"what does an oral English teacher need training for? hahaha but as long as it's free"
That means, maybe, you have no experience with teaching at all. An oral teacher has to teach too! Not only to talk. China is full of these kind of "oral speaker". They think to become an english teacher because they speak english. And taking care is not only to bring you to a train station, but taking care for the trouble you can get in a country you don' t know. Have been teaching there for years.

-- I was living in an apartment with a bathroom that leaked from the floor, the toilet, and the sink.
-- The AC didn't work.
-- The Internet wasn't connected.
-- I couldn't close the front door because it was jammed.
-- I couldn't stand in front of the bathroom mirror because the water heater was in the way.
-- The walls were severely stained. The bedroom and the bathroom were extremely ill lit.
-- This was my third company provided apartment and none of them had a kitchen, even though the contract specifies a kitchen and even specifies a fridge and a microwave.
-- I had to buy my own heater, rice cooker, lamp, extension cord, etc, even a mouse for my offce computer.
-- He wanted me to contribute to the Buckland Facebook page, but he wouldn't pay for a VPN, even after he told me to use a free VPN and I informed him all the free VPNs are blocked.
-- His Chinese course teacher agreed to tutor me a few hours a week in her free time, but then he told her she couldn't tutor me unless I enrolled in his Chinese course.

O和de a r, it does sound like you have a real grievance, as long as you did all the standard checks before you agreed to work for them? Did you get detailed photographs of the exact flat you are now occupying? Did you speak with a half dozen other teachers past and currently employed there? If you didn't do those things i hope you just grinned and beared it.

-- He said my salary would be at least 5000, then he said my salary would be 4500.

-- He said he would pay the train fare for the interview, but he didn't.

-- He said he would pay me for February, but he didn’t.

-- He said he would give me a TESOL certificate, but he didn't.

-- He said he would pay the shipping for vocabulary cards I loaned to the VET program, but he didn't.

-- He agreed to store my teaching books, then he took them out of storage and gave them back to me.

-- He said he would send me to America and pay my recruiting expenses, but he didn't do either.

-- He said snail mail is a great way to network, then he said snail mail is ridiculous.

VSO used to send volies to the PRC to teach English. In their bunf, they said you'd receive an 'allowance'. Funny that said allowance was approx double what salaried Chinese teachers of English were on. Shows you what some 'Dame sth or other' working for VSO knew about the situ here behind the Great Wall! SFA! Typical Brit arrogance. No way would VSO let any of its its volies teach without Zs!
Good thing VSO has jettisoned China for EFL work. Better not to work for a volie outfit. One boss, the Chinese one, is better'n 2! Some of their volies I happened to meet told me their complaints weren't pursued with the Chinese employer by their VSO reps, who chose to duck out, for reasons of "diplomacy".
I reckon 'allowance' = 'stipend', meaning-wise!

If anything FT's working on F and L Visas should get a higher wage because in my experience, generally speaking, they seem to be better teachers. I think what it is, is that if you do have the impudence to come to China and teach without a degree, you are probably self-educated; which means you have really wanted to learn, and so, very confident of your abilities in English, otherwise you wouldn't have the nerve to attempt it; whereas, any half-wit can get a degree these days, with very little effort. The best and most popular teachers I've met in China haven't had degrees. It follows then that Buckland are getting the best teachers(those on F visas) for much less than they pay their Z Visa teachers(the ones with the degrees) They did say that Z Visa teachers were on a proper salary and the others receiving a stipend- although there's some doubt as to whether they know what stipend means.

Shu Chong, here is the original post, and a line from the teacher who posted it that I will extract.

http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/review/index.pl?read=26636

People entering on China on a tourist "L" and eventually able to get the original documentation for a "Z" visa MUST exit China as a tourist, apply for the visa and re-enter as a worker. "F" visas are only for those engaged business and are NOT able to be used for working, even for short term contracts as Owen claims. There are no specially licensed organizations who are allowed to employ a special category of persons (ie foreign teachers of English on short term contracts).

