More Lunacy! - Teachers Discussion

Mr. Bucky,

Your ongoing responses are becoming so evasive of reality that any response beyond hand gestures is becoming more and more difficult.

But I'll try. At least briefly.

You're still citing extra double-secret information the rest of us don't have in the Yi case, which is of course hard to comment on. But actually, that question is yielding in importance to another one: are you really so desperate that you feel compelled to actually go out and research damning evidence on teacher complaints that you have no connection to whatsoever? Don't you ever drink beers or kiss girls or travel or anything?

Wow, John (or Bucky) (or David)...I have to admit that I'm in awe. It's really hard to fight against insanity on this scale.

Let me try my hand at reading the future here, just for the hell of it. I see you trying to contact the saints who own that Neusoft franchise. If you can get them to even admit that they've heard of this 'Yi' person (the goat entrails are murky on this point) then I see...gasp! Can you believe it!...I see them having a...a..DIFFERENT version of the story! And, of course, I see you accepting their side of it without question.
Maybe I'm wrong; this column is published purely for entertainment purposes.

As for Hemingway, who I must point out is a REAL PERSON living in an entirely different country than I'm in, you've completely managed once again to miss the point.

In the 3-4 pages of self-serving wanking you offer us, you merely repeat the same meaningless charges you spewed up before as you've inexplicably worked to discredit Hemingway's entirely factual account of events. The POINT was that you denied you jumped into the attacks Hemingway's review, and you denied implying that Hemingway's account was unreliable. Of course, you've clearly done both of these things, and all these lame bleatings about Hemingway using poor conditions to paint a full picture of the situation in Huaibei, or about his not also including the positive aspects of a school that led a gang of strange students to harass and beat him, will not distract many away from that fact.

But I have to take issue with your repeating of the filthy lying garbage about how since you've never been harassed and beaten by a student, it's just not possible that Hemingway was...with the implication that the beating, if it happened, was the spontaneous uprising of outraged students against an unpopular teacher. What a load of blinkered, egocentric rubbish this is! And even better, you back it up with the stereotypical and hopelessly outdated truism about respect for teachers in China. Any foreign teacher who's spent much time teaching university classes, and who doesn't live in the fantasy world of rainbows, leprechauns, and unicorn ponies that the lithium you take apparently puts you in, knows that modern uni students don't always have much respect for foreign teachers. Well, maybe a bit during the period between final exams and grade day... Otherwise, there isn't always much respect there...especially if the Party-hack school administration, who owns the students' gonads for 4 long years, tells them to go on the attack. Which is eactly what happened here.

Hemingway speaks the truth, John/Bucky/David. I KNOW this to be true. You are calling Hemingway a liar. Therefore, the liar very plainly has to be YOU.

OK, enough. Already more than you're worth.

Attitude! - Teachers Discussion

Wally,

Forgive my lack of insight, if I'm wrong (a limitation of mine), but your point in a nutshell is:

'Don't come to China unless you're a trained teacher who will work or at least apply for a post at an international school. Generally all other schools and posts are breeding grounds for abuse where you will never really be considered a teacher or be given any respect.'

You've made a good point, but there are two points worth considering. First of all given the track record of China and the fact that many international schools in China are still often run under Chinese administration can you be sure that foreign teachers will not run into any of the common problems FTs run into at other schools? e.g: Broken promises, lying and cheating, and disinterested students.

Undoubtedly there is great credence in a teacher stating that they've been TRAINED to teach, and thus being able to say that they are a TRULY qualified teacher. But couldn't we phrase it more succintly and say? :

' A truely qualified teacher is one who has a proven track record of helping, motivating, and guiding his students to effeciently increase their learning of whatever discipline he has been teaching.'

Admittedly the above criteria is often hard to guage, but is it not true? We can talk until the cows come home about qualifications, degrees and teacher training (and I'm not saying any of that is invalid), but I have witnessed teachers in China with the ALPHABET after their name, with doctorates from big name universities in the States, who not only did'nt seem to have a clue in the classroom, but didn't seem very much motivated either.

Of course as teachers we all want to be respected as professionals. What every teacher should consider though is whether he's more concerned with IMAGE or CONTENT. (I'm talking to teachers in general here) Are you a good teacher because:

You carry around a wad of degrees from Harvard, and MIT etc., because you have letters after your name, and you are a doctor of this and a professer of that, and you've trained at this school, and have that certificate, and people pat you on the back, bow, and address you as Sir, and you work at the most prestigous university in the universe, and...?

