Yingwen Laoshi
- 2006-10-18
Earthling, I wasn't arguing about whether, students or schools in China prefer native or non-native speakers. If you look back at my post you will see that I in fact agreed with you that native speakers are generally preferred in China. That's an unarguable fact.
If I'm correct, the crux of your argument, is that you believe the reason why native speakers are prefered is because non-natives cannot easily teach Western culture. This was the point I was arguing. In fact it's a valid point on the surface, but after thinking about it a bit more I decided to state my disagreement with this view and gave reasons why I disagreed. Please let me reiterate.
Firstly, I again agree that if an FT is specifically teaching a course on Western culture it would perhaps be a bit more difficult for some non-native speakers to teach. I think most people will agree though that the great majority of English classes taught by FTs in China do not really focus specifically on culture but simply on teaching the English language itself.
That has certainly been my experience throughout the four years I've been teaching over here. Because of these reasons I think you are putting too much emphasis and importance on the teaching of Western culture in China.
Secondly, even in cases where the teaching of Western culture is a prerequisite and is a specified course in a school, as I said before I believe that many non-native speakers who have spent a considerable time studying or working in the West would not have to much trouble teaching Western culture to Chinese students as long as they were capable teachers, and speakers of English.
Thirdly, those non-natives who have spent a considerable time in the West in some aspects would actually have an advantage over many native-speaking teachers of ESL. First of all they can identify with the difficulties of studying and learning English with all it's grammar rules. They can also relate to the students by letting them know how they were able to cope with such things as prejudice, doing business, finding a decent place to live, and finding the right school to study in etc., not to mention all the other 101 things involved in going to another country to live, work and study.
I agree that it's a fact that native-speakers of English are preferred when it comes to teaching ESL in China, but when it comes to finding out the reasons for this I think it's not because non-natives find it difficult to teach Western culture. We have to look elsewhere to find out the reasons why Chinese schools often reject non-native speaking teachers of ESL.
rainmyne
- 2006-10-17
I am not in Jillin but I know some non-natives who work there. I dont know about the names of the schools but I think they had an agent. Try searching the websites. I sometimes read ads searching for non-native speakers.
good luck..
KJ
- 2006-10-17
Well Earthling, you seem interested in debating, but I cant really accommodate you. I can however offer this response.
First, your assertion that almost 100% of texts used in China for EFL classes are written by UK or American authors is way off the mark. Granted though, the majority are written by Westerners or at least by those posing as Westerners, so Ill allow that one to slide.
Secondly, if any of us are having a little trouble following your writing, its because your writing skills leave a little to be desired. Better stick to teaching Oral English.
Hmmm, I just reflected on how much culture I taught in my classes today. Not much, unless of course, like you, I equate the teaching of English as the teaching of culture. And no, we dont sing in my university classes; however, if we did, I wouldnt necessarily equate that as cultural either unless we were singing traditional folk songs or the like. Otherwise, I would call that faux culture generated by profit driven Wall Street marketers. Oh yeah, by the way, when I have taught in Middle Schools the children loved singing Chinese songs for me.
Now, Im sure you and I wouldnt be having this discussion had you carefully read my post. My assertion was that non-native speakers would be more suited for classes other than Oral English due to the fact that many have very refined grammar and writing skills. Yingwin, rightfully pointed out that many non-native speakers would be well positioned to teach business classes of one kind or the other.
As for refuting your facts Earthling, well, I didnt really see any facts worth refuting. Actually, I dont even take issue with your basic argument that there are reasons why many employers dont consider non-native English speakers as suitable for their students. What I do take issue with is the way you have framed your response. No need to be confrontational or to treat the rest of us as if we are moronic. Heres a quote from your post: I guess some of you either can't read or can't understand what you have read. Maybe you meant to say, Perhaps I didnt make myself clear.
But in the context of the suitability of non-native English speakers, Id like to see you take a more logical position from which you are viewing the issue more clearly and less shrouded by your own misguided perceptions of the importance of Western culture and its association with language teaching. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you are confining yourself to thinking only in terms of Oral English. And, to be completely fair, one should recognize that there are some non-native English speakers who have acquired a fairly neutral accent and who also understand the intonation and stress patterns of the language well enough to teach it.
