TEACHERS DISCUSSION FORUM
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#1 Parent Caring - 2016-04-14
Re Panama Papers

I agree with you but our cultures are as guilty and Panama Papers may prove that as well. CIA agents, for instance, may stash the taxpayers money to invest in projects/missions beyond our comprehension. Or, perhaps that's what they think. So, there are many more "prostitutes" in the west where things are supposed to be more civil than they realy are. Allowing shell companies that have Chinese/Russian signatures too not only assists culprits do their crimes but also puts us all in precarious situations. Just imagine the amount of money and what it may be used for.

#2 Parent San Migs - 2016-04-12
Re Panama Papers

The whole sick culture is based on everyone "prostituting" themselves, be it from those god awful team building exercises you see restaurant staff being forced to do outside restaurants, to being summoned to some activity on your day off, or your boss calling you at night at some ungodly time and demanding you work on something. It's not a very humane culture in that aspect.

#3 Parent paul fox - 2016-04-12
Re Panama Papers

It's funny.....when I wrote that post I used the word 'dash' but changed it to the word 'hyphen' seconds before I hit the 'submit' button, just in case Amused was not 'amused' lol

#4 Parent amused - 2016-04-11
Re Panama Papers

Indeed. You are correct. My error.

#5 Parent Dubius Maximus - 2016-04-11
Re Panama Papers

That's exactly the right teaching position for you.

#6 Parent Dubius Maximus - 2016-04-11
Re Panama Papers

You should not be using a hyphen in place of a semicolon, or what is done more often, a colon.

You should use a dash, which is a different animal and can indeed preface an explanatory clause, although students coming out of secondary school for the last few decades don't know the difference.

#7 Parent Caring - 2016-04-11
Re Panama Papers

You are quite an amusing teacher, but you are a terrible listener. What's the topic?

There are distinctions between elements of grammar and stylistic choices and they are complex. My original comment was in specific response to 'Caring's sentence -
"The implication that suggests some of the highest ranked officials in some communist nations have stolen the wealth from people is interesting; that especially in the country where there's such a crackdown on corruption."
What we ought to fear is the GDP that has a residue of red money. The amounts of shell companies in our nations are worrying. From seemingly insignificant restaurants to listed corporations, our tax bureau legally collect from highly questionable people. Perhaps, one of my students, who's got the Residence Permit in her passport just stamped way before her graduation which is next year, would be able to explain all that to us somehow. So, let's not be amused as much.
#8 Parent paul fox - 2016-04-11
Re Panama Papers

You are referring me to American style manuals. English per se, is not an American language. They took it, bastardised it and now use a slightly different form with different grammar and spelling 'rules'.

If you have read any of my longer postings on this forum, you would notice that I often use a hyphen (-) where I COULD potentially use a semi-colon.
Is it 'grammatically correct' or just 'common usage'?

The style manuals do not agree on a 'semicolon solution' because there isn't a 'solution' - and that's probably why the semicolon has arguably fallen out of common usage.

You suggested that the style manuals prefer to use a preposition, and given the choice, it's also my preference, as in :-
'from Los Angeles in California, from Nashville in Tennessee and from Beijing in China' etc, but that still doesn't make the previously cited uses 'wrong'.

The word 'ain't' is common usage but is considered 'slang'.

In your original 'complaint' about the way Caring used it, I agree with you.....

"The implication that suggests some of the highest ranked officials in some communist
nations have stolen the wealth from people is interesting; that especially in the
country where there's such a crackdown on corruption."

If the word 'that' is removed directly after the semicolon, he wouldn't be using it 'wrongly' - at least not as far as I can see.

#9 Parent amused - 2016-04-11
Re Panama Papers

I refer you to the AMA, MLA, NYTimes and Chicago Manual's of style. I suspect that in your google search you chose a 'wiki' guote in preference to these style manual's because the 'wiki' writer describes common usages, not correct grammatical or stylistic elements.

'Aint' is also common usage.

The style manuals do not agree with the 'semicolon solution' that www.grammarbook.com suggests for handling lists with commas imbedded. They prefer to include the preposition in each of the listed locations: .... from Moscow, from Springfield, California, from Alamo, Tennessee and from other places as well.

There are distinctions between elements of grammar and stylistic choices and they are complex. My original comment was in specific response to 'Caring's sentence -
"The implication that suggests some of the highest ranked officials in some communist nations have stolen the wealth from people is interesting; that especially in the country where there's such a crackdown on corruption."

