Raoul Duke
- 2006-07-20
KJ,
I would only quibble with one point.
I definitely agree that the state of education in China, including but not limited to English education, is absolutely disgraceful.
I don't argue that there's not an awful lot of whitey propped up in front of classrooms right now that have no business whatsoever being there.
However, I place the blame for this (or at least 99.99% of it) squarely on the shoulders of the school owners/managers and they system they represent. They're the ones who set the standards- or lack thereof- not us. They're the ones who make the hiring decisions, not us. If these people were really concerned about the quality of the education instead of just keeping up appearances, carving out little personal empires, and trying to get everything on the cheap even if they have to cheat and lie to do it, the entire structure and dynamic of education here would be very different indeed.
Recruiters are scum and don't really enter into this conversation. They are the parasites that can only infest an animal that's already sick in the first place.
KJ
- 2006-07-19
Yes indeed, you are missing the point. No need to defend yourself dude, or is that dudess? Either way, take it easy, life is too short to be getting all uptight over the little things. Beyond that, I'm still waiting for you or anyone else to point out to me where or how I've attacked you or them.
Frank
- 2006-07-18
Ah, haaa... So you are also the elusive DB!
Listen, my friend, my comrade... I have lots to respond to regarding your latest to me, but it's time for bed and I have a 4-hour IELTS training class to teach first thing in the morning, and several tasks thereafter... I'll get back to you within the next 24-36 hours, OK?
You really hit it with "Fool me once..." which is increasingly becoming my mantra over here.
Hang in, and keep cool...
F
mj
- 2006-07-18
chiz! did i say that blogging defines a writer?!?! i'm not taking anything personally, this is just a forum anyway, but u're giving me the impression that u are not actually missing the point but u are trying to deviate from the real issue so u can have something to argue about with somebody? is this some kind of a bragging type of stuff?
writing has different aspects,like music has different genres, u may be good in writing something like this (discussion forum) but u may not be good in my field of writing. do u get my point? i know from the very start that almost evrything bout english is integrated to each other.
i know that age per se, u've gone far and have done lots of things but that doesnt mean that u are already an expert on "vibing" (since u've been judging me thou we havent met yet) someone's capability.
i dont care if u think im not qualified as an english teacher because i didnt claim anything, just like u, i know i have my flaws but NOT enough to tag me as a wanna-be as implied in ur reply.
guess, u've been here long enough to know what's really going on the "english" educ'n system.
by the way, u're book is entitled "if u cant make it, fake it and if u cant fake it f**** it?" could u give me a gist of this? it's quite odd.
and yeah, did i mention that i used to write on TV? well, i guess that doesnt make me a incapable of writing, i was hired by one of the top broadcasting company in my country...not bragging neither am i tryin to convince u that i can write...
i've said my part, if u wanna keep this kid's stuff goin on, im on for it...
mj
- 2006-07-18
whew! does this mean that this forum will be infested with people who would just knock off some amateurs if they think that an indiv'l is just a second rate? chiz!
well, i really wish u the best of luck! i'll include u in my prayers.
Frank
- 2006-07-18
Many thanks, mj!
I get a lot of pleasure from visiting this forum. At different points during the past year, I had been visiting Dave's ESL Cafe (and still do, a little) but I find it to be a rather hostile place, with the usual hard-core skeptics ready to pounce and "kill the messenger" when one doesn't personally pass their strict acid tests. I find this place much more hospitable, lively, and illuminating -- often due to Sir Duke, and several other regular posters.
However, as I understand it, His Dukedom is buried under book deadlines, and after a flurry of job interviews in recent days (past and future) I will be busily testing the waters at various schools around town in the coming weeks. (Wish me luck!)
In other words, we may become and less less present in the coming days and weeks... (I really can't speak for Raoul)
I am American, 52, going on 86 (if you know what I mean...)
Keep posting, I'll keep watching and opening my fat mouth from time-to-time.
Keep cool... F
KJ
- 2006-07-18
Hey I'd love to read your blog, not that blogging does a writer make. But where is it?
Why do I equate writing ability with teaching ability? Because teaching writing skills is an integral part of teaching a well rounded EFL class. Granted, the majority of schools in China are looking for "Oral English Teachers," but even that requires a certain amount of writing.
