I didn't suggest there has been social harmony in china and there may never be. I stated that the goal was social harmony. It's an ideal and a noble one in much the same way that we hold concepts such as equality, liberty and justice for all as an ideal and continue to work as hard as we can to ensure that it happens. Yet when we open the newspaper or we talk to people on the street in a western country we will find things that do not correspond with these ideals. Therefore, Should we say that these ideals and our culture have failed and throw in the towel?

I think what would be good is to put those facts and figures you've quoted (some referencing would be nice) into a global perspective. How many nations with the size and population of china haven't been at war for a significant part of their history? Perhaps if you were to go and examine American history you would find that there haven't been many years when the US wasn't embroiled in an international war, a civil war, the planned extermination of native Americans (does the fact that the native Americans didn't band together somehow excuse them being thrown off their ancestral lands?), taking of land from neighboring countries such as Mexico, 'exploration' of the pacific rim by military forces, etc., etc., etc. I draw this point not to be anti-western or anti-American (you could equally choose a nation from outside the west if you like) but to show that if you are intent to rank cultures then it's only fair that you use the same criteria to do so.

On the same basis the US government is also responsible for cover-ups. To use an example on the same kind of scale as the Xi'an incident you mentioned I could use the example of the USS Liberty. You see there are unethical and immoral people operating in governments of every country in the world.

These are facts and regardless of what you believe they do show a pattern of flaws that occurs across all human societies.

I don't believe that concepts of 'face' and I'll throw in 'guanxi' for good measure need only be about materialistic gains. In my time in china I have seen them used in a positive manner as well as being used for selfish gains. I think most westerners can relate to the positive aspects of those systems within their own cultures as well. Western individuals still care how they are perceived by their peers and for some this might be a question of having the latest iPhone or designer clothing for others it might be via a more meaningful contribution to life. You've suggested yourself that I should spend time cultivating relationships on this board and in real life so you clearly understand the importance of guanxi. Doing things for others with the understanding that they will reciprocated seems a fairly pragmatic view of human relations. The dark side of guanxi and the one that is often talked about is undoubtedly cronyism, nepotism and corruption but then again corruption seems to be a feature of virtually every system. Take for example the powerful and well funded lobby groups who represent the interests of big business in western democracies.

Similarly with fairness and justice, can you say that the current financial crisis in the west which cost millions of people their jobs, houses, savings and pensions was fair? Has anything been done to bring those greedy few who are responsible to justice? No, we westerns will just sit back and wait for the next crash to come. The same patterns of self destruction seem to appear in all human societies. Of course we could say that a financial crisis is not on the same level as a famine. We are lucky to come from countries that are economically developed enough to avoid (fingers crossed) that kind of catastrophe. the Chinese of the 20th century weren't but then they weren't the only ones. Should we also label parts of Africa, Eastern Europe, the Middle East and other areas of Asia as inferior because the people there had the misfortune to experience such terrible events. The way you put is as if we should just tell them that they only have themselves to blame for getting into the situation in the first place because they themselves are lacking something as individuals and a culture as a whole. If I were to say the same thing to a poster on here about their negative experiences of working in china ie. you should have known better, you'd accuse me (and have done) of lacking compassion and understanding. Where is your compassion and understanding for the everyday, normal Chinese individual? Like us westerners I believe that most of them are honest folk just trying to get by in life. They are not perfect but they don't deserve to be sneered at because they have endured hard times in the recent past.

Change is possible but democracy and law didn't just appear overnight. In the west they were developed over time and will continue to be developed, changed or possibly rejected in the future. For more recent examples of transition we could look at the likes of Germany or multiple countries in Eastern Europe. Many People in these nations lived for years under despotic and tyrannical rule. In certain of those cases the transition towards a freer society where individual rights are guaranteed has been very difficult precisely because these people where used to being told what to do (in the same way you criticize the Chinese) and yet the changes ARE happening. If history teaches us anything it's that nothing is set in stone. The acid test for the Chinese I believe will come over the next couple of generations. Perhaps that Pandora's box full of oppression and anger that you are fond of speaking about will be opened and result in a change for the positive. Of course the Chinese are generally aware of their own history which has seen many dynasties over the millennia overthrown for reasons of corruption and incompetence. The ensuing conflicts that the power vacuum always creates should and does serve as a constant reminder to the Chinese of what can happen when you simply remove a centralized regime. So Perhaps we should applaud their caution rather than criticize their lack of action by saying conceited things like

China as well as the Chinese have a bad habit of not learning from their own mistakes

I feel they are painfully aware of their past. It would appear that you perhaps are not so aware!

I will state again. I am not trying to argue that one system is better than the other. I am not operating on an anti-western or pro-Chinese agenda as you are keen on stating. I simply disagree with your rational that the Chinese are morally inferior. Your ideas and opinions are centred only on china. You are unable to take a world view that encompasses the west as well as other cultures into consideration. I would suggest (as I have before) that this comes from an emotional reaction to your experiences in china and the experiences you had with Chinese people. This may explain your opinion but it doesn't excuse it.