose there teachers from,but I do wonder why ,when expressing their desire for a native speaker, they don't take advantage of a wider market and ask for native speakers from places like Trinidad,Jamiaca, Barbados and many other Caribbean islands, to teach in their schools.
disturbed
- 2004-12-27
Shockingly true, yes.
Hiring a non-native English speaker for the job is exactly the same as hiring a Chinese English teacher.
As well, yes I agree that the countries you listed are NOT native English speaking at all. Furthermore, many also claim to have "dual" American citizenship, however, doesn't America only allow dual citizenship with one country? Isn't it Israel?
If someone is lying to their prospective employer, why would they expect to be hired?
Sis
- 2004-12-27
You have written my mind.,I have been a freelance recruiter for nearly 2 years,and i totally understand what you mean.English Native speakers are very humble and polite when they apply for the positions,I enjoy reading their emails,but those who are from other countries always destroy your day.I have received so many threatens that i can't even remember,most of them call me a racist which i think I am no way near that,they keep telling me that Cameroon ,Congo,Nigeria.etc are English Native Speaking Countries which completely betrays what I have learnt from my education,They also like to use:my mother is an American(British) while my father is a Nigerian(Cameroonian),you read their emails,and they look almost identical,even the grammar and spelling mistakes.
I don't mean that people from non-native English Speaking countries do not deserve a job in China,but they should value themselves before they apply for the jobs,Chinese English teachers can speak as "good"English as those Africans,but what did they do in past?they dumped the new generations' English.
discouraged
- 2004-12-27
As you say, yes - most schools are only concerned with putting a white face on the fliers, however, we really care about the education of our students. In a school where the majority of our student recruiting is from our current students and their friends, our reputation is extremely important to us. We have teachers who are not white working at our schools, but they are all from native English speaking countries.
It is very difficult to require our teachers to have degrees:
1. Those teachers with degrees tend to go to countries that pay higher wages like Japan and Korea.
2. Many degrees here are easily photoshopped or forged. Unless you contact their school registrar there really is no way to tell authenticity now.
3. Many of our teachers don't have degrees, and are phenomenal teachers. How does a degree in something like Physical Education, Philosophy or Math help you to teach English? I would choose the "un-educated" camp counselor, children's festival volunteer or youth group leader rather than the person with a great degree but no experience.
As well, yes - trial lessons would be ideal. However, I feel very responsible to the teacher if I bring them over to China. I could not turn them away after only one lesson.
It is very difficult for a school to find good teachers through only email or the telephone. You never know who you are going to get. I also think it should be mandatory for any teacher in any country to have a security back ground check done before they are given their work permit. I don't even want to think about some of the people who come to work here and what happens that we don't know about.
Everyone on this board is so concerned with how they are getting screwed by the schools, they should realize that it works vice-versa as well.
Observe This
- 2004-12-27
Do you have a guy there that goes by the moniker of "The Observer"?. There's also this really educated teacher by the name of Bea. Did you hire her too? If so, I can fully understand your frustration.
Why don't you raise the wages but screen out teachers harder? You see, that is against market principles. Schools lower the wages to make more money and hire these charlatans like "The Observer".
Wage deflation will occur as long as there is ample supply of these kinds of people. In short, being qualified is not what schools want, its a white face to put on a school's flyer and make a fast Yuan. In an ideal situation, you would raise the wages and raise the standards of teachers you select. That is, you would require degrees, certifications, experience and last but not least, a trial lesson.
Recently, I have had the "opportunity" to do some Foreign English teacher recruiting for my school. However, the majority of people who respond to ads and who are interested in positions are "English" teachers, who are not actually from a native English speaking country, and their written English is just terrible!
I don't understand why so many people would feel qualified to teach a language that they cannot fully grasp themselves, and then yet become very upset when they are not offered the teaching position. Many times I have recieved emails from angry applicants because they did not get a favorable response from my school, and accuse us of being racist and "white supremisists" ( I have no idea how to spell that word...sorry!)
It is now at the point that we have to insist on recieving a passport information page just to confirm an applicant's nationality, as it is very often untrue! So many applicants, especially from African countries state that their current nationality is their country of residence, but they were born in Canada, America or England, which turns out to be untrue on their passport.
If a person is from a native English speaking country, with a western English accent ( which is what our students want to learn ) they must be from New Zealand, America, Canada, England, South Africa or Australia. I don't care if they are green or purple, but they also have to be able to speak AND WRITE proper English.
Perhaps this influx of terribly un-qualified English teachers is a possible factor in why teaching wages are so low in China?
This is a portion of an application for a teaching position that I actually recieved:
"i am teacher by profession with diploma in English language and a degree in primary and secondary education.i have thought for four years with a government agency.k kindly send anything you will like me know concerning your recruitment especially detail arrangements.The position going to be handled and the reenumeration's as well.DON'T FORGET MY MAIN CONCERN IS THE RENUMERATION.IF IT IS COOL WITH ME I WILL HONOR THE CONTRACT.Hoping to hear from you soon."
Obviously, this person is not a native English speaker. If you are applying for a position as an English teacher it would be wise to at least use proper English, including spacing and capitalization. Do not threaten the school during your first contact with them.
I then replied to this person, telling them that I apologise but will not be offering a teaching position to them, however, you may want to consider revising your application for future use, as you would get a better response.
A day later I recieved a death threat from the applicant, vowing to find me when they come to China and swearing. This email was also badly written, not to mention the display of ridiculously bad manners and the confirmation that I am glad this teacher will be no where near any of our students.
The thing that really gets me the most is that this person's main concern is that they be paid well. Why should this person be paid nearly as well as someone who is actually qualified to hold the position? Why are all English teachers here in China getting the same pay, when some are deserving real wages, and others more deserving of a replacement more than anything else...
Just a thought.