In response to Re: moral dilemma? (Dragonized)

Wow, Dragonized, your response is encyclopedic in nature! I need a cup of tea just to deal with it. It must be one of the most thoughtful responses I've ever seen online, and feeling particularly guilty that I wasted so much of your time in provoking you into writing it, I feel I've got to reciprocate by doing it justice in reading it and responding in kind. Here it goes.

on the surface the Chinese students can APPEAR to be more naive simply out of the fact that their maturity level is not equal to their western counterparts.

It sounds like you are acknowledging that they are less mature. You'd have to agree that they are also more sheltered, I'd think, because they live on campus in crowded dormitories with no privacy. None of my students had a car, and maybe only a few even had a motorbike. Just compare that to a Western student having a car and either his/her own apartment or a dorm with just a couple people and less restrictions. Chinese students are much more controlled and have curfews and often have to get up en-mass at a certain hour and do exercises. A Western university student has far, far more freedom. They aren't getting drunk as often. They aren't smoking pot. They aren't doing LSD. They are snug in their little tiny dorm beds, like sardines, just like if they were in High School. Also, many of them come from the countryside and don't have computers. Most my students didn't even have a computer. Most of them had never had a boyfriend, and if they did it was just someone they texted on the phone.

However, the fact is the students in China will appeal to flattery to the western teachers and appear to be more naive and vulnerable when in fact they may be merely manipulating you about them being that way.

I hear what you are saying, but, I'm a fairly seasoned Oral English teacher who knows how to get students talking and put them at their ease. I'd taught children before moving on to the university, and getting students to express themselves was no problem. As for manipulating me, there was really no reason to try to do it. They were graded based on their participation level in class and general fluency. There was no room to manipulate. Back to maturity. Many of the freshmen were "fresh" from their hometowns, wearing clothing with giant Hello Kitty's or other cartoon characters on them, and there could be no comparison between them and freshmen in the West.

I remember reading a banned Chinese book which quoted a mixed White-Asian American Female reporter by the name of Sheryl WuDunn and quoted her along the lines of saying how being in China with a Chinese face allowed her access to the real China.

This is probably true, but it doesn't mean that students are less sheltered or naive than they might appear. OK, let's just say how sheltered and naive they appear. Completely! Actually, my freshmen students looked about as mature as Junior High students in America. So to say they are less innocent than they appear still keeps them remarkably innocent. I'm not saying they are all virgins (and I suspect there are those who are not because of family members…): one doesn't have to be a virgin to be innocent or naive.

Chinese students will generally not be as well mannered, have strong logical thought, and trust themselves and their own intuition when they are in a college environment as their western counterparts as well due to the cultural upbringing of keeping your opinions to yourself, but that doesn't mean they don't hold those opinions

Maybe I flatter myself too much, but, it seemed a fair amount of my students were fairly comfortable expressing their opinions. Well, I made them do it in debates enough times. But I completely agree that they are NOT encouraged to do that in general academia. Actually, it seems they are encouraged to memorize and regurgitate. A problem there is the hierarchy, because you can't question the teacher's opinion or conclusion without questioning his/her authority, and his/her authority is not to be questioned. On the other hand, if you are a foreign teacher who welcomes them to think for themselves and express their opinions of various topics, they are more likely to do so.

I cannot believe for a moment that logically there can be any GENUINE naivety with a group of people who are willing to forgo common sense and manipulate even themselves to the point where they forget how to form an honest, trusting relationship.

This is an interesting conclusion. I have to say my students seemed to genuinely form lasting, close relationships with each other. they hold each others hands in class. I'd see them everywhere together. Actually, it seemed because of their living in close quarters that they developed very strong bonds. What you are talking about, them having to be brainwashed (so to speak), and even self-monitor, self-censor, doesn't mean to me that they would not be naive or innocent. They hate all that stuff, which is why they tend to automatically like foreign teachers. I never had a problem of students not liking me. Having to abide bu cultural codes creates a kind of shackle, but this is designed to keep the populace naive. So, I can't agree with what you were saying. I got the opposite. I saw naive students forming lasting relationships.

Chinese soap operas on TV in China with how husbands and wives interact with one another, the lack of an ability to keep an honest and decent conscious saps even the most basic intimacy from the closest relationships.

Well, yeah, but we can't judge by Soap Operas. I knew some couples in China, and they could be very loving towards each other. But I do agree with you that in general, in Chinese culture, there in a cynicism and a constant need to jockey for social positioning, which is all a reflection of the condemnable hierarchy and the corruption endemic to it.

I agree with the idea that it is inappropriate to have a relationship with a student who is 21 and you are twice her age. You did however forget to mention that it should be inappropriate in ANY country, developed or undeveloped.

