Yingwen Laoshi
- 2006-10-23
Being a brown guy myself I can relate to you guys, to a certain extent. The difference being, you are non-native speakers, I believe. I expect that makes it even harder for you.
I understand you being upset but there's really nothing to be heartbroken about. Those schools that discriminate are mostly not worth working for anyway. They're poor quality schools that are actually doing you a FAVOUR by refusing you. You could actually thank them for giving you the opportunity to find a better school, which of course you have done.
The spirit you show in not giving up, is inspiring. I wish you all the best at your school and hope all goes well for you and your husband. I'm sure it will, you both sound like fighters!
Peace,
Yingwen
JUSTICE
- 2006-10-22
With all of these ESL job hunting thingy I have experienced a lot of heartbreaks (my husband and I actually)just because we are from the brown race. These heartbreaks lead us to where we will be heading now-- A BETTER OPPORTUNITY. My husband and I read your posting yesterday and we both agree with it. Now the decision is up to us, either we back up or continue proving them our worth. In our case, we picked the latter option.
This too shall pass, Ying.
KJ
- 2006-10-22
Yep, it's all about the profit. Dig this excerpt from an online article recently published called, "Dreaming of Harmony:"
Since the party committed itself to reforming the countryside a year ago, it is difficult to identify much change. In some villages near Dagucheng, roads have been repaved. Abolishing the agricultural tax has saved the average peasant around 100 yuan a year. Next year, fees at Dagucheng's primary school (200 yuan a year) are supposed to be abolished as part of a nationwide campaign to eliminate them in the countryside for the first nine years of education. But like many rural schools, Dagucheng primary is meanwhile cutting costs by relying increasingly on unqualified teachers.
The last line in the above says it all. I realize though that we're not discussing rural schools, but we just as easily could be. The corruption filters down, and what efforts the central government is making to revamp the education system in China will be extremely hampered until there is a true willingness of "educators" to be just that and to not be sx55555555555u9999999999999999999999555555555fr;ptr;;;;;;;; "profit hungry administrators." whoops there's the kitty's writing again - hmm, more interesting all the time.
As an aside, I'd like to mention that I have a Chinese friend who is a teacher at a middle school located here on the university campus. During the summer they fired no less than seven teachers and didn't let them know until the last minute that they wouldn't have jobs for the Fall term. Of course this prevented them from being able to find replacement jobs for the Fall. The reasons they were fired? First because it was rumored that they had been discussing the administration of the school in public. (Not sure what those discussions centered around, but I would guess it had to do with their corrupt activities.) The second, more relative to this discussion, is the obvious reason that they can be replaced by new teachers fresh out of college for less salary, which of course puts more money in the pockets of the corrupt.
So, it is not only we the Western teachers who are subjected to the whims of the profit driven administrators. Moreover, one can only hope that this floundering ship will ultimately right itself before a generation of learners are taken down with it because it is, after all is said and done, the students who are the victims. Or, as my cat would say, sx55555555555u9999999999999999999999555555555fr;ptr;;;;;;;;, and how could you not agree with that?
Yingwen Laoshi
- 2006-10-21
Thanks Justice,
That's a great name by the way, and very appropriate for the issues being discussed. I admire your faith and energy.
Keep it real, my man!
Peace,
Yingwen
JUSTICE
- 2006-10-21
Way to go Lingwen! You made a major POINT!
Yingwen Laoshi
- 2006-10-20
Dave, when you mention performance I believe you're on the right path to identifying what Chinese school leaders demand. however it's been my experience that schools base their idea of performance on how much profit they can acquire from each teachers performance inside (and often outside of the classroom).
You say that the Chinese don't give a hoot about colour. If they don't give a hoot about colour, why do many Chinese schools often discriminate against non-white NATIVE-speakers of English, and why do many job adverts in China specify that they only want white teachers? Many Chinese schools clearly do give a hoot about colour, AND indeed race, because is it not common knowledge that some schools actually specifically ask for only African or Fillipino teachers? Why is that the case?