Or,

are you a good teacher because you love your job and take pride in it, you like and care about your students, and you're in class everyday on time fully prepared. Because you really want your students to learn and if there's anything holding you back from increasing their learning, for instance a lack of teaching skills or subject knowledge, you are going to damn well work hard at it everyday, forever, and keep on improving those two fundementals through application, experience and research?

How true it is when people say teaching ESL is not rocket science. It is an art, and a not too difficult one either. You do need heart, desire, sympathy, determination and patience etc. We don't have to work at international schools to be teachers in China or anywhere else. Fundementally, It doesn't matter where you work, or WHO considers you a teacher or not, students excepted. Wherever you work, make your classroom you're own little world. Leave the politics and swaggering outside of the classroom. The only location that's important is the classroom. It's what goes on in there that matters! It's just yourself and the students.

Whether you are a qualified teacher depends on your pride in the job and the results gained from your ATTITUDE to teaching ESL.

What kind of teacher are you?

Qualified or Stay home - Teachers Discussion

All of the "Stuff" regarding teachers in trouble in China is lack of prep.
If you are not a qualified teacher applying and not accepted for an International school (List available online...you must have a teaching credentail not a fly by internet buy...) STAY HOME.If you think because you can speak the language you can teach it ...GET QUALIFIED. If you read endless ads about jobs for those who want to "experience China"...Yeah right... where else do you get this....
Oh I like cars and would love to be a mechanic...
Can I go plwy at the Ford factory....I can ......but can you?
Don't treat Chinese as stupid and don't be stupid once you get here if you come with nothing.You are nothing. A BA is worth it Buggar All.An easy visa transition for youyr school but NO teaching hell they have a country full of B.A's as workers earning 50 US a month...
God Mexicans are exploited in the US, female women in India,Arabian women and kids,,,,children in Thailand,Manila and Russia. You go or get taken if you don't know!
A Teacher studies to become a teacher and then gets a good well researed job in a school anywhere.
It's just common sense.
Last word
Over and otta here.

Response to Mr Duke - Teachers Discussion

There are thousands of educational establishments of all kinds operating in China. Mr Duke tries to paint a picture wherein he would have us believe the vast majority of these are crooks and liars. Now he expects us to believe that many of them hold their teachers in some form of servitude because they have other responsibilities (haven't we all?) or simply cannot find other jobs or are intimidated by a philosophy that they can like it or lump it or move over to let someone else have a turn.

I don't doubt that there are schools who act in this manner and that there are teachers soft enough to put up with it. However, I do not believe the numbers of such places is as predominant as he evidently believes. It is easy for foreigners to get teaching work in China, so apart from the legal requirements one has to go through to get a new visa - there is no bar to teachers seeking alternative employment. I AM also aware that there are scurrilous schools lying in wait, so great care is needed in choosing who to work for and who to avoid so as to reduce the risk of jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Conversely, nobody should think he is guaranteed a "good" job in China as if by God. If you work in China there is a certain degree of risk even for those of us who are experienced. We all need to do research before we jump. Those who do not do such research well enough, (or at all), often end up as casualties. I have worked full time for three schools in China and in my spare time for a few others.

The first job, I took for the summer on the understanding that I would be retained thereafter depending on the available workload. I did a lot of research beforehand so I had a pretty good idea of what to expect - though I did also have a few surprises though these were of no significant consequence. In the event, there was not enough work to justify retaining my services so the job came to an end. I was treated well in the few months I worked there. I was paid in full and on time. The other staff, both Chinese and foreign alike were all happy with their lot. The owner was a nice guy and his wife fussed over me like I was her own son. When my crunch finally came, the Owner gave me proper notice and found me another job at a higher rate of pay with a government senior middle school.

This new school also treated me very well. Nice apartment, no restrictions, regular pay etc. It was a well-run place and I got along well with everyone. The only reason I left was because I didn't like working with classes of nearly a hundred students.

At my present school I am paid even more and treated even better. I also work with smaller classes. I have no intention of leaving here in the foreseeable future.

I also help out with two private primary schools and these too are well managed and the staff are all happy. I am paid in full and on the dot.

I also move among other foreign teachers working for schools in my general vicinity. Whilst some of these talk about other people's past horror stories none of them appear to have such stories of their own. I think my situation is fairly typical. Mr Duke, however, may not agree with this, for he is one who can only see schools in a negative light.

