Chuck, Phil, and others

I am moving and continuing this discussion/debate thread here to the ESL Discussion Forum page of ESLTB for two reasons:

1) The thread no longer has much to do with any particular school (it started out about Best Time International/Dongguan see School Reviews page) and;

2) I felt this debate would become buried under the subject heading of the school in question, and would therefore be missed by a number of regular readers.

I have included Chucks posting at the end of my post to provide some context. Enjoy!

OK, Chuck! Lets discuss a few of your statements and/or points

Remember, its a business first for the managers and owners, just like selling cars, real estate, or pots and pans. But English is the product, and you and I and Frank and Tom, Dick and Harry are the real sales staff.

Sorry, uh, no.
THEY are the real sales staff, WE (the foreign teachers) are the COMMODITY. And as for its a business first that is exactly what Phil and I are talking about. They are involved in business, they seem to do nothing but solicit and take the money. That seems to be the extent of their business. All the rest seems to be entirely up to the foreign teacher.

Another quote: Phil, I wasn't the one that accused you of hitting a child

No, but, you suggested that perhaps he had. (Phil, am I correct?)

Frank, after spending the last 29 and 3/4 years teaching on four different continents, I think I've seen a lot. A lot of good teachers and bad, a lot of good situations and bad. A lot of good managers, business people, and politicians, and a lot of bad.

What exactly are you saying here, Chuck; that you are 29 years-old, or that you have been a teacher for 29 years??? And, does 29 years of age or experience give you a higher level of insight and understanding than the rest of us?

You continue: I learned a long time ago that the accuracy and truth lies somewhere in the middle between the two sides. And its usually nowhere to be found in emotionally charged situations.

Again, I heartily disagree! I think sometimes theres plenty of truth revealed in emotionally-charged situations. Its all the endless discussion and rhetoric that is more often a waste of time, and usually only leads to more rhetoric. Rhetoric is not always truth, sometimes its just a lot of wind-bag theory.

Again, you continue (I love this one): Just because somebody is a foreign teacher, and just because he's said he's been done wrong by somebody, doesn't mean he's right.

What exactly, does that mean, Chuck??? And can we please turn that logic around? Just because somebody is Chinese and they said a foreigner did a bad thing (like physically abuse a student) doesnt mean theyre right, yes?

Later on, you offer: Both of you might want to review some history of China of the last 50 years, in depth. Not the Chinese propaganda versions, nor the western propaganda versions, but some autobiographical versions. A book called China Blues by Jan Wong (a Canadian woman, one of only two foreign students in China in 1972) can be quite enlightening. (You will need somebdy to send it to you.) You may begin to understand why so many of their business practices are so corrupt and backward, and develop some ways of coping with them

OK, Chuck. Perhaps Jan Wongs memoir China Blues is indeed very useful and enlightening reading, but I dont agree its necessary to possess an in depth understanding of the last 50 years of Chinese history to figure out that someone has handed you an unethical employment situation in 2006, and how to deal or "cope" with it.

If you are going to suggest this to FTs, on balance, perhaps you also vigorously suggest this to recruiters and other individuals who aggressively persuade Americans, Canadians, et al, to come to China to teach. Usually the websites I see strongly urging foreigners to come to China to teach are more apt to say things like: No need to speak to Chinese, or We need you ASAP! etc. Never do I see one suggesting to any foreigner that an in depth understanding of the last 50 years of China (or reading Jan Wong's book) is a prerequisite for working and living here.

I seriously doubt when Chinese managers are engaged in an unpleasant or heated exchange with foreigner teachers that the Chinese manager is considering the past 50 years of American (or another western countrys) history. Im American, so I will use American examples The Chinese boss is not thinking about the Neil Armstrongs 1969 moon walk, Watergate, the meteoric career of Madonna, or even the Boston Tea Party for that matter, to explain our behavior or reaction to his antics (as you call them).

And your closing statement: And if anybody thinks that business practices in China are any more corrupt than anywhere else, you may want to step out of teaching for a while and step into the world of business and politics.

My, my, my, youve been a busy guy during your 29 years! Of course, you also imply that Phil and I and others have NOT stepped into the world of business and politics. Wrong!

Also, if the world of business as you call it, is not the same as education/teaching, then why do you refer to it as business in earlier section of your post? (Remember, its a business first) Wheres the logic?

More and more and more youre beginning to sound like my recent ESLTB sparring partner/poster John (a/k/a Dave, a/k/a/ Dave John, a/k/a another foreigner) Raoul Duke fondly refers to him as Bucky.

Its most interesting to me that Johns last contribution to this forum was on 14 August 2006; and then Chuck suddenly began posting prolifically on 18 August 2006.

John also told me of his numerous years of experience in business and education on multiple continents. Mere coincidence? Hmmm?

I recently suggested to "John" that he develop a new MO and turn up under a new moniker. Perhaps "Chuck" is it...

Chuck, if I might appropriate some of your thinking at this point: Just because somebody is a foreign teacher, and just because he's said he's Chuck, doesn't mean he's actually Chuck right. Right???

--------------------------------------

Phil and Frank. - ESL school review
Posted By: Chuck <crownpaster@yahoo.com>
Date: 25 August 2006

In Response To: Response to Chuck - ESL school review (Phil)

Phil, I wasn't the one that accused you of hitting a child; it was the people at the summer camp. I just wondered why they accused you of it. (Generally its best to come nowhere near touching children at all, not even shaking their hands or patting them on their backs. Even staying out of schoolyard games. Take your cue on this from local teachers. There are just too many things that can be read into our body language, their body language, and perceived notions!)

Summer camps can be pretty tough duty; they can really make you earn that money. But nobody ever really takes them too seriously. For the parents, its getting the kids out for a while and the status and bragging rights of spending money on their kids. For the managers, its advertising and a way of getting more customers. Remember, its a business first for the managers and owners, just like selling cars, real estate, or pots and pans. But English is the product, and you and I and Frank and Tom, Dick and Harry are the real sales staff. Really, if you truly want that good feeling that we all want from doing this, you'd probably find it best as a volunteer teacher somewhere in adjunct to your regular job.

Often, managers and teachers and staff can be utterly clueless about how to get things organized in something like that. Thats why they have so many meetings. And meetings really are a way of life for all of us, like them or not!

Don't let the problems become so insurmountable that you feel forced into a corner and feel pressured to do something rash or regrettable. None of it is worth it.

Frank, after spending the last 29 and 3/4 years teaching on four different continents, I think I've seen a lot. A lot of good teachers and bad, a lot of good situations and bad. A lot of good managers, business people, and politicians, and a lot of bad. I learned a long time ago that the accuracy and truth lies somewhere in the middle between the two sides. And its usually nowhere to be found in emotionally charged situations.

Just because somebody is a foreign teacher, and just because he's said he's been done wrong by somebody, doesn't mean he's right. Its not an "us vs. them" thing. As soon as it does become an us vs. them issue, the whole thing falls apart, and diplomacy and recovery may be lost.

Both of you might want to review some history of China of the last 50 years, in depth. Not the Chinese propaganda versions, nor the western propaganda versions, but some autobiographical versions. A book called China Blues by Jan Wong (a Canadian woman, one of only two foreign students in China in 1972) can be quite enlightening. (You will need somebdy to send it to you.) You may begin to understand why so many of their business practices are so corrupt and backward, and develop some ways of coping with them.

And if anybody thinks that business practices in China are any more corrupt than anywhere else, you may want to step out of teaching for a while and step into the world of business and politics.