#10 Parent paul fox - 2016-04-11
Re Panama Papers

Whilst I am happy to argue the point here, I am not going to argue with Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicolon

A direct quote from their page is as follows:-

Applications of the semicolon in English include:
• Between items in a series or listing containing internal punctuation, especially parenthetic commas, where the semicolons function as serial commas. This is by far the most frequent use currently.
o The people present were Jamie, a man from New Zealand; John, the milkman's son; and George, a gaunt kind of man.
o Several fast food restaurants can be found within the following cities: London, England; Paris, France; Dublin, Ireland; Madrid, Spain.
o Here are three examples of familiar sequences: one, two, and three; a, b, and c; first, second, and third.

This is almost exactly the same as my previous example that you said is grammatically wrong.

Another citation, this time from https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/semicolons.asp says, and I quote :-

Rule 3. Use a semicolon to separate units of a series when one or more of the units contain commas.
Incorrect: The conference has people who have come from Moscow, Idaho, Springfield, California, Alamo, Tennessee, and other places as well.
Note that with only commas, that sentence is hopeless.
Correct: The conference has people who have come from Moscow, Idaho; Springfield, California; Alamo, Tennessee; and other places as well. (Note the final semicolon, rather than a comma, after Tennessee.)

I went and found the above examples AFTER you told me I was grammatically wrong, so I would be most interested to hear your reasons why.

#11 Parent Paul Greene - 2016-04-11
Re Panama Papers

Nobody cares about your stupid grammar lessons. You are a useless good for nothing troll who should be banned from this site.

#12 Parent paul fox - 2016-04-10
Re Panama Papers

That's my point entirely. Why is it not grammatically correct? Semi-colons are essentially a 'super comma', and as far as I am concerned, in British English my example of using them for clarity is accepted as being 'not wrong', so by definition, correct.

Just because we don't LIKE something, doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

Grammarians have argued for centuries over what is 'right' and 'wrong' and I am sure they will continue to do so, willn't they?

When there are arguments of validity on both sides, stating that something is 'wrong', (despite common usage), is as meaningful as saying there is/isn't a god (lower case intentionally used because I am not a 'believer')

#13 Parent amused - 2016-04-10
Re Panama Papers

I have a sister in Nanning, Guanxi; also Shenzhen, Guangdong; as well as Nanjing, Jiangsu;
and Chengdu, Sichuan.

Both sentences are 'grammatically correct', and as it's ME that's writing the sentence, I can
choose which one I want to write.

Even a second semicolon in a sentence separating independent clauses is a matter of grammatical dispute.
Serial semicolons separating dependent clauses, as displayed in your example, are not grammatically correct.

#14 Parent San Migs - 2016-04-10
Re Panama Papers

As a funny diversion, your post about grammar reminds me of a time at a certain university in China, when a Canadian teacher who was asked about the correct usage of "who" in a sentence by a Chinese student speaking shyly and slowly, retorted back "Who gives a shit!", I had to bite my lip at that one, especially as the poor student in question did not clock on at all.

#15 Parent paul fox - 2016-04-10
Re Panama Papers

'After a semicolon, you need a complete sentence' ???

Well in your mind, what constitutes a 'complete' sentence? We're taught that it must contain a subject and a predicate, but must it?
I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, but grammar 'rules' change due to English usage. If suddenly 'I very like' became common usage, then it's perfectly OK to use it, despite the rules saying otherwise.
Since all 'sentences' need a verb, is 'Go!' or 'Stop!' a 'complete' sentence? - Many people would say 'No', but others would say 'Yes'.
If you insist on a predicate then what about 'I am' as a contender for the shortest sentence?

As for your semicolon argument - how many sisters do I have in the following sentences? Or rather, which sentence is more clear as to the number of sisters I have?
Do I POSSIBLY have 8 or DEFINITELY have 4?

I have a sister in Nanning, Guanxi, also Shenzhen, Guangdong, as well as Nanjing, Jiangsu, and Chengdu, Sichuan.

I have a sister in Nanning, Guanxi; also Shenzhen, Guangdong; as well as Nanjing, Jiangsu; and Chengdu, Sichuan.

Both sentences are 'grammatically correct', and as it's ME that's writing the sentence, I can choose which one I want to write.

Personally, I think that FT's have enough 'rubbish' to contend with, with Chinese-English teachers telling kids they are 'wrong' when they are not - (Oh, and did I just use the word 'with', TWICE? - That's grounds for 'execution', right?)
You may have seen from one of my previous postings that I complained about a Chinese teacher telling a student he was 'wrong' for saying 'We will have a party next Saturday', instead of 'We are going to have a party next Saturday'. The reason....?; well, in Chinese they would say 'We PLAN to have a party next Saturday' and as such, 'We are GOING to....' is a much 'better' choice - at least in HER opinion!

Then there's the colloquial uses and the differences between American English, British, Canadian, Australian etc etc etc.

For me, if kids are 100% wrong, as in 'I very like', then I give them slow torture, but if they are not 'wrong', in a 100 years who will care anyway?

Just as a footnote, consider this for a moment......