In conclusion however, I think Mr Duke has made a very significant and true statement. He says: "The number of foreigners coming here has exploded in recent years and we are not the pampered, coveted rarity we once were. There are now so many foreigners here that schools don't have to be careful to keep one" I think he is quite correct in saying that.

I also think that his problem - for it is clear he has one by the way he criticises Chinese schools with a passion - is that the days have gone where foreign teachers in China were 'stars' who could perhaps throw their weight around and get their own way fairly easily. I think, maybe Mr Duke mourns the passing of his once elite status and is left feeling rather bitter at having to accept that he is now just another one of the boys.

Please accept, Mr Duke, that what I have just written is in no way meant to be a dig at you. Times always change, though and if you think nearly all Chinese schools are crooks and swindlers, or if you miss the days when you were a big-shot, then you have the right to leave if you wish, for those times are not going to return. However, if you choose to stay, then accept the overall, prevailing conditions in China today.

John

Response to Mr Duke - Teachers Discussion

Hi again, Mr Duke - touched a nerve or two have I?

Your Para 1 - Bullshit! You have earlier made it clear as day that you consider practically all schools in China to be crooks, across the board. It is beyond your mindset to criticise any teacher even when it is obvious that criticism is deserved.

Your Para 2 - Of course I take issue with complaints where I "personally" feel there is something wrong with them or their content. Are you suggesting that I should first check with you to see whether my "personal" opinion is acceptable for publication? Moreover, I have only suggested dishonesty where it is evidently present. The two long postings I have taken issue with so far, were not accused of dishonesty for being long and Mr Hemingway was not accused of dishonesty at all - do please check up on these things!

Your Para 3 - You are wrong again Mr Duke - I did not "jump into the middle of Mr Hemingway's account" (of Huabei Coal Industry College). Here again you have failed to do a single shred of research. Well, I have.

Mr Hemingway made his first (and only) posting back in March. This was followed over a period of several weeks by eleven replies including several that were attacking him quite sharply. Only two of those eleven postings were mine - and one of them was in response to someone else rather than Mr Hemingway himself - though it was connected with Mr Hemingway.

I entered the scene with posting No.6 a long time after Mr Hemingway had made his own and I stuck ONLY to the presentation of his complaint, which I thought was un-necessarily long for such a simple matter. You have put into quotes the sentence "deliberately untrue and misrepresented information" as if I had accused Mr Hemingway of such. In fact I said no such thing about Mr Hemingway nor did I imply it. Indeed if you care to go back and read that first posting of mine in direct response to him you will see that I roundly accepted his remarks about the town, the college, its staff and their attitudes etc. The words you quote were said to you in general unspecific terms well after the Hemingway matter had gone away and therefore you cannot possibly claim that I intended them to include him.

A problem with you, Mr Duke, is that you can only read what you want to read - and if what you want to read isn't there to read, well, Hell! you'll quote it anyway.

My response to Mr Hemingway was then attacked by "OverseasTeacher" but only in the context of my statement that I had never been jostled or jeered at by any students as had Mr and Mrs Hemingway. Overseas teacher said that he had been jeered at and jostled many times and claimed it was normal in China for this to happen. (In fact it is not!) Here again what reference I made to Mr Hemingway's posting in my response to "OverseasTeacher" again accepted Mr Hemingway's earlier remarks about his conditions though I did point out that they were not unique to his college but pretty well typical of such establishments all over China.

Now go check on both postings I made in connection with Mr Hemingway and stop trying to convey incorrect impressions. I am now certain you are doing this deliberately and it diminishes you and brings your objectivity into question.

Your Para 4 - Your comments about "Mr Yi" and Nanhai Neusoft are grossly inaccurate and your latest posting to him is bordering on being obsequious. Further information has since emerged and Mr Yi (if that is his real name) has dug himself an even bigger hole. Moreover, have you considered checking on the pedigree of the establishment that you so glibly call a "bunch of lying crooks"? This is called "research", an activity alien to you is it not? I suggest you take the trouble to have a look and you'll find it is a large and highly reputable organisation with affiliations to many overseas universities - notably in the United Kingdom. The college itself is set up by Neusoft, the biggest computer software company in China with thousands of employees on its books. I am aware of course that even the best run establishments can sometimes act strangely or wrongly - but not so often as you would wish to believe. Reading the Nanhai-Neusoft website - as I have, Mr Duke, I simply cannot believe that they are "lying crooks" and I stand by my claim that there is a lot wrong with what Mr Yi has said. (If his name is Yi- and I have very good reason to doubt that too).