So what is this telling us about schools in China that often discriminate on numerous grounds? Well, similar to performance, whatever the colour, race, or nationality of a teacher, they are often chosen on the basis of how much PROFIT can be made from the individual. Here I believe is the REAL reason for discrimination amongst foreign teachers in China. Yes, PROFIT... Why are we arguing in circles, splitting hairs and beating around the bush, and putting forward arguments such as the teaching of culture, the ability to teach colloquialisms, and ethnocentrism etc. when we know that most Chinese schools couldn't give a damn about any of that stuff. They simply couldn't care less as long as each teacher keeps the students happy enough to keep them coming back for more.
Yes, it's all about the green stuff (well it used to be green in England), lolly!, cash!, brass!, dosh!, dollars!, whatever we call it, most of the schools that discriminate are only concerned with the stuff that makes the world go around, the stuff that some people will sometimes do ANYTHING for (even kill). Yes, I can hear some of you already saying, "But, they're businesses and they have to make a profit". Well, sure, if they really DO care about their product, and endeavour to provide quality education in return. But how many of such schools that discriminate, do so because they are really concerned about providing the BEST EDUCATION for their students?
In such schools if the students are happy with the teacher it often doesn't matter why they are happy with him. Some students demand real teachers, and if so the school will too, but only according to STUDENT demand. If the students are satisfied with a dancing monkey then the school will not care about employing real teachers as long as a healthy profit is being made. Whether we are native or non-native speakers, white, black, brown, red or yellow, we are all pawns in a game of chess being manipulated into position by the hands of many Chinese schools. Hell, if little green men from the MOON appeared on the earth with at least the ability to string two English words together and were able to charm the socks of Chinese students, while being happy to work for 3000 RMB a month, then we'd ALL be packing our bags back to where we came from. I can see the job adverts now. "Greens only, with a lunar passport!" (Do you think I'm joking?). Think about it for a minute. Who would be shouting about discrimination then?
Because many schools are so profit driven in China, there is actually a slightly increasing market for non-native speakers. Where not enough native-speakers can be found, often due to demands for higher salaries, schools are often willing to give opportunities to non-natives. In cases where students are satisfied with them, these teachers will be asked to sign on for another year or more. If you're keeping the students happy then Chinese school leaders suddenly become colour blind. If you're helping the school to rake in the dough, you're the man (or woman) no matter where you come from (yes, including the moon). While on the other hand you could be a native speaker from the UK or USA with blonde hair and blue eyes, but if you aren't keeping the students reasonably happy, or if you upset the apple cart in anyway, you'll be kicked out of there in a shot. When you're LOSING money for the school, again the leaders will suddenly be colour blind. I've personally witnessed these things in schools I've worked for here in China. The only colour such Chinese school leaders like consistently, is the COLOUR OF MONEY!
Schools that discriminate in China do so on the basis of what they percieve to be the demands of the students. Santiago made a good point about that "perception", often being flawed. I agree. IF they feel that students want culture they will give them culture. IF they feel that students want real teachers, then they will give them real teachers. IF they feel that a student wants a native, non-native, white, black, African...then they will give them a...
Their selections are based on HOW MUCH PROFIT THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN MAKE!
The Earthling
- 2006-10-20
In response to Fish, I'll weigh in on teaching of slang to Chinese students. How to make the decision what slang to teach and what not to teach? I realy have no boundries but do limit my involvement somewhat,e.g. if a student asks me about a slang expression I'll respond, or if it is contained within a text we are using, such as 21st Century Newspaper. I have often used slang expressions as a reference concerning the changing nature of language. My classes are usually free flowing with a central theme, "get them up and speaking in English" so sometimes I myself use slang to make a point or to show students how to say something differently. Also, sometimes to provide comic relief.
