Outside of teaching, it still has some of the best paid expat positions.

Also, many people (teachers included) have married Chinese women and have children. When you've set up a proper home, making the move elsewhere is not as easy as when you're a typically nomadic kind of worker. You've got to get visas for your spouse, arrange shipping, arrange schools for your kids,get yourself a new job there; save more money in advance than usual if that's going to be difficult etc. For some, exiting a country can take a while.

I have a masters in Educational Psychology and I have Qualified Teacher status in England

Okay so you are not a real HR person. Going to be tough finding the original documents for a job you aren't qualified for but are doing anyways. According to this nonsense situation anyways.

I am for all for freedom of speech but it does amaze me sometimes how threads on he deviate from their original toppic so quickly.

The reason I chose to reply to the thread was because you or others were mentioning the pitfalls of giving original documents to employers. Actually to an extent I agree with this. I just said and said it with proof because it is actually happening (and in fact confirmed by another poster) that if you start saying to employers 'sorry I can't give you the original copy for xxx reason' then they will show you the door. There is not much that can be done about it. It is a T-Junction, left, the FT goes elsewhere that for the moment is less strict, right, the FT hopes that the employer is trustworthy and follows the rules. Nothing more to debate really.

Regarding your comments regarding supply and demand again I agree to an extent but Western and Chinese logic is as far apart in some instances as the North and South pole. They do not see it like that. They have decided to implement these rules and it s upto them to see the end result. Of course if it is negative then someone would never openly admit it and someone would unimplement the rules.

My qualifications are academic but as you seem to be intimating that I am taking sides, I have a masters in Educational Psychology and I have Qualified Teacher status in England so I really am not as green as you are suggesting I might be cabbage looking.

Honestly, you could go on and on discussing these things but there is not really any mileage in it to discuss. It is the way it is. I find things in China annoying sometimes just the same as the next guy but I can't do anything except accept it. Furthermore I exist in China on a year to year basis just like everyone else and accept that anything could happen.

Your policy isn't entirely wrong either, but I'd say that you should have certain expectations of an employer. After all, they should need you more than you need them.

People have left because Nanning is on the nose. Traffic, pollution, rude and arrogant locals. I am not sure about the foreigners remaining being married to local women, maybe for the older guys, yes. There are still a few of the original foreigners who came here in 2007 to 2009, when apparently it was really good. Why anyone would want to marry a Nanning girl though, to find a good one, almost mission impossible!

>If anybody would have contacted your old school or employer it would have been your new employer. In fact the new system would inform them who that it even if you dont know yourself.

It was the new employer but what they did was tell the old employer that the authorities have all my documents and are just waiting for the release letter. As you mentioned, they (as in the online PSB and everyone else) they knew who the old employer was. It showed up instantly on their monitor. In fact, that is how the new employer knew exactly who to call.

At that point, the old employer is now hearing that my new employer has a very good relationship with the authorities and doesn't want to hold them up any longer. At which point the old employer (or at least their girl in charge of papers and stamps) gets really scared and starts panic processing the document and rushing it to the post office ASAP.

Which is how it works in China. They did not care about me phoning them finding out whats going on but they were entirely worried about the new employer and that the PSB people were waiting for that last thing.

I really dont know if there is some actual law stating they must supply the Release Letter but it seems to me once their year expires then they must give that up when requested.

btw i think that 'new system' has been around for around 4 years now. connecting all provinces.

And when China starts to clamp down on fake degrees, and demand MAs/State teaching qualifications from your own country for the public jobs (as in Taiwan), then that will be the end. Or just kindergartens for life in China, not something I would enjoy myself.

I agree with Martin. Release letters can be problematic even for teachers who have left on good terms and who have not done a bunk. Whilst I personally have never had to obtain one as I have been at the same school since I have been in China I have seen the rigmorole that other foreigners have had getting them and us as a school have in chasing them up.

Things do vary from province to province but as I have mentioned previously on other threads things have been much more streamlIned electronically since last year and all provinces are now connected through the same online system which deals with the initial application before it even gets to the SAFEA office. One of the documents being requested to be uploaded for an existing teacher who is in China is a release letter. If that is not uploaded the application cannot continue.