Here we have a major institution of international renown, backed up by impeccable credentials and supported by some really major worldwide educational institutions of the very highest repute. Do you seriously think that such an organisation would jeopardise all this by deliberately victimising a small group of temporary teachers for no good reason? Why don;' you try asking a question or two of your own - or might that get you some answers you could not live with?

Whatever happened there was because something went wrong once he and his colleagues got to China. Until Mr Yi can bring himself to come clean about every step of the way which he certainly has not done to date I will choose to put my money on Nanhai-Neusoft Information Institute (Its proper name!). All he needs to do is to produce a relatively simple and truthful time-line of the events and procedures he and various parties performed along the way. If he cannot or will not do that then he has something to hide.

If you think differently, thats your privilege.

Then, Mr Richard Prouty climbed aboard and claimed among other things that Nanhai-Neusoft has a notorious reputation in Guangdong. I did my research on that too and searched the review boards back as far as 2004. I found not a single complaint about Nanhai-Neusoft. If they are so "notorious" in Guangdong, where there are thousands of foreign teachers, surely a fair number of complaints would have been made. But not one can be found. They also have similar educational institutions in Chongqing and Dalian but no complaints appear about them either. These people aren't notorious at all.

Your Para 5 I Dont think Dr Cross made any mistake at all. If he had made a genuine mistake in doing whatever it was that was serious enough for the University to repeatedly try to stop him doing, then he would not have been complaining about it. Instead he would have corrected it instead of making a dispute about it. Why also did he see fit not to tell us what it was - and the one person who posted in his favour claimed to know him well and also confirmed that Dr Cross's privacy was not respected. He too failed to say what it was all about, however - and it evidently didn't apply to him either, otherwise he would have complained too. So it only applied to Dr Cross.

His receiving a letter of confirmation that he could break his contract was not as a result of any mistake on his part. His decision to run away was not a mistake either. He did that quite deliberately and illegally. The fact that he was found by the police and ordered to leave the country was no mistake either. It was a clear and well deserved response from the authorities, to Dr Crosss illegal behaviour. He even considered that to be unfair!

Many of the countries I have visited and/or lived in over the years would not look on Dr Cross so benignly as the Chinese did. Moreover, his Consulate in China would not wave some magic wand of absolution in a case such as his. All they would do would be to ensure that he got fair and proper treatment under Chinese law for his transgression. But then he seems to have got this without his Consulate's intervention.

Your Para 6 My case for exposing suspicious complaints is that they are at least morally wrong. It is not acceptable to tell lies or mislead your audience by quoting only part of the causes of your complaint or telling lies. This is only being done to whitewash the plaintiffs who have no interest in "warning" us but appear to be bent only on wreaking personal revenge. If they have a real and serious complaint it should stand alone on its own strengths but if it has to be constructed, modified and contrapted in the ways I see going on here. If really important details are kept concealed and have to be extracted like pulling teeth, then such complaints are usually misrepresented.

Your Para 7 Frank is a better guy than you are, Mr Duke, at least he is prepared to listen, consider and then offer his own opinions in a measured way. Neither does he seek to spread false impressions by making untrue statements such as you do. I have however taken issue with Frank insofar that if his takes on Chinese schools are genuinely intended to introduce a little humour then why does he not be fair and do a few takes on teachers resumes too. I can assure him and you that there is plenty of humour there too. But neither Frank nor you will hear of that will you? Thats because your attitudes are solidly biased. They are founded on your warped belief that you have the right to declare war on schools in general for no good reason other than that some of them are dishonest and devious. How unfair and unbalanced can you get you guys arent running a forum - you especially would be more aptly described, where the issue of schools vs teachers is concerned, as preferring to run a Star Chamber the second time I have used that term today.

Your Para 8 In this paragraph you say that I have stooped to a level of nastiness Please justify that accusation without weakening yourself further by claiming that the principle of challenging bullshit complaints is itself being nasty Instead, accept that at no time have I been nasty towards anyone. I have made not a single aggressive, abusive or gratuitous attack on anyone. That is more than I can say for some of you guys who are basically incapable of viewing this subject objectively. I await your substantiation, please.