Recently, I had an experience teaching middle school English Teachers. (Chinese) One of my colleagues delivered a strong speech denouncing the teaching of slang, said she never used it, but when ask about teachers who advocate the teaching of slang, she said "they don't have a clue". Go figure! What say you Fish, what's your take on teaching slang. I think we can't deny slang is a intregral part of a language and it's OK to expose students to it, and help them understand it. After all, they do see it and hear it in Movies and Music. (dare I use the word Western?)
Any other non-confrontational discursive postings are certainly welcome!
Dave
- 2006-10-20
Regarding the ongoing issue of native vs non-native English speakers, I believe that it has little to do with race as such but with the general ability to speak English well and to comprehend it in the depth that only a native speaker can. Of course there are native speakers with strong national and/or regional accents and/or whose command of English is poor. There are also non-native speakers whose English is excellent. In circumstances such as those extant in China, however, it is a matter of generalising.
Whenever a school insists on employing native English speakers, the Africans (in particular) jump up and claim that they are being discriminated against on the basis of their race or colour. In reality their race and colour are merely quoted as a means of identifying those who are not native speakers. For example, there are not many French people teaching English in China even though many French can speak English well. Do we see the French claiming racial discrimination? Of course not! Thus the Africans should not be so quick to claim they are the victims of racial discrimination either. They should instead accept that many perhaps their majority - do not have a particularly good command of spoken English nor an in-depth comprehension of its origins and cultural content. This is no consolation to those whose English is good but when lines of this kind are drawn there are always some people who feel they are on the wrong side.
An example of English spoken in a manner that lacks understanding of colloquialism by both a student AND her teacher can be found in a posting in this forum on October 5th, (entitled "Help") in which a Student named Helen Li wrote the following as part of her posting.
I stated in one part of my resume(writing) " My written and spoken English is beyond doubting"
But my teacher screamed at me and said it should be
"My ability to write and speak English is out of the question"
I replied to her posting giving corrected examples of both those figures of speech. Ms.Li can be forgiven for making her initial mistake but her teacher cannot be forgiven for the error in her correction, which in fact seriously compounded Ms.Li's error. I have no idea whether that teacher was Chinese or foreign but I can say that He/She was certainly not conversant with at least two simple everyday figures of English speech used widely in most native English speaking countries and was not, therefore, a native English speaker. This is a typical example of similar mistakes that many non-native English speaking teachers make.
I was once told here in China, that although I was the most experienced candidate for an Oral English teaching job, the school particularly wanted someone with an American accent which I do not have. I accepted that requirement as their right and I did not complain that I had been racially discriminated against. Yet it was an identical situation to that which faces the Africans.
The difference seems to be that Africans feel they have a right to a job in China merely because they have learned to speak English, yet by their frequent claims of discrimination on the grounds of race or colour they are in effect implying that the Chinese discriminate against we native speakers instead, not because of how we speak but because we are generally white.
Another major factor behind the Africans' claims of discrimination is that any excuse will do to reduce restrictions on their employment prospects. They would have great difficulty finding a job of any kind if they had to return to their homelands. Conditions in their own countries are utterly dreadful. Corruption at all levels is the order of the day: Discrimination is more rampant than anywhere else on earth: Personal security is tenuous with robbery, rape and murder being commonplace. There are no social provisions to speak of and life is a constant battle against grinding poverty. Please don't argue this, as I have visited many African countries frequently and I know at first hand what conditions exist. I don't blame an African teacher for not wanting to return to his own country but that is no excuse for crying discrimination when he is refused a job.
Also, it is a fact that many university degrees coming out of Africa are simply not worth the paper they are printed on. Some years ago I was trying to find a university place in Africa for the daughter of an African friend of mine. I was told of many scams by various universities, the most popular of which, was that for payment of an up-front 'registration fee' of several thousands of dollars, the student merely had to turn up for a certain number of tutorials each term and regardless of performance, would be guaranteed a "pass" for each stage of the course and a first class degree at the end of it. Some universities offered an Honours Degree in return for a higher 'registration fee'. I don't claim that all universities made such offers but certainly it was the majority of them.
