Frank, in response to my remarks about my colleagues being happy with their lot, you said.

Do you actually believe your Chinese co-workers would tell you their genuine feelings about their situation? They would fear reprisal from speaking to you and that perhaps you would pass along their sentiments to the owner.

I said that I know them all very well indeed and this can be taken to imply that they also know me very well certainly well enough to know that I am not a spy in their midst. However, your comment is tantamount to calling them liars.

You then went on to say:

Again, could this possibly be the result of these other local FTs being familiar with your hard-core skeptical and oppositional nature, and simply not wanting to be bothered with engaging in some sort of relentless debate with you, John? Perhaps they choose to confine their work-related grievances to a more supportive circle.

Complete rubbish on your part, Frank. The people I refer to are very fair-minded indeed and there are times when we all become engaged in sometimes vigorous discussion. Not just me, Frank, but the whole group of us present at these times. They, like me, enjoy getting down to the bottom of whatever may be being discussed. Also. as I said, they don't have any significant work-related grievances, for they all work at decent schools.

None of them however, act like you do namely to take hostile issue with anyone who raises a point they disagree with. When anyone in our gatherings comes up with such a point, he is expected to logically state his case and those who disagree with it are expected to logically justify their disagreement.

This is called fair-play, Frank. It is something that neither you nor your comrades-in-arms have exercised in the slightest degree.

You are right that I dont know what Mr Dukes real occupation is but then why should I know? Whilst I accept that this forum is open to anyone, it is overwhelmingly teachers who post in it. You have yourself emphasized in one or two of your postings that it is a Teachers Discussion. Thus, I dont think it was unreasonable to suppose that Mr Duke was a teacher and in any case my remark still stands.

Here is what you have said about Mr. Duke

He has removed himself from the typical public school/training school English education circus in China, and found his own way to exist and thrive professionally.

I have two heads of comment about that.

1) I dont know what Mr Duke is doing for a living these days but whatever it is, good luck to him. I have a question though. When Mr Duke chose to remove himself from the job of teaching, could it not have been that he did so because he missed the days when as a teacher - he enjoyed the celebrity status that the job attracted but gradually found himself with that status no longer. As I said to him Times Change. I also made it clear that my surmise was not intended as a personal attack on him, so you have no room to imply that it was.

2) You refer to the typical public school/training school English education circus in China. The reasons why it is such a circus are numerous but they include the attitudes towards each other, of some schools and some foreign teachers. Each of those factions is regulated and monitored by one or more government agencies but not very well. I think that China will eventually clean up the business but in the meanwhile, I believe that foreign teachers should be a self-regulating group. However, that requires the ability to exercise fair play.

My point is, Frank, that you and your comrades-in-arms have no intention of doing any such thing. You in particular have claimed otherwise but you are refusing to accept an opportunity to prove it.

Until someone can take a genuine interest in exposing the deceit and lies that some foreign teachers bandy around in their haste to wreak personal revenge, the circus you allude to will continue. I know that it isnt some foreign teachers alone who need to be dealt with. There is a lot more besides, but we have no control over that.

John

John,

I responded to your proposition quite promptly in an earlier post entitled Oh, John (scroll down to KJs a little of this and a little of that thread and you will find it).

As for your latest charge against me, you know quite well that I did not accuse your colleagues of being liars. So ridiculous! Liars is your choice of words; dont ascribe it to me. I wasnt even talking about them! I was illustrating, based on your chronic pattern of making sweeping assumptions about other posters assertions, credibility, and motives, that perhaps it was likely that YOUR claims about these folks all feeling happy in their work (especially your Chinese co-workers) was more than slightly presumptuous.

As for your serious proposition, I said before, no thanks! I might have some twinge of interest in pursuing further communication with you if you didnt take yourself so annoyingly seriously and occasionally offered a post that wasnt completely witless. You are truly a legend in your own mind

Readers are clearly fed up with you and me (and a few other participants or detractors as you call them) for keeping this futile exercise alive. Its time to stop this shrill and tedious tango. John, keep this up all you like, but youll soon be dancing alone.

I offer sincere apologies to my fellow posters, and other readers, for my part in this ongoing madness. Mea culpa No more exchanges with John for me. Hes all yours

Lights out