Yes I did say that I would ignore your further postings but I have changed my mind. What intrigues me though, is that if you really want me to ignore your postings, then why did you go to the trouble of writing your latest one?

John

On Thin Ice! - Teachers Discussion

John say, "no matter how dodgy these schools may be, they must be keeping most of their teachers happy most of the time."

Oh, my, but this is such a dangerous and untrue assumption! Tunnel vision is such an ugly and crippling disease!

I've worked in plenty of places in China where every single teacher, from the DoS to the newest arrival, was extremely disgruntled and itching to get out. And no, these were not a bunch of lame whiny-butts...in most cases their unhappiness was quite justified.

These people stayed where they were not because they were reasonably satisfied with their situation, but for other reasons. Some took a while to find a job that wasn't obviously even worse. Some had spouses and other SOs that limited their mobility. Some hated the school management with a passion but cared about the students so much that they were reluctant to move on.

And, of course, many schools here operate on the "Here's the deal; if you don't like it there's plenty more where you came from!" basis. The doors on these schools revolve constantly...some leave, others come in. If they can't keep enough teachers in the stable, they often respond by increasing the hours of the teachers that are left...sometimes without an increase in pay. (I've seen this happen!)

The number of foreigners coming here has exploded in recent years and we are not the pampered, coveted rarity we once were. There are now so many foreigners here that schools don't have to be careful to keep one. Of course, the fact that many of these foreigners are fresh off the plane and don't really know what they're getting into is just fine with the schools.

So, please don't buy the "most of us are happy enough" line. It ain't necessarily so.

Response to Wally - Teachers Discussion

So right, Wally - I agree with your observation about the Discussion Forum being dominated by a few.

I had an e-mail from the only one of those few who can sometimes see there to be a view other than his own, only a week or two ago, in which he told me he felt that a posting I had made in the School Review Board, was so excellent that he had taken it upon himself to re-post it into the Discussion Forum. Therefore my presence in the discussion forum was not of my choosing. Indeed until then I had never contributed a single word to the discussion forum.

I see now that the forum is more sinister than I had thought, as it is obvious that they include lying and cheating by teachers as right and proper, whilst the schools being complained about sometimes wrongly are considered unworthy of fair treatment.

So unprofessional! So unbecoming! So Mickey Mouse! Best rename the Discussion Forum as "The Star Chamber"

John

Put me at the top of that list, please! - Teachers Discussion *Link*

My goodness, so much squealing!

I don't at all dispute that teachers who simply lie to tar the reputation of a school damage us all and are worthy of censure from the rest of us. I'd be with you 100%...if that's what you were really doing.

But sometimes you present yourself as some kind of Uber-Writing Critic for all of China EFL on the internet. You seem to feel entitled to smash up people's accounts because you personally happen to find them "long" or "full of irrelevant details" or "badly written". You seem to equate these crimes with dishonesty or with deserving abuse from the schools. This doesn't really jibe with the carefully-crafted reason for your posts that took you so long to come up with.

You jumped into the middle of my friend Hemingway's account largely for the above reasons. I happen to know for a fact that his account of the tale contained absolutely no "deliberately untrue and misrepresented information", yet you jumped in and started smashing anyway. Again, this just isn't consistent with the "fighting dishonesty on behalf of all decent teachers" that you want us to believe you're undertaking.

On the Reviews side you've gone round and round with some poor soul who took a job, had a mutually-signed contract in his hands, got an L visa, and flew to China only to be told that he didn;t have a job after all. He keeps demonstrating that he had his ducks in a row at least as far as he knew he needed, so you finally just dismissed him by saying "well, it MUST have been something you did wrong on your side somewhere." You wouldn't even CONSIDER the possibility that this guy really had been ripped off and that this school really was run by a bunch of lying crooks, even though neither phenomenon is particularly unusual in China! THIS is pursuing the truth for the benefit of all?!?

In the Cross case, I won't argue the guy's mistake. He messed up, it seems, little doubt about it. So instead I will invite a viewing of our respective first posts back to him that might illustrate the real difference between you and me: My first reply to him was to point him to his Consulate so that, right or wrong, he could get some help if there is any. Your first reply was to try and rip him a new hole.