You make reference to the PSB getting involved. I am not aware of this being the case as by the time they are even involved in the equation SAFEA would have had to have issued an FEC. I am not saying you have been misled but probably are misinformed. If anybody would have contacted your old school or employer it would have been your new employer. In fact the new system would inform them who that it even if you dont know yourself. Again that amazes me that you did not know who exactly was employing you as I for one would want to be certain of that.

Everyone has their own opinions and that is their right but I would never advise someone to pull a runner. Of course some circumstances might dictate this as the only option but if you are intending to remain in China it can cause you considerable problems in the future, particularly with the new online tracking system.

No doubt someone will say I pro China this or whatever, I try to stay neutral but I have seen both sides of the coin and all it entails. As for other posters commenting on poor salaries, well I earn nearly twice what you say so for now have no wish to upsticks.

My policy: Your organization does the necessary hard work to ensure that I obtain a visa, or I'll work for somebody else. Changes in the rules are irrelevant. If you need to wait for me to do a CRC back home, you'd better wait for that whilst I enjoy a nice little holiday.

Your policy and that is your right. Mine is different from yours and not disagreeing, but I see it as, getting a visa should not become harder when it was once easy enough. That does not make any sense, esp, with esl salaries in china remaining stagnant vis a vis a higher cost of living. That's my two cents, not expecting you to agree, just my opinion.

John you make a good point here.

I mentioned before China has a peculiar 'double down' response to anything they see as critical or take as disliked. I mentioned less foreigners were arriving and the Chinese say "Oh.. okay then more should stay out!". That's a mentality.

But the other issue here is rightfully wanting less dumbasses here. So far the response to that seems to be super strict rules for THEM. As in notorious drunken party boys suddenly finding out little paperwork details aren't quite right and they have to return home or go elsewhere. Good I say.

But your best point is that simply creating stricter rules is nearly going to have the opposite effect. In this example: of the 20 native english speaking westerners we have only 7 or 8 who could be said to have proper teaching credentials (BA or higher, teaching degrees AND who have all the proper original documents, clean records etc).

All of them will or soon will go to Korea or Japan or the UAE (or one of those wealthy Gulf States). All of them. Bar none. Most did not come to China first either. One of them did and quite seriously lasted 2 weeks and was back in the USA by week 3 of a Uni semester in China.
Ok.

Truth is almost all the ESL or 'EFL' teachers in China are 'fudging' the B.a. or Uni diplomas BUT most have something. TEFL, a college degree even if unrelated to English or teaching in any ways, or they have technical or trade schools or they have IT certifications (whatever those MCSA or Oracle somethingorothers) and then they have some experience tutoring for example.

They can't quite get to Japan even though they are probably doing as well as the next guy or gal. They aren't quite qualified for a wealthy UAE school or Korea's now surprisingly strict demands for every original transcript and you-name-it.

These are the ones who will work in China though. They are more than qualified and IF they want to keep teaching overseas then they have less options and will stick around longer.

Eliminate them and cut down that lets-face-it fact that yes they are probably using fake or 'exaggerated' diplomas (as if a BA is even required) and yes you eliminate pretty much the core and all the best people anyways.

I really do think that yes it ends up the only ones left might be the outright scammers, scummiest of them all, the worst of the rejects who won't care if they forge everything, steal identities even, produce outright fraudulent documents across the board. (at least now we have legitimate documents + just an exaggeration or two at worst).

Anyways, far be it for us to think this through logically or in some 'common sense' rationale of course. Its not like that will win out anyways

I know of one guy who is obsessed with the 'brown and voluptuous' women in Nanning. Good luck to him...

I know that was not aimed at me, and yes the stricter regulations could attract those who would be prepared to jump through the hoops and go round the roundabouts to get that damned elusive chinese work visa. I know of one fellow british national, who likes to live and teach in a backward part of Beijing (and likes beijing a lot, more than HK), who went through their games. And all for a pittance teaching kids at some dodgy setup. Not for me!!!