And hey, don't take it so personally. I have no doubt that you are a very intelligent and maybe even wise person. However, I'm still not convinced you have the skills to make a real difference as a teacher. Hell, I'm sometimes not convinced I have the skills. I will say this though just to give you something to chew on: It is often more the little things that make a difference than it is the big things.
mj
- 2006-07-18
how can u gauge someone's ability in teaching english thru writing? well, im not gonna waste my time in arguing with u on that.
ok, im not a bonafide teacher because i didnt dream to be one. it just happened that i spent sometime teaching koreans and felt that i could use this VOCATION in going abroad(that would give me the chance to travel).
by the way, i write feature articles (television per se). i was a writer/segment prod in one of the 2 biggest broadcasting in my company. u can visit my blog if u wish to prove my capability in writing.
i rest my case.
mj
- 2006-07-18
i'm new in this forum and im really enjoying reading your posts!
i'm hoping if we could broaden the scope of the topics, i mean not just focusing on school stuff. like if we could talk about anything (i.e, politics, books, movies) and categorize it. or maybe u are a member of a site where i could join u.
by the way, im just curious, how old are u guys?
KJ
- 2006-07-18
Yes indeed Frank we do seem to be walking similar paths. And I too have waltzed through many careers in my life - or is that stumbled? I've also been to more than a few cities in China and have, like you, made my sometimes unhappy way through the maze that is the EFL game here. Yep, I've gathered from past postings of yours that we are similarly disposed to say the hell with any school or situation that doesn't live up to their promises. Gone in 60 seconds, as it were. In fact, my well bred patience quickly took a back seat when it came to dealing with any degree of dishonesty from employers or recruiters and I now happily thumb my nose at them, literally and figuratively, whenever they display even a minor amount of dishonorable behavior. You know the old saying, "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."
However, I am still keenly interested in seeing this through to the end or through to a level of excellence as it were, and I think you are too. I could be here forever. On the other hand I could leave tomorrow. Don't really know for sure. I seem to be like "the dust in the wind" these days; albeit, while I am here I won't back down from my commitment to the students of this country who, as I've said before, have a genuine interest in making their lives better and/or improving the situation of their country. Nor will I back off from my belief that those students deserve the best possible English training we can provide them.
In a way I guess I am a little harsh when it comes to my "attacks" on unqualified teachers, but really I am not only espousing my own beliefs but also echoing the sentiments of many, many students. Also, I've been here long enough now to see how the backback EFL teachers approach the job, and I just can't help being displeased. I honestly believe Frank that there are many people in China that doubt our commitment to provide quality education merely because they have witnessed so many glaring examples of just the opposite.
So again I say that though our displeasure for the unscrupulous recruiters and employers is well placed, we need also to take a long hard look at ourselves as educators, and we need to ask ourselves some serious and probing questions about our motivations, our commitment and even our abilities.
------And for those of you out there who think that even marginally qualified teachers shouldn't be dissuaded from teaching in China, consider this - because many of you have learned money as L1: As long as China continues to employ such teachers - those with or without certs who can't demonstrate any real classroom ability or desire to improve their teaching skills, those of you who have worked hard and studied hard will not be adequately compensated.--------
Well anyway Frank, please never believe that I would deliberately attack anyone. Yeah, sometimes I get to rambling on and it can probably seem to be a little scathing. But generally, that is not my intention. I just like to kindle thought and kick back and see what happens. Right now I'm waiting for someone to point out to me that I spelled emnity wrong in my last posting...........you see, I too must work on my writing skills..........lol. And beyond that, well, sometimes I have a hard time getting my toungue out of my cheek. Or is that my head out of somewhere else?
Keep the peace Frank,
KJ ( aka DB)
KJ
- 2006-07-17
Nope not Chinese; albeit, I'd just as soon be Chinese as not. Truth be known, I'd rather just be considered an Earthling. Extraordinary national pride leads to Nationalism. Nationalism creates enmity between nations. "Pride cometh before the fall."
Please point out to me where I have castigated anyone for their nationality. If you can do so, I will happily post a retraction. The truth is that I believe there is more that unites us than there is that which separates us.