So I still can't see any reason that holds water for the things you are doing on here. Oh, I understand what you are saying, but I don't actually see you doing it...anywhere. And without that just cause you so obviously DON'T have at least in many of these cases, I'm sick of watching you tear these people down on behalf of schools that pretty clearly seem to have operated in a completely unacceptable manner. That's what it is to ME. I'm still very unclear about YOU.

I appreciate the solid support I've received from Frank, and he has my gratitude for it. (No, I don't know Frank other than on here. But I'd like to.) But this has nothing to do with why I don't debate his takes on job ads. The reason for that is that I realize Frank is simply trying to share a little humor. A lot of these job ads ARE pretty damn funny, and I know many teachers who enjoy reading them. I don't think anyone with half a brain would ever automatically equate writing bad Chinglish in a job ad, with being a dodgy school! Besides humor, Frank also shows compassion and tolerance in his writing...none of which I've ever seen a glimmer of from you.

Meanwhile, yeah, I DID have the temerity to stand up and tell you that I don't buy your arguments and that I question your motives. Sure, I used some pretty blunt language in saying so. But at no point did I ever stoop to the level of nastiness that you've displayed...which makes your accusing me of these tactics pretty damned funny, really. Ditto for your assertions that I haven't made solid arguments for any of my points; in reality I think I've done this a hell of a lot better than you have.

But then, some people are not able to build and they're not able to defend. The only thing they're good at is tearing down.

Speaking of which, while your detractors may be few (An assertion that seems as arguable as most others you've made), your support seems to come mostly from a known repeat troll. This same guy pops up from to time for the sole purpose of slapping everyone around until he gets banned again. You're welcome to grasp at this straw if you want to, John. It's absolutely no skin off my nose. Personally I don't want or need support from a person like that. I'm absolutely delighted that they're on your side!

You said in another post that you were going to ignore my posts, and that this would be infuriating to me.
Please.
I invite you, I WELCOME you to ignore any and all of my posts on this or any other forum. I won't mind a bit! Go for it! Please play in your own league!

John's apparent contradiction - Teachers Discussion

It is generally held that a school whose name comes up on the review board will thereafter find it very difficult to recruit teachers.

Perhaps more importantly and this is a big point you ALL miss: Teachers who ........They will not be deterred from their unscrupulous ways but can be relied on to make life even more difficult.

I'm sorry John, but I don't follow your logic.

If a school is experiencing difficulty recruiting (and retaining) teachers and it responds by making life more difficult for newly recruited teachers (and incumbent teachers), won't that generate MORE complaints on this (and other) forums and make it even MORE harder for the school to recruit (and retain) teachers?

And, eventually, won't the school be faced with a situation whereby it cannot recruit (or retain) any teachers?

What would a school do at that point? Avoid recruiting foreign teachers altogether? Or, perhaps, take stock and amend the working / living conditions of foreign teachers?

History (India / Gandhi, US / Afro-Americans, South Africa / Mandela, et al) shows that the short-term response to speaking out against injustices may result in harsher injustices.

But, in the long run, perseverance prevails!

Joining your "few" detractors - Teachers Discussion

John,

I have tried to keep an open mind regarding your postings, which is certainly NOT EASY! As I have stated numerous times in various postings, I came to this discussion forum after witnessing far too much Kill The Messenger going on over at Daves ESL Caf China Job-related discussion forum. So often when some unsuspecting and trusting newcomer came to China and found that they had been grossly misled, tricked, or even conned, a few hard-core skeptics (the infamous poster Roger comes to mind with over 9000 postings!!!) were ready to pounce on the person. Of course their retorts came not from first-hand knowledge, but from their own sense self-righteousness and their demand that the poster pass their own special acid test. Little or no empathy or sympathy was ever expressed.

I agree with you that FTs warning postings can sometimes be fraught with lack of details, or worse, selective memory. Most of us at this forum are not stupid, we can easily figure out who these people are (but they are rare). Did you ever stop and think about the emotional and confused state-of-mind some poor FT might be in at the time of their outcry?

The one time I posted a very dire warning about a school, I felt I was truly running for my life. The boss at the school had promised to hunt me down like a dog. Despite this state of affairs, I managed to post a very detailed account of what had taken place. Nevertheless, the self-appointed pouncers came yappin at my heels, accusing me of things they knew absolutely NOTHING about! In fact, the first one to jump me was the very foreign teacher who blatantly lied to me over the phone about the conditions at the school. For example, he told me the apartment was off-campus (it wasnt), he told me it was decent (it wasnt!), and he failed to mention three other critical things regarding the apartment:

1) the teacher who lived in the apartment before me had fled

2) he had never actually seen the apartment himself; and

3) he lived off-campus with his wife

And that was only the issues with the living situation at the school Ill spare you the nightmarish conditions of the job itself. He was pouncing on me because HE was losing face with the crooked school and the crooked boss and had been in cahoots with him to lure trusting FTs to reduce his workload!

