A thousand Chinese moving
in unison. To Western eyes it was frightening. To Chinese eyes it was majestic.

Hmm, have you ever watched 'Riverdance' or 'Lord of the Dance'? People moving in unison can sometimes be awe-inspiring as well as 'majestic'.

Yup.
And even when they do know the answer, they don't want to be seen as showing off by raising their hand and answering in front of their classmates who may not know the answer.

This 'caring' or 'empathy' for others is admirable in some ways and when running a business or an army it is often productive. Imagine if the contributors to this forum were concerned about how their posts might seem insensitive or damaging to the 'cohesive nature' of the forum. The forum would have 75 posts a year instead of just today.

By western educational standards 'face' damages innovation and independent thought.

In learning an oral language skill, it is disastrous.

Yet much of China's rapid growth is a result of this 'consensus building'.

Remember the Chinese drummers in the opening of the 2008 Olympics? A thousand Chinese moving in unison. To Western eyes it was frightening. To Chinese eyes it was majestic.

"So if I had the choice, I would prefer a "bad" person (whatever it means) who is kind to animals than a good person who is not."

Okay, now wait a minute. Wouldn't you be unable to call someone who is not kind to animals a good person? Which, of course, would mean that your main criteria for "goodness" is kindness to animals. I can almost agree with that. Although, I wouldn't give it as much weight as you do and it's worrisome that you may not notice the bogeyman sitting next to you who's petting his dog and kissing his cat.

I, too, by the way, am a vegetarian. I've also spent a lot of time in the woods, and love all creatures in the forest - even the ones that used to scare the hell out of me. However, if I had to eat them, I would.

I admire your passion for what you believe.

TD: I feel some hope about those two. I feel that they are (slowly) learning. But they would never admit to it of course.

For me, and it's just me, I can tolerate about anything from a person who respects animals (mostly from vegetarians and vegans): They can dislike people, and that's OK with me as long as they respect animals. I am sure there would be exceptions, but that's the general principle.

A "good" person (whatever it means) who is indifferent or cruel to animals, I can't take.

So if I had the choice, I would prefer a "bad" person (whatever it means) who is kind to animals than a good person who is not.

I have been like that all my life. Not going to change, for sure.

"But it is certainly has nothing to do with conscious deception or refusal to take
personal responsibility."

You sure of that? Really sure?

I'm not really sure of anything. But I cannot believe that freshmen college students are lying or being lazy when they will not give a correct answer in front of the rest of the class and will refuse to ask questions when they do not know the answer.

Do Chinese ever lie or deny responsibility? Of course!

But that is not about 'face' as Chinese understand it and as Westerners cannot.

"face" or "losing face" ( diū liǎn) permeates many
facets of Chinese society and is not as limited as you make it out to be and has worked
quite well, from a social standpoint, for a very long time.

Individualist westerners cannot truly understand the nature of 'face' in Chinese society.

Collective consciousness, awareness of what everyone is thinking and feeling at a specific place/time is not possible in a pluralistic society. In China, when I am the only non-Chinese standing in classroom, the students all share a cultural orientation that I cannot possibly fathom.

Recognizing something exists does not qualify as understanding or experiencing it.

'Face' is intrinsic to the Chinese success at building consensus in all social activity, including their educational institutions.

It often drives me crazy given my Western beliefs in independent thought, free speech, and criticism.

But it is certainly has nothing to do with conscious deception or refusal to take personal responsibility.

Wrong, piglet. Just another uninformed opinion on a subject you've not bothered to research. Had you bothered to open your eyes while in China, you would now be aware that the concept of "face" or "losing face" ( diū liǎn) permeates many facets of Chinese society and is not as limited as you make it out to be and has worked quite well, from a social standpoint, for a very long time.

Of course you're hung up on the whole lying thing because your whole online persona is a fabrication. Will you lose face when your lies are revealed for what they are?

Some people lie. There are a lot of people in China. Some Chinese people lie.

Some EFL teachers in China (most I would hazard to guess think they're teaching ESL) also lie. When they're found out, they plead innocence. When they're found out to be teaching without the proper credentials, they just take their lies elsewhere. Sound familiar?