There are many people working illegally in China still, that doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. Being that China is developing, that should give folks the idea that gradually the good, ethical, and law abiding way of doing things will replace the poor, unethical, and illegal ways that still permeate this country. We would all want as expats (most of us, at least) to work in an environment where we don't have to worry about being deported due to a sudden change in policy from the central bureau. If the central Chinese government were to crack down on people working without the proper visas like they have in the past, then any non-Z visa teachers could be targeted. You have been doing poor business forever to the point where you actually feel entitled to do things this way. I ask you to name us one good, ethical reason why you cannot get a proper Z Visa for a teacher.

I repeat, name a Buckland teacher who got busted teaching on an F visa.

And Yuncheng (Shanxi province), foreign teachers teaching without Z visas are safeguarded locally, likewise. But that's no guarantee that that will continue to be the case. So, I advise anyone teaching in China without a Z visa to have about the equivalent of 20,000 RMB available fast in the unlikely event of things going pear-shaped with the PSB. You don't wanna end up in a Chinese jail!
I should add that there are FTs here with Bachelor's degrees who choose to teach 'illlegally'. By doing so, they needn't undergo medicals, and can pull runners without subsequent retribution against them.
What I'd like to know about Buckland group is if there is holiday travel allowance and air fare allowance both specified in the contract, and for a 10 month contract, what would they be in RMB?

Not really the point. If you are breaking the law, you face a real risk of getting busted later. FTs don’t want that.

I have personally known people who have been busted working on an F Visa and they were detained, thus leaving behind possibly a criminal record. For you, you are just skitting by and you don't care if the teacher gets busted or not because you have the local officials in your back pockets most likely, so you don't care if the teacher gets screwed over.

http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/review/index.pl?page=9;read=26636 Is this how you give the runaround to teachers?

I want to clear up another misconception. Buckland is not a recruiter. A recruiter doesn't employ you. He just introduces you to a school. Once he gets his fee, he's finished with you. Buckland operates a full service agency. Everything from visas to travel to lodging to banking to training, then 24/7 support for the entire length of your assignment.

I'm sorry to say you have not cleared up that 'misconception;' the recruiter you describe is the very best type of recruiter; he/she works very hard for his money; is content with that one off payment and hopefully shoves off to leave you in peace (or otherwise) at your new school. In other words you could say, he doesn't stay around to keep leeching off of you- I have a lot of time for this type of recruiter. This Buckland House of yours-do they recruit or does a fairy wave her wand and FT's arrive? The fact that Buckland may go on to arrange and pay for your visas(do they do that?)-arrange your flight itinerary-provide a flat- take you to the bank-train you(what does an oral English teacher need training for? hahaha but as long as it's free) and spy on you 27/7, for the entire length of your assignment(sounds like a secret agents job) does not make them anything else but a recruiter. Now we have established that you are indeed a recruiter-are you a good recruiter or a bad one? I have heard that you are the worst possible kind?

I want to clear up another misconception. Buckland is not a recruiter. A recruiter doesn't employ you. He just introduces you to a school. Once he gets his fee, he's finished with you. Buckland operates a full service agency. Everything from visas to travel to lodging to banking to training, then 24/7 support for the entire length of your assignment.

Excellent piece of blatant advertising work.

Don’t take notice of him, you need a z visa, don’t risk working on a F visa.

Thanks.

I also agree communication in China is very different from the west. As a naive newbie in my first year, I just thought a smile meant happiness/satisfaction, but there is a definite difference in communication, and sometimes being smiled at in China, does not indicate happiness or pleasantness towards you. Sometimes it is better to be guarded with your emotions in that place, and always come across as cold, and serious, lest one gets taken advantage of.

....this is a lesson in the Tao...going with the flow, learning to trust...oneself and others. It is not the west it is china and it operates in a very different way. That is why we visit China ...to learn the Chinese way.

At the risk of repeating something often said, this sounds like GW speak, and I am certain silverboy and turnoi will agree, and possibly dragonized.