If you were not born and raised in a native English speaking country ideally with family ties going back a few generations, then it is highly likely you will not have as good a colloquial command of English as those who were. This is not a challenge to the more argumentative among you. I know for example that there are many native English speakers who have huge regional accents or who are not well educated in their own language but they dont often get to be English teachers either.
My point is that your place of birth was not your choice but that does not entitle you to throw the blame for a lack of English familiarity back on an employer by claiming (in many cases, incorrectly) that he is racially biased against you. He probably couldnt give two hoots what colour you are or what passport you hold. He simply wants teachers who he can be sure can speak English well. In short, he is exercising his right to choose.
Dave
Santiago
- 2006-10-19
Interestingly, I think ethnocentrism exists in the minds of certain employers; however, if I may deviate from the course of this discussion somewhat, I don't think it exists in their hearts. The reason I find this interesting is my belief that those employers who show a reluctance to hire non-native speakers have a misguided notion that the parents of their students are themselves reluctant to have anyone other than native speakers teaching their children. But I seriously doubt that most employers make hiring decisions based on a kind of belief in their own superiority or the superiority of native speakers over non-native speakers. Granted there are mitigating factors in terms of the suitability of non-native English speakers as Oral English teachers, but those factors have been previously covered in this thread.
As to the notion that parents harbor a sort of ethno-based prejudice, I would seriously question that. I think we can contribute that to the snow ball factor. Its an idea that got a start somewhere and gathered enough material to seemingly be a fact in the way that innuendo often creates a reality of its own. After years of teaching in China and not being able to close my eyes to many of the negatives of this rampant development along with the residual effects of feudalism and political inanity, what I can say with a feeling of gladness is that Ive noticed very little in the way of behavior that would indicate that the Chinese people as a whole have an ethnocentrically created intolerance for other races. In fact the Chinese do have an age-old concept called the others, which seems to be a factor in terms of their ill-treatment of each other. And, upon further reflection, the class system which was fervently attacked over the last century has reared its ugly head again as well. But, as a slight digression, I believe that most Chinese would just as soon rid themselves of the ancient burden of ethnocentrism and chauvinism along with the reputation that goes with it. I truly cannot see that there is a heart felt belief in their superiority over other races. If anything I would say that there is a fascination with and curiosity for the outside world but not a desire to be like us; moreover, I would suggest that it is only the fact of English being a required course and an obviously necessary means of communicating with the outside world that gives us the impression that there is an overriding interest in our cultures. Just as an aside, let me say that when I pool my college students, regarding their destination of choice, the preference is more often France than it is English speaking countries. But then France of course is considered a Western culture also although I suspect that the French would just as soon exclude themselves from a discussion of Western culture en masse. lol
Well, these are just thoughts and Im not even sure I can tie this all together without spending considerable more time on it. But I do find it to be an interesting discussion that Id like to be a part of , so pardon my thoughts being all over the place.
I am however finding it a little difficult to follow not only the train of my own thoughts but also the logic of some of the others. Earthling, for example, has written that ethnocentrism includes the fear and mistrust of foreigners a fairly indisputable truth; however, he then immediately adds that telephone interviews have become the norm. Im not sure how a telephone interview would assuage ones fears or mistrust - just a thought.
Earthling also suggests that we all incorporate culture into our language teaching. Or in his words: Allow me to clear something up. I don't teach "culture", but because I was raised in a particular culture I naturaly incorporate IT in my teaching of language, as I'm sure all of you do.
Truthfully, I sort of shy away from teaching about my culture. Yes, its often unavoidable but it goes contrary to my basic teaching beliefs and my teaching style. Some of the worst textbooks Ive had to deal with in China have been full of such clap-trap Western culture that Ive often had to just relegate them to the trash heap and develop my own lesson plans. But then, these are books that would agree with Earthlings assertion that culture and language are somehow joined at the hip. Personally, Id like to see a more cosmopolitan view taken toward the teaching of the English language. And frankly, those students who are capable of thinking outside the box share my view; furthermore, they are far more animated and motivated when the English lessons revolve around something closer to home. This leads me to my other pet belief that of personalizing my lessons as much as possible so that students can internalize the language and not memorize it. Now, I dont mean this to sound confrontational Earthling, but its obvious that we have totally different styles and in my mind thats ok. Im sure that what works for you works for your students. However, I sense a kind of resentment by students when Western culture is constantly thrown in their face. The fact is English language learning is a means to an end that has to do with China becoming a world player and many students realize that this doesn't mean becoming immersed in Western culture while studying English.