Who cares? China is getting increasingly less attractive for foreign teachers and they may eventually find that they need us, much more than we need them. Not that they'll adjust regulations accordingly, but I think that you get the point.

Immigration wise, there is a genuine need to clean up in China and get rid of the scumbag foreigners; but unfortunately these stricter regulations could even attract more scumbags, as the desperate ones are more likely tolerate such shit for the sake of a rather average teaching job.

hanxi province really clamped down on this last September and word has it after the holiday
even further stringent checks will be introduced.

It certainly has affected the number of foreigners here. There were very few where I am and
now just a trickle.

Irrespective of whether you believe it or not it is happening here and rigidly being enforced
and it appears any amount of guanxi will not work.

I know a former Yuncheng FT who tells me what you say is absolutely correct. Shanxi has turned over a new leaf re the isuance of work permits to FTs. In the past most Shanxi FTs had few hoops to jump through - how things have changed there these days!

I'm retired. I think I will conclude by digressing at this point to forewarn noobs of two problems they may be unfortunate enough to encounter.

1) The first time they meet their new FT colleagues, make them aware that you won't lend them money. Non-native speakers tend to be the most likely FTs to be potential borrowers. The first loan request could be 1 or 2 hundred Yuan. You might end up being asked for thousands, step by step. So nip it in the bud before it happens! Neither a borrower nor a lender be. Tell them the first time you meet.

2) The cost of living in counties and very small cities can be much higher than in bigger places. This means you should factor this in when you negotiate your starting salary. Do not be taken in by any Chinese employer who says backwaters are cheaper, so a lower salary there is justified. That's a big lie!
For example, my last gig was in a Hunan backwater. I worked out that prices for meat, noodles, bread, fruit and veggies were 30% higher on average than in the provincial capital! The cheapest rolled mutton there cost 48 Yuan/jin compared to 28 Yuan/jin in Huhhot, Inner Mongolia.
In the Yuncheng area, the cost of living in a county or a small town is about 10% more expensive than Yuncheng City itself.
In Sichuan, a backwater is likely to be about 20% more expensive to live in than either Chengdu or Chongqing.

The only other option is to obtain apostled copies.

If you or any other FT has to do that in China, it's time to leave surely. All that for what, 5,500 rmb a month at a public job?

Vote with your feet, and wallet, and go to South Korea or somewhere they pay for flights upfront, like the gulf.

Ya it's really amazing how many foreigners I used to see in Guangxi and how many are leaving. Yes, it does seem like a few went to Thailand last I heard. Some said they were going to Vietnam but then I heard they actually just went back to the USA, UK etc wherever their home country was.

Now, i DID notice quite a few young Russians roaming about this winter. One told me they would have typically gone to Turkey for winter vacations but since there is a 'boycott' of Turkey somehow Southern China is the winter warmup getaway. (tho they may have been surprised how cool it was last week hehe).

I'm not sure what the hell is going on exactly but you are right that people are getting ruder. I mean its really really noticable to me now. Ruder to foreigners, less respect than ever. I attribute a bit of that to a huge influx of hustlers and a-holes who are moving into Nanning during its boom from the Changsha's and Beijing's and so on. But its really noticable in just the last year alone!

but the thing is - chinese tend to 'double-down' like nobody else can. the more leave the stricter they will get and the more they will show they don't need to be welcoming anymore and will be even less so. this is a strange mentality though ive noticed its becoming more popular in the west too these days.

I am in Guangxi also, the rules are not so stringent here and are not properly enforced. It is true that more foreigners are leaving China than arriving. Thailand seems to be the destination of choice. The reasons being "more friendly people and better weather" I can understand, given the very snobbish attitude of women here in Nanning, and the recent terrible winter, I can understand why people want to leave. I am done here in August, and won't be coming back. China in 2017? No thanks!

I find that very difficult to believe. I mean, I believe you but its just mindboggling that China would introduce this at a time when foreign teachers are leaving China at what seems to be a greater rate than arriving.