The Earthling
- 2006-10-17
I was a little amazed by the responses to my post in that if one considers things very carefully and avoids generalizations about "the typical amount of culture taught by most FT's" and the student "desire to learn about Western Culture-it's simply from a postion of interest rather than practical economic reasons", that's flat wrong since it is obvious that almost 100% of the texts used to teach Engish in China comes from US or UK authors. Additionally, the interest is for practical economic reasons. Is the Chinese Stock Market and it's present market driven economy anything other than Western. I guess some of you either can't read or can't understand what you have read. I said 25% of the content of my courses were culture-related. But take a moment and reflect on what you taught today, was it anything other than Western oriented? Were the dialogues or texts used developed by non-native educators? Was the language patterned after anything other than Western? Did the students want to learn or sing anything other than Western songs? Was the grammer anything other than Western? I could go on and on to the point that my 25% becomes way too low, it's probably more like 90%. Take a breath, think about it and I'm sure you'll agree that these are the reasons the preference is still Natve Speakers. Of course all the tapes used in listening tests like IELTS and BEC are either British or American English. CALL (computer assisted language learning) is exclusively Western and is the wave of the future. Students and Administrators in China prefer neutral, native English accents and even if we think it's unfair it remains a FACT. I'm wondering that in your own country do the schools hire non-native English teachers? OK boys, back to your keyboards, can't wait to see how you try to refute this. Please avoid the generalizations, try to base any response on FACTS
KJ
- 2006-10-17
I can't agree with the assertion by "earthling" that the need for knowledge of Western cultures diminishes the demand for non-native EFL teachers in China. Granted, many students - especially in the more metropolitan areas - have an expressed interest in our culture; however, I don't see that as an overriding factor regarding the low demand for non-native speakers.
I think that what needs to be factored in is that non-native speakers, though they can speak and write the language well, have rarely acquired the subtleties of the spoken language. Now, in that context, culture could become a part of this discussion. Another unfortunate negative is that employers must often realize that their students have had more exposure to native-speaker accents - not just in the classroom, but through the media as well. But, less I create an argument here, I will add the caveat that there are many non-native speakers who have acquired a Western accent; moreover, I've encountered some non-native speakers that can speak the English language better than some of my countrymen.
Interestingly,I had a Linguistics teacher in America who was born in China and whose English was better than most of the other teachers at my college. She received her MA in languages from a university in Shanghai and went on the get her PHD in America. So, it is possible to acquire a native-speaker accent and to therefore be employable in China. But it begs the question, could my teacher's English skills have been so great had she been taught by non-native speakers? Doubtful.
On the other hand, I still believe there is a place for non-native teachers in Chinese classrooms. As Yingwin rightly pointed out, there are many business type classes that would be a perfect fit for them. Another thing to consider is that non-native English speakers have often learned the written language and the grammar far better than the average college graduate in America and perhaps other Western countries as well. Hopefully there will come a time when employers and/or administrators will take this into consideration. But again, it's perfectly understandable that most non-native speakers would not be considered appropriate for the Oral English classrooms. Ask yourself if you'd prefer to learn Chinese from someone who has learned it as a second language or from a qualified native speaker.
Getting back to the question of culture though, it surprises me that Earthling suggests that 25% of his classes are taken up by culture lessons. First, this flies in the face of the need to personalize lessons in the ESL/EFL classroom. Next,it places too much emphasis on the teacher and not enough on the student. (Are you a lecturer, or a facilitator?) Also, it doesn't address the important need for students to prepare for their English exams. And finally, though I could go on and on, it smacks of a kind of chauvinism that has no real place in the classroom.
Having said all that in the above paragraph though, I must also recognize my own shortcomings. Meaning, I'm often at a loss when asked to discuss contemporary American culture. "What American culture?" I ask myself. "Youth culture, McDonalds culture, generic culture of sameness and redundancy wherever you look?" "Shopping culture." "Red neck culture?" "Liberal culture." "Religious culture?" "Driving the car culture." "Hip-hop culture?" Ha! How 'bout the culture that's created and nurtured by the advertising companies. No thanks. Well anyway, I can't really pin-point it and to simply say it is diverse doesn't cut it. No thanks, I have no desire to teach "American Culture," whatever the hell that is. I think I'll just stick to teaching English. Yeah, I'll answer the questions - when they come up - to the best of my ability and often with tongue in cheek. But as to using culture as 25% of my class, well, forget it.
Yingwen Laoshi
- 2006-10-16
It's true that many Chinese students want to learn about Western culture particularly in relation to Britain and the USA. To many Chinese students, these countries are the land's of "milk and honey", and opportunity. It's also true that there are students who are actually taking English courses where the main focus is on Western culture.
What we need to realise, though, is that the objective of most English courses in China are simply to improve the student's English, and in non-cultural courses when students express a desire to learn about Western culture it's usually simply from a position of interest, rather than practical or economic reasons.
Earthling, you mention that 25% of your classes have to do with culture. While I don't doubt this, and do agree that is quite a large percentage, I also think that it is not typical of the amount of culture taught by most FTs in China. On average most teachers teach a lesser percentage and when they teach it, it is often for the sake of interest or inquisitiveness rather than anything else.
Even in cases where schools require FTs to teach "culture", it doesn't mean that all non-natives will find it difficult. Britain and America are among the most cosmopolitan countries on the Earth, with many non-natives having resided in these countries for a longer time than some native speakers who teach in China, have been born.