But back to ethnocentrism: I think that Yingwin has made an excellent point. If ethnocentrism is an overt factor in terms of the hiring of language teachers, then why do they hire any foreigners, be they native or non-native speakers?
Finally though, and I must apologize for the absence of brevity here, I think that we can all agree with Earthling about employers wanting teachers with neutral accents. Not that they always get what they want. Ive heard some English accents since coming to China that have ranged all the way from a very thick Scottish brogue and deep south American dialects to Ghana, West African English, all of which are enjoyable to listen to but sometimes very difficult for me to follow. But then, I speak the Kings English as acquired by educated Americans --------- just kidding folks.
Yingwen Laoshi
- 2006-10-19
Hmmmm!...ethnocentrism. I certainly agree that an element of ethnocentrism exists in China. Is that another reason native speakers are preferred here? Possibly, in some cases. I do think though that this debate (sorry discourse!) is splitting hairs somewhat, because of the following points.
Ethnocentrism, as the name suggests, in China (and of course everywhere else) does not extend to just Japanese people, blacks, and non-native speakers of English (as you indicated yourself when you used those groups as just an example), but to ALL foreigners including native English speakers and whites. If ethnocentrism plays a significant part in the school selection process then surely those establishments wouldn't want to employ any foreign teachers at all. In any case ethnocentrism cannot be such a big issue because there are still many schools in China who are willing to employ non-native speakers.
So the questions are: Do you think ethnocentrism in China is extended to all foreigners in China? If so do you really think that it plays a big part in the selection of foreign teachers (native speakers and non-natives) if they are being frantically sought all over China? If ethnocentrism is a significant reason for native-speaker preference why are many non-native speakers happily employed in Chinese schools up and down the country?
I think the REAL reason for native-speaker preference lies elsewhere.
Thanks for the discourse!
Mark
- 2006-10-19
.... if they have TESL University Degree , at least 5 years experinece ---teaching Foreigners and ...... a good Reference from their students !
Thanks to all of you; Fish, KJ, Laoshi! You all helped to make my point that regardless if we can or cannot identify what is western "culture", presently the students and administrators in the Chinese Educational system LIKE it and WANT TO KNOW ABOUT it. So, native speakers have a better grasp and appreciation of IT and that is at least one reason they want native speakers. Allow me to clear something up. I don't teach "culture", but because I was raised in a particular culture I naturaly incorporate IT in my teaching of language, as I'm sure all of you do. Hopefully this statement isn't taken to be confrontational.
Moving to another reason for the desire for native speakers-ethnocentrism! The Chinese culture contains very strong feelings about and toward peoples of other cultures, Blacks and Japanese for example. Ethnocentrism isn't only about thinking your culture is superior, it also has to do with fear/mistrust of foreigners, especially in the case of China. So, they are becoming more careful in the hiring of teachers, especially in the Public sector. Telephone interviews have now become the norm in order to hear the applicants speak. This, coupled with submission of the passport w/picture weeds out the non-native applicant. It is no matter if this is morally correct or not! This is what they want!
Further, what I have felt during the 13 years I have been involved in Education here in China is that I am part of a process to help produce persons with "internaional" English language skills, especially oral. This means a neutral English accent, not a strong British Cockney, or a Texan drawl, but neutral. Go to the the halls of the U.N. and listen to groups of differing cultures converse in English, or tune into the English news channel, CCTV 9, and you will hear what the Chinese insist on- the neutral English accent.
This is meant for discourse, not debate!