I thought that was implicit. It IS punishable in California, as I just read. Yes, of course, one shouldn't sleep with one's students anywhere, as a general matter of trust. People are only getting away with that in developing countries these days.

n your argument you merely attacked the individual who wanted the relationship with the student. What you didn't mention was justifying the higher moral standard that the teacher was supposed to bring.

You just hit the nail on the head. The teacher isn't just an instructor in a particular subject, but also a role model. I believed this strongly when I was a teacher. (I'm currently on holiday so some of it is mercifully slipping my mind, but I'll be back teaching very soon, just not in China.) And that is precisely one of the reasons to treat students as students, not as potential lovers or conquests. One should be showing them the value of integrity, and that corruption is NOT the best way to be in the world. Going out drinking with them and trying to be the cool kid on the block (while in one's middle age), and then thinking, "hey, I think I can get in this girl's knickers" is just a show of weakness and immaturity.

Your continued focus with seemingly attacking the character of the original poster won't make him think his actions are less appropriate, it would bring shame at the most which can backfire if he is in a weaker emotional state and will only drive him to go deeper into his pursuit with the relationship.

Yeah, but if he found himself seeking solace in a 21 year old because of something a stranger wrote on a forum, I think he'd realize he needed to reel himself back in and grow a spine. You are right that I've been heavy handed. It's because I've read a lot of the recent posts, and there's a lot of overtly chauvinistic posturing on this forum, and I predicted (rightly, it turns out), that such elements would encourage the OP. So I needed to use strong words and examples both because of who I was addressing, and because of the other vocal members in the forum.

Nobody ever said it was okay to date under-age students, the original poster certainly didn't. Your merely adding fuel to the fire for your own argument by putting others down with exaggeration.

That's not my intent. My intent is to get them to get out of the mere semantics of "they are both adults" to look at who the people really are, to acknowledge that one day (say before and after a birthday) could be the rhetorical different between absolutely wrong and doing the girl a favor by liberating her from Chinese sexual oppression. I want people to stop trying to hide behind words, like "adult" and look more directly at the real situation, at people, and circumstances. I am trying to get them to see all the grey area between completely wrong and doing a favor. In fact the situation is in the grey, dark grey.

But the fact is we don't control the behavior of others, we may only guide them. If you express your right ideas in the wrong manner, it may actually be used against you in the worst way and that is to ignore outright.

True. And perhaps one has to gamble with which tactic one uses with which audience. I still think being very clear that it is wrong and pathetic is the right antidote to the kind of retarded advice he will generally get here, that it is noble and altruistic. Often these men know they are weak. I had a friend who surprised me by admitting it. At one point he slipped out that he liked 18 year olds. Basically, he liked the youngest legal age, which means younger than that but the law keeps him at saying 18. Well, on another occasion he admitted that the women back home wouldn't even look at him. At least he was honest with himself.

Your reasons sound just and absolutely right on the surface (again) but you don't give a resolution or suggestions to the foreign guy on how he can find a woman out of the immediate vicinity where he works at.

My intent there is to deflate any claim they are making of being a stud. Obviously they aren't. They can't meet a real woman so date students. Fist off, whether or not they can meet a real woman, they STILL need to keep their hands off of students. But, if as some posters claim, they are God's gift to Chinese women, they should probably have a harem following them everywhere they go. As for meeting Chinese women, well, they are pretty much the receptionists everywhere, most the bank tellers, the waiters, you name it. They are put up front in the service industry. So, wherever you go you will meet Chinese women. I can recall a beautiful bank teller giving me her phone number and telling me that if I need any help I can call her. (I didn't, because she was too young for me). Actually, one gets that offer quite a lot, of calling them if you need any help. You will also find lots of women who will tell you they want to practice English. I've had beautiful women sit down with me when I was minding my own business sitting in KFC. Friends will introduce one to other people. I've been set up in China. Also, meeting Chinese English teachers can also be helpful. And while I didn't want to associate much with my peers at the university, because they often would be questioned by "leaders" afterwards, and I was trying to avoid any extra-curricular obligations, if one makes friends with some teachers and is genuine, that could lead to meeting really a lot of local people. But, in the end, does the poster want a real relationship with an independent woman, or just sex with a glorified kid? Y'know, sure, they are technically adults, but at that age, not only are they half the age of most middle-aged Lao Wai in China, they're half the weight! Some of them still have rosy cheeks and what looks like baby fat. They look like kids to me until they are seniors. Seriously. Freshmen are like babies to me.

your pre-occupation with seemingly winning the argument against the Magister poster would only turn off the original poster from considering your words.

I don't know which way that would go. But I do think this ring of guys boasting about sexual conquest in China needs to have some major chunks taken out of it, and simple logic can do that. In part you are reacting to my attempts to fight fire with fire, and beat them at their own game, which is posturing and strutting. If whoever yells loudest wins, and I can yell loudest, might as well do it, and then sit people down and have a proper discussion now that they will listen.