If you had a time-machine that could travel 500 years back in time or 500 years into the future, and you used it, how much English do you think you would understand and how many people do you think would understand you?

#16 Parent Paul Greene - 2016-04-10
Re Panama Papers

Hopefully you will heed my advice and avoid the pitfalls and misery of marriage to a Chinese gal. I could save you a lot of money!

#17 Parent Paul Greene - 2016-04-10
Re Panama Papers

Yes, the typical tactic of accusing one poster of being another. Silverboy and his pals left Nanning long ago, almost a year ago to be precise. Who are you, the last one the team to know? If you go to Pattaya , a city in Thailand, you might bump into this Silverboy character whom you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with.

#18 Parent amused - 2016-04-09
Re Panama Papers

Thank you for the career, marital, and prostitution advice, Mr. Greene.
It is not everyday that you meet someone whose area of expertise includes all three

#19 Parent Bleh Blah - 2016-04-09
Re Panama Papers

How many avatars does Silverboy have going now?

I've lost count.

#20 Parent Paul Greene - 2016-04-09
Re Panama Papers

At least they decided to get a life instead of trying to be an esl hero in China. You are only there [edited]. And before you denigrate men who use prostitutes, remember, the current minimum requirement for marriage in even poor Chinese provinces is 100 000 rmb and purchase of a car. On the more developed east coast it is five to ten times that. Many Chinese women are very willing to prostitute themselves, in stark contrast to what you have to say. Go home and get a real job [edited]

#21 Parent amused - 2016-04-09
Re Panama Papers

No wonder there are few FTs that wish c
to contribute to the board.

Apparently few foreign teachers contribute to this Teachers Discussion Forum because they are busy chatting with pimps on WeChat, chasing whores in Thailand, traveling to HK to replace their meds and tourist visa, hungover in one of their many Australian estates, or [edited]

#22 Parent Caring - 2016-04-08
Re Panama Papers

It looks like Amused and Dr. Turnoi project their feelings onto the forums out of a queen sized bed together. Or, perhaps it's a left and right hand of the same forum thug. Pardon my observation from this obvious situation. This is how the Panama Papers topic have become a filthy bed sheet of a couple of sideshow bobs. How sad this can get for the readers or anyone who'd like to participate? No wonder there are few FTs that wish to contribute to the board.

#23 Parent Caring - 2016-04-08
Re Panama Papers

So, David Cameron admitted his guilt. What are the Chinese doing?

#24 Parent amused - 2016-04-07
Re Panama Papers

Your reading comprehension ability is as limited as your writing skills and ability to reason.
Pardon my continued absence from this discussion while I better invest my time attempting to teach my dog French.

#25 Parent Dubius Maximus - 2016-04-07
Re Panama Papers

Thank you for the pedantic lecture, but since my source was a full professor of advanced English grammar at San Francisco State University (with a degree from Berkeley), I'll stick with his opinion.

If you want to come in here and decide who's qualified or not to teach you will need more authority than he has.

As for your third paragraph, which implicitly destroys your own argument, we can note that it is just as easy to "mishandle" meaning but retain correct grammar.

We also note that you are factually incorrect, since "Swiss German has NO real grammar rules."

http://deutschdrang.com/dir/swiss-oddities/linguistic-free-for-all/

#26 Parent amused - 2016-04-05
Re Panama Papers

complete grammatical "sentence"

There are no 'partial' grammatical sentences.

at least by
1993

Your meaning is "as early as 1993".

";that, and ...."

Referential demonstrative pronouns after a semicolon are NOT grammatically correct.

The important thing is communicating
one's meaning.

Grammar is a critical tool in communicating meaning in all languages. Once it is mastered, capable writers can and do choose to 'break the rules' to express subtleties of meaning and emotion. It is very easy to distinguish when correct grammar is being calculatedly avoided and when it is being ignorantly mishandled.

the English teaching and writing community

If there were such a community, you would be required to wear a scarlet letter.

#27 Parent Dubius Maximus - 2016-04-05
Re Panama Papers

The requirement for a complete grammatical "sentence" was discarded at least by 1993 in the English teaching and writing community. The important thing is communicating one's meaning.

The only problem with the writer's sentence is that he did not put a comma after the word, that.

";that, and ...."

#28 Parent amused - 2016-04-04
Re Panama Papers


The implication that suggests

All implications suggest.

some of the highest ranked officials in some communist nations

Some officials in some countries are always doing something.

; that especially in the country where
there's such a crackdown on corruption.

After a semicolon you need a complete sentence.

What do you guys think?

I think you shouldn't be teaching English.

Caring - 2016-04-04
Panama Papers

The implication that suggests some of the highest ranked officials in some communist nations have stolen the wealth from people is interesting; that especially in the country where there's such a crackdown on corruption. What do you guys think?

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