Thanks once again for your input. The latest from here is that the PSB have been instructed to check the accommodation of all foreigners visiting Chinese relatives. They will do so only once, and once thereafter every time such foreigners change their abodes. This is new, and has been introduced by Beijing. It could well be evidence of a new era, one of tightening-up!

I have my new travel visa, a six-month one, but I have been advised to apply for the five-year Residence Permit next time. Another office will deal with that, and my wife was told it should be automatic in my case as I've been wed to her for more than a decade, and am over sixty. To get that five-year one before was much more difficult - I believe one had to prove continuity of income over a longish period! But at my age I shouldn't be working, so the PSB said to my wife, so that condition wouldn't apply!

RPs are multi entry. You are able to leave and re-enter the country as many times as you want while the permit is still valid. You only really need a release letter if you are changing jobs in china. You certainly don't need one to leave the country

As for things like PSB 'blacklists', I'm sure they exist in some sense. However, the system is so fractured that it doesn't at this point in time seem to work on a nationwide basis. Sure there are examples of people who have been busted in this way but there are many more who run on a z visa and then a few weeks later turn up somewhere else in this great nation working on a new RP no questions asked.

In regards the need for Id to buy train tickets, surely that's a risk for anyone as regardless of visa type they are asking for a passport number. If you're that worried I'd suggest just giving the girl behind the counter any old picture Id. My expired uk driving license usually does the trick when I've forgotten to bring my passport with me.

In any case, I don't fly home. I prefer to spend my air fare allowance within China than waste it on air tickets. I have a degree from a UK university, and have initially worked legally.

Not sure who wrote this, but I find it pretty heavy and sad. Not even outside of China for a holiday? Granted air tickets are expensive and flying is tiring, but then so is staying in China continuously, even the most hardened zhong guo tongs long for a break, even if just to another asian destination.

Horses for courses and all that though.

Happy summer beers
SMGS

Seneca, yes, Owen will "transfer" the employer fired teacher; however, the same greedy agent will provide another foreign face for the same greedy employer. This filthy agent does not support the teachers at any point of their employement appointment, although it takes a large part of their monthly salaries. In any case, offering another foreign face to a filthy employer, who does not have a license to hire foreigners, is despicable and in fact reprehensible.
Cheers and beers to "perfectly legal" :LOL

Many of the schools, be they public or private, are as despicable as many of the agents/recruiters, don't you know that, FFS?
Cheers and beers to those of us who can get paid as foreign teachers in an imperfect education system, perfectly or imperfectly legally, the latter the better coz of the imperfections of certain Chinese who have set the leaky system up in the first place! Big lol!

Doing a runner on a working visa is usually due to the teacher looking to avoid paying certain fines but having a working visa doesn't prevent you from doing the runner.

If your employer's on the ball, he can get you detained at the border. It has happened! Or he can report you, and you'll be blacklisted by SAFEA!

When an RP expires or is terminated there is the option to change it to an L visa usually for the period of 1 month. This gives teachers working on such a visa sufficient time to get things in order and if they want to find a new job they can do so. Equally (speaking from personal experience) some employers will not cancel your RP when you leave the school. Instead they will only cancel the FEC. This allows a teacher to stay in china until the end of the RP and find a new position without ever having to leave the country.

The RP is only valid for another job in that city, and can't be transfered to another city in that province or to another province. So, you're back to square 1 if you can't get a job on your doorstep, as it were. There is however another problem - the teacher is put in class with his Z visa. The school delays for 3 weeks, and decides not to offer a contract! That leaves him in the lurch - no signed contract, no RP though he has a z visa. THAT SUCKS AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I'VE SCREWED THEM OVER VISA-WISE, AND AM PROUD OF HAVING DONE SO!

While there may be some short term benefits of working on non-working visas there are several problems that can develop in the medium to long term which could limit your flexibility. As one of the previous posters stated, there is a big difference between the interpretation of visa regulations by local authorities in china such as the PSB and the way a chinese consulate or embassy in a foreign country will view them. A previous colleague of mine recently had a problem when she went home for an extended period having been working on an L visa and then reapplied for a visa in her own country as she wished to return to China. The embassy refused her based on the fact that they felt she was using the L visa to work illegally in china (they were correct to assume this). Of course her passport was full of L visas which had been renewed over several years and it was quite difficult for her to deny the accusation. Perhaps you can share your experiences of how to deal with consulates and embassies in such cases.