My contention is rather simple actually. The quality of English education in China is deplorable, and the reasons for that do nor rest solely on the shoulders of the administrators of English programs. Nor should the scam artist recruiters and illegal schools be singled out, even though their actions are despicable. No, we the teachers, must take a long hard look at ourselves and our fellow teachers and must ask some meaningful and probing questions regarding, not only our skills as teachers, but also our apathetic acceptance of the status quo.
Well then, I'm glad to know I got the ball rolling and I'm not even surprised that my rambling observations have been slightly misunderstood. It's also interesting to note that past postings I've submitted under a different nom de plume that have taken a more positive slant about life and EFL have gone largely unnoticed. It has been said that in terms of communication in our species we tend to gravitate toward the negative, and that while doing so we love pulling others down with us. Hmmm........I'm still meditating on that one and fervently wish it were not so. Either way, if I have been guilty of obscuring the light, my heartful apologies are hereby offered.
And no Raoul, I have no interest in editing your writings. But I do still find it rather interesting that would be teachers haven't taken the time to refine their skills as writers or communicators. Even messages posted here in this forum by experienced teachers are often rife with mistakes - grammatical and otherwise. And in that context I feel that it is never too late for self improvement. And oh yeah, that applies to me as well - still trying to "remove the mote from my own eye."
Frank
- 2006-07-17
Wow, KJ! I think you had many of us concerned about your recent vitriol!
Thanks for taking the time to turn down the heat and explain yourself a little more.
This latest posting of yours gives me a rather different impression of you, and for a moment, I thought I was seeing my doppelganger when you stated: "I left a 40,000 dollar a year job in America because I felt I could help young people in China who are genuinely interested in improving their lot in life and the standing of their country in the world community. But I've been in China for three years now..." That is the same case with me ($40K back in the USA, three insane years in China).
I imagine you and I share dozens of the same frustrations here. I continue to perhaps foolishly believe that if I can push through some of the unprofessional and unethical conditions here (among other things) I might truly find a work situation for the long haul.
Perhaps my crazy quest comes from the fact that although China presents a host of troublesome bumps along the way, the one thing that has been consistent for me is the "happy marriage" I share with my students -- one far richer than I could have imagined. No matter where I've taught here (and this dog has peed on lots of hydrants) the students and I embrace and learn from each other well.
I've had numerous "careers" in my life, but for me this one is the best "fit." Despite so many days where I fight the urge to scream (and sometimes I lose that fight), I feel genuinely useful here and recieve so much personal reward from my students. In this way, I feel quite lucky here.
Good luck to you, and thanks again for the clarification of your feelings and experience.
Raoul Duke
- 2006-07-17
I think I thought KJ was Chinese. Now I don't think he is.
Oops.
Still hate to see an entire group castigated that way, though. Especially one that I'm part of.
KJ
- 2006-07-17
Had you read the post a little more carefully MJ you would have noticed that I was not singling out any particular race, although I was implying that in regards to your writing you didn't demonstrate the abilities necessary for teaching English. But for the sake of the argument, I will agree with you that many of my countrymen - even though you don't know what country that is, couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag. And I'll further agree with you that some of them are here now attempting to do just that. Unfortunately, they are reducing the quality of English education in China and, by the mere fact that they are teaching here and accepting positions that qualified teachers wouldn't accept, they are proving to unscrupulous schools and recruiters that they needn't worry about finding someone to fill those positions. In essence it just adds fuel to the fire and does nothing to decrease the amount of corruption in this business.
As for my qualifications and why I'm not teaching elsewhere? I left a 40,000 dollar a year job in America because I felt I could help young people in China who are genuinely interested in improving their lot in life and the standing of their country in the world community. But I've been in China for three years now and maybe I'm ready to move on. Have any suggestions about where I can make 40,000 bucks a year without returning home? Qualifications? BA Asian Studies and Second Language Acquisition. Certificate in Teaching English as a Second or Foreign Language. MA Applied Linguistics and TESOL Methodology. PHD in B**l S**t. Author of "If You Can't Make It, Fake it. If You Can't Fake It, F*** It - An ESL/EFL teachers guide to teaching abroad."
Okay, you got me on the analogy about driving. Should have taken more time on that one. Good thinking MJ.
Ok, didn't want to stir up a hornet's nest. Just putting in my two cents worth. Next time I'll turn it down a notch. If I inadvertantly offended you, my sincere apologies.
Good luck and keep the peace.