Another thing that would aid non-natives who have been residing in the West for a long time, is their business experience. Many from other countries who settle in the West invariably start their own businesses. Surely years of this experience would help when teaching business or finance classes in China or elsewhere. Here they would actually have an advantage over native-speakers insomuch that they would be able to relate to students who want to follow in their footsteps in studying or doing business in the West. If these non-natives have "been there" and "done that" so to speak, then they will have a huge amount of practical knowledge and experience that they can pass on to their students. They will be able to relate to their students in a way that few, if any, native-speakers could ever do!
Another plus that a non-native speaker has in teaching ESL, is that they have had to study English before they could teach it. So again they can relate to all the difficulties that their students have in learning English that native-speakers cannot.
Yes native-speakers are generally the first choice, when it comes to teaching ESL in China, and probably will be for quite some time. However, they are not the only choice and I can see signs now where Chinese schools are realizing this. As time goes on, more and more Chinese schools will realize, that in some important aspects, the well-qualified, English-proficient, non-native ESL teacher, often has more to offer than a native-speaker.
Teachers Latin America
- 2006-10-16
First stop...google. Second, try some of the online EFL teacher forums. Dave's is a good start. Or email me if you like.
Guy Courchesne
The Earthling
- 2006-10-16
There is one very important issue concerning the desire of most Chinese Schools, Universities, Colleges and Private Training Centers that seems to be missing in the arguments back and forth concerning these insitiutions requiring native vs non-native speakers/teachers. No less than 25% of all my classes, regardless of the course title, have had to do with "culture". The truth is that the Chinese learners of English want to know mostly about the culture of the USA and the UK. This holds true in Business classes as well as Language classes. I presently teach courses in Finance and the students want to know about this vis-a-vis the US, not the Philippines or Cameroon.
A non-native speaker cannot easily speak to these issues and in addition cannot easily talk about the culture of say the USA. It is unfortunate, but presently true, and until such time as the "cultures" of other countries become more of an interest to the Chinese learner of English, the schools in China will no doubt continue to want native speakers as their first choice.
NoN- NATIVE
- 2006-10-15
Good day!
Do you know a specific school in Jilin? Or are you in Jilin right now? Whats your stand 'bout Jilin?
NoN- NATIVE
- 2006-10-15
Hello!
I am very much interested to apply as an ESL teacher even in the Latins... However, how do I go about and do that? And what country should I be going? I will write you an e-mail will that be ok?
Let me know ;-)
NoN- NATIVE
- 2006-10-15
You bet! It breaks my heart. I actually grew up in the US and when back to my mother country for college... but the problem (for them) is lI AM BROWN even I speak in English fluently. Anyways, Let me share you a letter sent to me via e-mail. It is from a Caucasian- owned recruitment agency:
Regarding your application, I am afraid that we cannot hire you for our full-time teaching positions. We take our role as an agency very seriously and wish to provide both teachers and schools with the most excellent of services, and although we are of the opinion that people from other countries can be very good teachers, our contact schools do not wish to employ them for full-time positions, even if they are native speakers.
I cannot say for sure, but I think the reason for this is (especially the private schools and training centers) that, as a foreign teacher, you are not only expected to teach, but also to be the face for the school in advertisements, brochures and parent meetings. A foreign face sells the school better than an Asian face.
Mark
- 2006-10-15
I'm afraid , they don't ! These backward , old ideas that English is -- USA,UK,AUSTRALIA...
and white people ---the parents have , will never make you feel comfortable and self-confident in China , at least for the time being .
The school FAO -s , recruiters, Chinese English teachers have no idea or don't want to understand that :
ESL teacher means -- Uiversity Degree -- English Philology or Linguistics , experience and ...the most important -- humanist .
Maybbe ,a lot of these Natives should have this in mind too and try to learn a foreign language at the same level of their mother tongue if they want to be appreciated by the Chinese students because the young Chinese generation is very intelligent and can distinguish a Passport Holder or a Real Teacher !
Wish you success !
Teachers Latin America
- 2006-10-13
Try Latin America..things are pretty laid back back on nationality. More important are your teaching abilities.
rainmyne
- 2006-10-12
most of the non-native speakers cant find jobs easily... its only been 2 weeks so i think you should be more patient...most of us non-native speakers found our jobs for months.... just try applying for those in the northern part of china like inner mongolia and jillin...usually they hire non-native speakers...but if you prefer places like GZ you would surely have a hard time looking...
good luck!
Hello everyone!
I have been surfing the net for almost two weeks now to find an ESL job in china but unfortunately, haven't received any holla backs from any school. My previous employers tell me that I am a very good ESL teacher and all that and very hardworking. No one would give me a chance and it pains me very much. I cant land a job in a legit school in China just because I am from the brown race (and proud of it).
Please, I need your advice. What specific website/ school/ institution can I send my resume to and be treated fairly?
Thanks very much and God bless you all..
NON- NATIVE