I'm married to a Chinese, so I'm in a different category from your friend. In any case, I don't fly home. I prefer to spend my air fare allowance within China than waste it on air tickets. I have a degree from a UK university, and have initially worked legally.

Yes, that's right.

I certainly agree that whatever visa you're on and whatever kind of school you're working at you should always have a plan B or some kind of escape route out of china should things go wrong.

The fact that without being caught you have worked illegally does not mean others should follow.

Yes, that's absolutely true. But according to the official line, the fine for those caught in the act is 500 or 1000, in Shanghai, not 5,000. Though the new laws that will apply from the middle of 2013 will up that to a maximum of 10,000 for a foreign teacher who flaunts the law, if he is caught, Owen will only be fined 10,000 plus his thus- illegally-gotten profits, whatever they might be, if his guanxi deserts him, very unlikely in my opinion. His firm won't be put out of business, and he won't be deported!
Nige is probably not qualified on paper to merit the issue of an FEC. That's why he's teaching on an F. Can't blame him, but for his sake I hope he avoids detection by the PSB. In all probability, he'll be overlooked, but that's not absolutely certain. So, he should ensure he has sufficient cash available to pay his way out of trouble if things go pear-shaped!

Seneca, yes, Owen will "transfer" the employer fired teacher; however, the same greedy agent will provide another foreign face for the same greedy employer. This filthy agent does not support the teachers at any point of their employement appointment, although it takes a large part of their monthly salaries. In any case, offering another foreign face to a filthy employer, who does not have a license to hire foreigners, is despicable and in fact reprehensible.

Cheers and beers to "perfectly legal" :LOL

Anyways, enjoy your Spanish beer and the sunny weather. Summer is for a good holiday, not for summer school!
BTW, one of the agents foolishly sent salary details of all the teachers to each teacher. The basic monthly pay ranged from 4,200 to 6,500 after tax! Some foreign teachers got extra pay for teaching 'overtime classes', sometimes as much as 2,500 RMB! Surprisingly, an African, Q - - - - - - by name, full of himself as a great teacher, was only on 4,800 a month

Thanks for the info.

Of course not everyone is in a position to obtain a z visa and the risk is down to the individual but teachers should be aware of the potential difficulties of choosing to work on anything but a residence permit.

Exactly! And that's why I'm surprised by the number of foreign teachers in China who put themselves at risk of being fined and deported by teaching illegally. Even worse, there are some foreigners stuck in Guangdong jobless, short of cash and holding expired visas, so I'm told. They'll end up in the slammer before being deported. A major difference between the West and China is that it's possble to get out of sticky situations in China by spending some money, eg doing a visa run after paying a fine. But in the West, that's not an option. Another thing is that unlike in China, you'll be in serious trouble if you're identified as a visitor to the West on an L visa seeking work, whereas that's not illegal for Westerners in China! Even for those of us who follow the correct procedures here visa-wise and RP-wise, we could still end up in trouble if fired and skint, meaning we can't afford the air fare home! There is not a level playing field when it comes to the assessment of foreign teachers in the classroom!
Teaching illegally in Beijing or Shanghai or Guangdong is risky, I'd reckon. But I'd never teach there, even legally, as there are so many foreigners there. This gives Chinese employers in the field of education there too much choice, and means it's very easy for them to replace you.

Go to HK. for example, and re-enter. NO BIG DEAL!!

Normally, I would agree, but with the recent 100 day crackdown, and Guangdong's change in policy, it might not be so easy.

An American guy I met in HK, who was teaching on F/L visas in Shenzhen, was going through a nightmare as no agency or even the official chinese office in Wan Chai would give him a visa. Whether this is just against americans, or all nationalities, I am unsure. I do know prior to this at one agent I used to go to, a lot of FT's of varying nationalities who had come from Guangdong all had no option but to go home,or perhaps to thailand.