Raoul Duke
- 2006-07-17
Oh, my, such a case of wounded national pride. Well, good, because it could use a little wounding. You can expect more to come as time goes by and China tries to integrate with the rest of the world.
I agree with you that a lot of the alleged English I see posted in these places makes MY teeth hurt, too, and some of the people trying (or pretending) to teach English are simply wankers. (Patrick, however, was just having fun with you. I tried to tell you that back in that thread, but you simply read his one post and saw red. Which, of course, is exactly what Patrick wanted you to do.)
I also agree that there are some great students here who really want to better, well, at least themselves. These are the ones worth reaching.
You're seriously misled, however, if you think either of these cases represent the majority of the real situation out there.
I've been in this country a long, long time and I know an awful lot of English teachers. Most of them are well-educated, intelligent, devoted people who take their jobs more seriously than the jobs deserve.
I've also taught in universities here. Good universities, too, and I think I acquitted myself honorably enough there. I got a load of what these places are really like and I want no part of it. I have no interest in ever teaching university classes in China again.
I don't even want to talk about middle schools. You don't have to see many classes of 150 doing rote memorization to get an idea of where they're at.
The bottom line is that the primary driver to most education here is pure, naked greed. Oh, and control...lots of control. The administrations I saw couldn't have cared less about education. They were too busy raking in the money coming in from both tuition and bribes. Ever seen a poor school owner or principal or dean? I sure haven't. The Chinese teachers were too terrified to complain or buck the system...the favored ones had noses in the trough themselves, while the unfavored ones had to surrender their work documents and were just trying to stay in a job. The vast majority of the students never showed even the slightest glimmer of interest in learning anything. They just wanted a grade and a shiny piece of paper at the end, and they were willing to lie, cheat, steal...ANYTHING but actually do any work...in order to get it. I used to have to tell many of my classes that if they'd work as hard just doing the assignments as they did trying to find ways to cheat their way out of them, they'd all be 'A' students.
This whole system, top to bottom, is rotten to the core...at least by those international standards which you like very much to tell yourselves you live up to. Everybody likes to say this stuff isn't happening, but anyone involved with the system for any length of time knows it really is. Those good students you referred to certainly knew it, and they hated it at least as much as I did.
The Education Ministry? Sure, they showed up once a term or so. We always knew about it because the schools would warn us a couple of weeks in advance that the inspectors were coming. Everyone had plenty of time to temporarily clean up their acts and find a tie. When the time came to give the exams and post the grades, though, there would be nobody in the henhouse but the foxes.
So yes, there's a few laowai teaching here who probably shouldn't be. However, most of us have absolutely nothing for which we need to apologize to you, or which we have to explain to you. The quality of the teachers in a system will ultimately only be as good as the quality of the system itself, so don't come crying to us if the teachers suck.
By the way, from what I see the Filipinas ARE chiming in on a pretty regular basis, and seem to be doing a pretty good job of it. Rock on, ladies! 
And finally, if you see any significant problems with my English, please point them out to me if you can. Typing errors don't count!
mj
- 2006-07-17
kj (does this stand for killjoy?)
seems like i hit a fiber of nerve there.
i guess u missed out the point. have u been reading the discussion on certs on this forum?
Personally, I could care less about this issue of
certificates or degrees being necessary or not necessary in order to get a job in China (well, it doesnt seem to be that way).
I am however concerned, as most qualified teachers should be, that so many of you seem to think that China is some backward country that could care less about the quality of English education. (ohh..did i make a point on that? chiz!what made u assume that many people think that china is a backward country when it comes to english education?)i just said that schools prefer teachers with certs) hello!
Granted, you will find schools and/or recruiters that will hire you would be teachers faster than you can pack your backpacks, but believe me they don't speak for the Chinese people as a whole and definitely do not speak for the Chinese Education Department. There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of students, that are genuinely interested in bettering themselves and their country. And many students are interested in continuing their studies abroad and therefore keenly aware of the need to sharpen their English skills. The fact that you can carry on a conversation in English and maybe put together a couple of sentences down in writing without a mistake (haven't seen you do that yet), doesn't qualify you to be their educators.(whew! look who's talkin', didnt u know that alot of ur countrymen came here without even finishing any degree though not all.i've noticed the errors i've committed mr. know it all beforehand but i didnt know someone will get too picky about it.)