I don't think you think highly of the poster who started this thread, which means you already passed judgement against someone whom you haven't met either.

I think he needs a swift kick up the ass before he fucks up anymore. I would hate to have some middle-aged dude trying to fuck my students. And I know them well enough to know absolutely, that such meddling in their lives from some foreign prick is NOT going to liberate them or help them. It's going to tarnish them.

But I believe carrying a little empathy and realizing expats are in a lonely place with a need for company can give you a better chance at giving more ideas since you would be operating from a more open mind.

Yes, but if one is in a bar and there are 3-4 other guys giving high-fives, and that's what the OP is looking for (some justification for something he knows is weak and wrong), than empathy might not be the right tactic. I mentioned somewhere that when I was a grad student the dean of my department gave us a talk about dating undergraduates we'd be instructing. She was very clear. She said, "Don't do it. It's that simple." Then she gave us all the reasons why. Among them was compromising one's own authority; losing the trust of the students; creating jealousy and suspicion and rivalry; an creating an atmosphere of unfairness that was antithetical to the kind of utopia one would want a place of learning to be. She was right 100%, and if I'm ever in charge of teachers, they are going to get a similar lecture.

If I were to take the route of empathy, I'd tell him that, yes, students can be alluring, and there are many of them that will like you and who you will like. I've met students and thought, "Wow, I wish she was ten years older." And I've also thought that a goodly percentage of my students would make good girlfriends or wives, if there weren't the age difference, different citizenship, and other glaringly obvious reasons why we should not be involved. And I would say, "You have to be strong and resist temptation. You have to tell yourself that students are absolutely off limits. You have to stop socializing with them outside of class in situations that allow for flirting and so on. And then, miraculously, you will stop lusting after them as well, just as a person who quits smoking will often lose the craving. But if you think it's OK and you go forth with it, it will only get worse, and there will be more girls."

When you say "wrong" did you apply those standards to yourself as well? I'm not just talking about dating standards, but all around.

This is so interesting. I like your mind.

wouldn't ANY middle aged man who wasn't married and was single qualify as "wrong" by common sense standards of what is deemed as "normal" in any of the developed countries?

Wrong as in "there's something wrong with this milk"? You mean flawed or inferior? That's possible, but that's a different kind of "wrong" isn't it? That's "there must be something wrong with that guy" versus doing something ethically or morally wrong. This thread is about something that is ethically wrong, and even a flawed or unfortunate individual can rise up to not further compromise himself by sacrificing his morals and fucking with students and their lives.

Also, just to counter the notion that a single middle-aged man is "wrong," in my particular case I could have gotten married but always shied away from it because I quite literally value my freedom first, and also can't quite imagine only being able to have sex with one woman for the rest of my life. Having a wife and family means also having to have a secure job and that can mean having to take shit from the boss. I like being able to say, "Fuck off boss" and only have to worry about myself. If I were rich enough, I might be married, because it wouldn't be such an obvious threat to my independence. But in today's economy, one could lose one's freedom almost completely. Living overseas and being single allows me the most freedom of any of my friends back home.

I can though always improve myself with support whether they be coming from people or from more spiritual sources, but I wouldn't take the advice from someone who merely says, "You can't...".

One doesn't need to take that tactic with you. But some people who are in a quandary would like a clear answer from an authority. This is why people see mystics and such. I offer a clear argument, and a very clear answer. I don't want it to be too muddled or diluted in beating around the bush, or watching out for someone's feelings.

But being that we all have had varying life experiences with interconnecting points of commonality I would say that I should go with the general consensus of what constitutes an adult relationship, and in this case because I do not know the 2 individuals involved I should refrain from judgement.

Fine. One doesn't need to judge to say it's wrong. We all do stupid things sometimes, and make mistakes. I've done them (including signing up to work at a training school in China and ending up in the shittiest apartment I've ever seen). Everyone can also change. So, no judgement on the person, then, but, yes, this action will be stupid if he goes through with it. He should tell the girl, "I am a teacher! I should not get so involved with students."

We don't know the emotional maturity level of the poster himself, either and how much romantic experience he has. Let's hope he makes the right choice, but he shouldn't have to do it with the belief that we are on a higher moral pedestal than he is.

Sure. We are all born ignorant, and we all make mistakes, or get tricked or cheated on the way. If I could go back in time I would kick myself up the ass, like I want to kick this guy, about many of my decisions, because now I have more perspective and can see where I made some major mistakes. So here, I am just offering a greater perspective, and a better argument, and trying to keep the guy from doing something stupid. But, in truth, I'm more concerned about his students than about him. I know students at that level, and they are among my favorite people, and the idea of some middle-aged guy mucking with their lives and trying to have sex with one of them is a little infuriating. That some other men would encourage it is just pathetic and ugly.