As for Shanxi (one a?) I would assume you would have no problem at all. The only problem is you may be placed on a blacklist.

Peace
SMGS

As for your final comment. If by that you mean you've got to have balls, guts, etc. to work illegally in china (or any country) then I'd agree but You'd also have to be lacking a large amount of sense.

I've met many chancers in China teaching illegally. I'm one of them, by the way. So long as they're not caught, their common sense shouldn't be questioned, in my view. But of course you can and have taken the opposite view. If I were caught teaching illegally next semester, it still would have been well worth it in my case. You see, I've been doing it for well over a decade. The fine in Shanghai/Beijing at present for being caught teaching illegally is a paltry 500/1,000 Yuan, and having to leave the country. Go to HK. for example, and re-enter. NO BIG DEAL!!

Even public educators in China in most cases are in it for the money when it comes to hiring foreign teachers.
The thing that's good about working for Owen is that he's damned good at matching foreigners with schools that will accept them. Bad foreign teachers or old ones or non-native speakers of English won't be posted where they're likely to be fired. Owen supplies most of his foreign teachers to public schools. The best public schools get the best he has to offer, and the bad public schools get the bottom of the barrel. It's good, all of us are making money! There are very few so-called hard luck stories emanating from Buckland Group.

If you get a monthly income as stated in a contract of employment then you are working and as such require a working (z) visa. You may get away with having an f visa but it is not 'legal' in the sense that Europeans and north Americans would understand the term. Personally I would never work for an employer who didn't offer me legal status (a z visa) in china.

Whenever problems in between employers and teachers arise, you know who will wash his/her hands of first.

I take it you mean schools and teachers, as Owen is the employing agent. He doesn't wash his hands first. He transfers you to another of his client schools. But if you work for a school that wants shot of you, you'll be out on your ear. Better with Owen - he looks after his teachers! He finds out quickly if the school is satisfied with you so that he can switch you to another one if your initial school has complaints.
F visa? Perfectly legal, as the other posters have said.

Hi , well after reading all the posts on bucklands id like to put my 2 cents worth in..My partner and i have worked for Bucklands for the past 6 months..Im Australian and shes filipino,who's been a qualified teacher for 13 years previously in the Philippines..We personally have never had a problem so far working for Bucklands, our salary has always been on time...sure its not the most highly paid position, but then again im only new to esl teaching and can't expect a huge salary to start with..Yes we are here on a business visa which some seem to feel is illegal..if this were so the chinese gov would be deporting on a daily basis,of course they know your teaching on a cultural exchange visa..their not completely dim witted..We originally got our initial visa's from the chinese embassy in the philippines who only issued us a 1 month business visa, we had no problems renewing it for a further 6 months, in fact bucklands flew us to Sanya from shanaaxi provence to get it renewed, it took less than 4 hours for fresh visa to be presented to us once there, free return flight, and 3 days free in a hotel, can't complain about that..Our apartment is on the school campus,well appointed, so its a 2 minute walk to classes, any problems we have the schools fao works it out..summer vacation we received half of our yearly bonus which was a godsend as most teachers dont get paid while on summer/winter breaks.If anyone would like me to elaborate further on our experiences at bucklands i'd be happy to..Brad_rehbein@yahoo.com

Add up the monetary value of your employment package, and post that on here. Include air fare allowance and vacation travel allowance as well as monthly salary and medicsl cover. by the way, you should receive your air fare allowance irrespective of whether you choose to buy an air ticket. Also tell us how many teaching PERIODS/week, including English corners, etc, your contract stipulates,and the length of each teaching period, probably 45 minutes. Finally, tell us if you will be paid your salary during the long holiday halfway through your contract. If you're getting an employment package with rent-free accommodation worth around 55,000 Yuan plus free private lodgings for a working week of at most 15 CLOCK hours for a 10-month contract, you've not been scammed. If teaching in Beijing, increase the 55,000 by by 10 percent, but if in Shanghai up it by 20 percent. That's the acid test. If Buckland passes it, you've not been duped.