Why on earth would most posters take the time to post blatantly false claims about a terrible experience(s) at a school? What would be the point, the benefit?

In your latest posting you include: Why is it you make no complaint about the increasing numbers of postings being made by Frank, who searches the job offers looking for what he thinks are suspect offers and then offers his often sarcastic comments. Where is his justification for doing this? Has he been to or had any dealings with any of the schools he highlights? The answer is no - but Frank is one of you and as such, in your eyes, he can say no wrong. I don't see him checking on teachers' resumes either - there are a good many suspect cases in those too, but clearly you guys are consumed only with damaging schools and not those teachers who also deserve similar treatment. It is little wonder that you save loads of venom for me and because you are so obviously biased against schools, your response to my postings is largely negated.

I am one of them??? What in the world does that mean???

Perhaps they dont challenge my job ad postings for numerous reasons:

1) they get it; in that they understand I am trying to offer a bit a levity amidst all the breast-beating going around here;

2) they understand that I am trying to point out the constant poor English employed by these employers or agents. John, would YOU trust these people???

3) they think my ad commentaries are stupid, boring, and unfunny, and simply not worth the time to respond.

Whatever the reason, my increasing numbers of postings dont provoke the kind of response that yours obviously do!

As for your few detractors, I now join the club, in which the membership is rising rapidly.

Here are a "few" highlights from some of your few detractors:

From Adam: John Makes a very presumptuous post, instead of asking questions he makes conclusions without answers.

From Richard Prouty: John, you make a lot of assumptions. This school has a notorious reputation in Guandong. We should thank the original posters for their information. And by the way you are absolutely incorrect about the guest lecture status for F visa. . . As far as everything else you wrote, you make a lot of long-winded off topic assumptions. People like you do not add quality to these boards but more noise that newbies have to sift through.

From Yi: . . . invitations were received (John this is where you begin make your incorrect assertions), and in a later post: Are you for real? Get a life! You waste so much time and nonsense and your posts are ridiculous i doubt you are any kind of professional. As several other posters commented outside of this topic, your observations are lacking and long winded. you should relegate yourself to what you do best (lurking).

From Wally: Wow John must have ESP to be able to recreate such a scenario without knowing anything about the place, people or time.

From Raoul Duke: If you look at John's posting history, mostly over on the Reviews side, it's hard not to notice that John seems to exist for one thing and one thing only: to try and shoot down any complaint that any foreign teacher makes about any school. He puts a lot of work into making it look as if any problem that happens in China is entirely the fault of the foreign teacher.
He jumps readily into situations where even he admits he has no knowledge and no connection. He posits a bunch of rather condescending and cowardly after-the-fact hindsight. He uses small and often irrelevant details to try and cover over tales of the most blatant thievery and malfeasance on the part of the schools.
The one thing he DOESN'T tell us is why he expends so much effort on this campaign to exonerate the schools and make all of us look bad. I can think of only 2 possibilities:
1) He's trying to ingratiate himself, at the expense of all of us, with some group of school owners or aducation administrators. Boo, hiss!
2, and my money's on this one) He's ego-fluffing. By making all of us look stupid and superficial and a bit dodgy, he must be better than all of us, right?

From Ginger Grant: You know, John, after reading your responses to the reviews here for some time now; I have something to state here and youll most likely either give me a long response or a short retort; let me also add that Raoul Duke may have a point.
You obviously devote a great deal of time and effort dissecting from all angles, as you put it, these school reviews, but it's also very noticeable to me that your efforts tend to ignore very crucial details in some of the reviews, and maybe you see those ignored details as irrelevant especially if they dont coincide with your argumentative strategy. You tend to make a particular attempt to either discredit the poster's review altogether or certain aspects of that review, and if another poster doesn't agree with your views, you do get a little snippity, and long winded yourself.

Thanks John, for making ESL Teachers Board Discussion Forum more and more like Daves ESL Kill The Messenger forum! Perhaps the frequency of my postings will decrease. Congratulations! Mission accomplished!