Ok yeah you can go be a clown somewhere without credentials, but I doubt you will ever manage to get a real job in a real school that has the legitimate right to hire you; furthermore, even if you do manage to somehow fake your way into one of those schools, it will be difficult if not impossible for you to mask your obvious inability to fill the position responsibly. Case in point: The plural of company (Patrick) is companies, not companys. And here's a real laugher (Patrick), college is not spelled colledge. (FAKE? duh? i was just asked by my head to sign for another year in this LEGITIMATE and KNOWN institution) and why the hell do u care about ptrick's stuff? i think u are an assuming genius (or genius in ur own right?) but why are u here when in fact u can get a better job in ur country with a higher salary? my credentials? u might just get too embarassed of what a 23 lass had achieved.
As for the rest of you who cannot even demonstrate a high school level of writing ability in this forum, what do you think qualifies you to teach English? The fact that you can speak it? Get real. I can drive a car, but that doesn't qualify me to race in the Grand Prix. (certs equated to driving a car and qualifying a grand prix? illogical! why not driving a car and having a driver's license? it makes sense right? )
Regarding whether or not Phillipine speakers of English are qualified to teach in China, my point is the same. All you've managed to convince me of is that you need to rid yourself of the notion that China is some backwater country that will hire any Tom, Dick or Harry that can speak "adequate" English. (did i convince u with that? or did i even make a point on that? i didnt think of china that way...)chiz! my sole point was tesol cert doesnt prove one's capability in teaching english...
However, lest I be labeled a bigot, let me add that there are many educated Phillipino speakers of English that would be extremely qualified to teach here, regardless if they are certified to do so or not. Unfortunately, I haven't seen them chiming in on this subject in the last few days. Those of you who have had a thing or two to say, in my opinion, better further your educations and for now rid yourselves of the delusional notion that you have the ability to teach ESL/EFL here or anywhere else.
(FILIPINO. talking about education, what did u finish? i mean, u sound like u're well educated, but what are u doing here? u could use ur "high" EDUCATION as implied, in a country that can offer u a higher salary)
i didnt mean to be nasty but i guess u're missing the whole point? or maybe u just want to prove to this forum that u're some kind of an analytical-critical indv'l?
chiz!
u sound so defensive!
peace in between
Personally, I could care less about this issue of certificates or degrees being necessary or not necessary in order to get a job in China. I am however concerned, as most qualified teachers should be, that so many of you seem to think that China is some backward country that could care less about the quality of English education. Granted, you will find schools and/or recruiters that will hire you would be teachers faster than you can pack your backpacks, but believe me they don't speak for the Chinese people as a whole and definitely do not speak for the Chinese Education Department. There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of students, that are genuinely interested in bettering themselves and their country. And many students are interested in continuing their studies abroad and therefore keenly aware of the need to sharpen their English skills. The fact that you can carry on a conversation in English and maybe put together a couple of sentences down in writing without a mistake (haven't seen you do that yet), doesn't qualify you to be their educators.
Ok yeah you can go be a clown somewhere without credentials, but I doubt you will ever manage to get a real job in a real school that has the legitimate right to hire you; furthermore, even if you do manage to somehow fake your way into one of those schools, it will be difficult if not impossible for you to mask your obvious inability to fill the position responsibly. Case in point: The plural of company (Patrick) is companies, not companys. And here's a real laugher (Patrick), college is not spelled colledge.
As for the rest of you who cannot even demonstrate a high school level of writing ability in this forum, what do you think qualifies you to teach English? The fact that you can speak it? Get real. I can drive a car, but that doesn't qualify me to race in the Grand Prix.
Regarding whether or not Phillipine speakers of English are qualified to teach in China, my point is the same. All you've managed to convince me of is that you need to rid yourself of the notion that China is some backwater country that will hire any Tom, Dick or Harry that can speak "adequate" English.
However, lest I be labeled a bigot, let me add that there are many educated Phillipino speakers of English that would be extremely qualified to teach here, regardless if they are certified to do so or not. Unfortunately, I haven't seen them chiming in on this subject in the last few days. Those of you who have had a thing or two to say, in my opinion, better further your educations and for now rid yourselves of the delusional notion that you have the ability to teach ESL/EFL here or anywhere else.