JN,

Thanks, appreciate the time and effort on your part.

Interesting.

I may try to locate this guy, shouldn't be too difficult. I'm absolutely not interested in the position, however, curiosity and desire to 'grill' him are foremost on my mind.

Thanks again, oh, by the way, kudos for all the excellent posts you've written over the past couple of years. Often, I think that without your reasonable voice on this board, I'd go nuts reading the drivel here.

wdb

Today I have received yet another junk mail offering a teaching position from Fred. Who the Hell is Fred? Fred as usual provides almost no details, yet he hopes to entice foreigners to teach in Zhanjiang, Guangdong Province, and believes he can entice foreigners with a PhD!

JN..

Interesting. I live in Zhanjiang. If possible and not too much trouble, send me a copy of the material you received from Fred. I want to look him up and determine just what is his 'racket.'
Then, report what I find out about him on the board.

Thanks.

BUCKLAND GROUP SCAM - YOU MUST READ THIS!!!

IS OWEN BUCKLAND and his Yangshuo based BUCKLAND GROUP running a scam that puts foreign teachers' into illegal employment or has he been unfortunate in hiring a few pampered and ungrateful individuals who write unjustified complaints about his activities? Last time I checked, teachers are well trained and intelligent professionals who are accustomed to handling very tough situations so to suggest the latter is an insult. In my experience the former is definitely true and no-one should trust their fate to Owen Buckland.

I agreed to work for the Buckland Group and signed a contract on the understanding that legal employment visas would be obtained on my behalf. For 6 months I liaised with Ping Buckland by email because, despite multiple promises, I was not sent the documentation required to obtain an employment visa.

At one point Owen had me convinced that I only needed a "L" tourist visa which I had to obtain at my own expense. After making further enquiries I starting pushing him for a proper employment/working visa. He then convinced me that he would supply it so I spent more money getting medicals etc as required only to find that he was determined to offer me only an "F" business visa. I challenged him and he offered to accept MY termination of the contract which of course meant I was supposed to pay him a penalty fee!

You too could spend 6 months asking questions that will be ignored or getting responses that are often contradictory or making phone calls that will get you no closer to working legally in China but I don't recommend it. You too might be referred to people who have worked for and/or knew Owen Buckland personally him who give many assurances but listen closely for the details re "standard practices" and the "China way" will most likely only increase your concerns. Owen MAY be a lovely/great guy and all online complaints MAY have been lodged by petty/immature/spoiled people who just happened to be able to complete stringent educational programs but couldn't cope with China etc there is something very definitely wrong with the way he does business.

Standard practices include taking passports so visa applications can be processed and introductions are made to a local policeman who claims to have the authority to issue working permits but does not.

Chinese consular staff insist that anyone who wants to work in China MUST hold a "Z" employment visa which can only be processed if original (not scanned) official supporting documents are attached to applications lodged outside of China. People entering on China on a tourist "L" and eventually able to get the original documentation for a "Z" visa MUST exit China as a tourist, apply for the visa and re-enter as a worker. "F" visas are only for those engaged business and are NOT able to be used for working, even for short term contracts as Owen claims. There are no specially licenced organisations who are allowed to employ a special category of persons (ie foreign teachers of English on short term contracts).

DO your own research and DON'T believe 'convincing' but un authoritive statements from his staff or friends just because you want it to be true. Don't believe the attacks made on those who have the courage to speak out and try to save others from a lot of grief.

No-one should be so keen/desperate to work in China that they would risk their personal liberty for the sake of money - you'll get precious little of that working for Owen and risk detention and deportation to boot!

I have forwarded damning correspondence to Chinese and Australian authorities and encourage anyone else who has had bad experiences to do the same. I hope that an investigation will close this trap door forever and save more gullible/ill informed teachers the grief and worry I have experienced.

For doing this I have guaranteed that I will not receive the penalty fee he promised when he last emailed and angrily insisted that his workers are not doing so illegally...but given alll the above, I wasn't expecting it anyway.

Remember CONMEN are only successful IF they are CONVINCING and Owen apparently is...until pushed.