This would definitely screw up people like me. I did not bring any documents when I came here and the best I could do was have a family member locate a copy of my original diploma (the original long gone after sitting in a mildewy cardboard box in a damp basement). So the copy was scanned and email then I passed on to PSB via online application.

I'm sure I know a dozen foreigners in China with similar situations. Some chose to take only copies of their diploma. I don't blame them because I wouldnt want to risk 1.losing it in transport 2.it getting physically damaged 3. stolen and more. So instead they took a professional printed colour copy.

but anyways, as of a 2 weeks ago no such requests were made here in Guangxi province. I don't know of any such rules mentioned by my guys here but im sure that its coming.

But i have no idea why they'd look for that at a time when foreign teachers are simply leaving one after the other. Of the 20 foreign teachers here there are now only 10 left and 4 of them are confirmed to be leaving at the end of the next semester. So far only 1 new foreigner has come in for an interview and he seemed totally disinterested and never came back. I can confirm this is my last year.

But are you in Bejing or Shanghai or a popular Tier 1 location?

You should never, ever, give anyone original copies of your documents. I am a bit puzzled as to why you did this. As for China, yes, ESL is basically crap there, and is getting worse. You could even say the same about China itself. [edited]

Many universities can offer replacement copies of your diploma these days; for a cost that is roughly the equivalent of $50 USD; if you are a younger graduate you may wish to enquire with your university about this. This service is usually intended for the likes of people who lose their diploma in accidents such as house fires etc. However, the embassy is a good bet for taking action; the government doesn't like being hassled by any embassy due to the actions of such a small company and will probably make sure that that particular company pays dearly. After all, keeping your documents, would be theft.

China is increasingly becomingly one of the less attractive places to work. The economy is buggered and there's no longer any kind of sense of optimism in the air. I'd suggest that you only work here if you get offered mega money or have Chinese family members or other such interests here. Some of us are only us here, because we have been here for so long that we'd be sad to leave or have a lot to deal with when making the move back; many people who've got married and had kids tend to be timing their moves to coincide with their child starting at primary school.

You never give any employer, especially in China, original copies of any document. You should not have given it to them. I hope you did not give them original copies of your degree! It is ok to do a runner if you don't intend to work in China again, but you need to get any original copies back if your school still has them. Ask your embassy for help if need be. A threat from the embassy usually works. China is just one country, there are heaps of other places where you can work.

Please give some advice:

I have been an esl teacher for a relatively long period now. I completed my contract with my first school and received good references from them. I joined another school soon after but to my dismay the new school operates in a ruthless and unethical fashion leaving most (rather all) the teachers unhappy, disillusioned and disgruntled.

All attempts by teachers to discuss their grievances with the managers basically led to nothing being done although the false impression is created by management that they are paying attention to these problem areas. (not the case at all).

These problem areas just escalated and certain teachers resigned. (I will elaborate regarding these problems at a later stage and in more detail but they are similar and believe me worse than the ones I read about on this site). These teachers experienced terrible hardship and hostility from management after their resignation. As a result, the next bunch of teachers just made a run overnight as they did not want to face any possible traumatic incidents with management. They were all competent individuals who didn't actually want to leave in this fashion, but they felt they had no choice due to management's ruthless attitude.

I myself reached a stage now where I also want to leave and I also have to admit: I am considering to make a run too due to the unbearable conditions here, but I also don't want to be confronted with the possible consequences.

To start with: When I joined (along with all the others) we were requested to hand in all our original release letters and college certificates for inspection. We were told these documents will be returned after a few days. Well it never happened. When I requested mine I was told I will receive all my documents at the end of my contract. I was not happy, although I keep copies of all my documents.

My question is: What are the chances to find employment in the esl field again with only copies of previous companies' release letters? Is it true that companies want the original release letters? How will they react when you tell them you made a run due to unbearable circumstances? I worry about these aspects but at the same time, this place where I am now is absolute hell. How should one handle a situation like this in general? Most teachers who join leave soon after.

Thanks in advance