heretosay
- 2017-02-28
FTs in China are able to give anecdotal information about their personal experiences with
their employer and about the places they have 'visited' in China. They would be well
served to recognize the extent of their experience and the paucity of their knowledge
about China. Seeking 'respect' for their minuscule knowledge is pathetic.
Very well said, FTinPRC. Yes, the incredible diversity of China adds to its complexity and, yes, exposure to a few cities does not make an expert of FTs who suddenly know everything about China. It's similar to those who went to the Beijing Olympics and maybe took a week or so to travel and now suddenly they're China experts. But still, it's surprising to me that so many FTs have seemingly deep seeded feelings and opinions with so little exposure to China as a whole.
I've asked posters in this forum before if they've ever spent time in villages or if they've expanded their horizons beyond the cities they've taught in. They don't answer the question, which leads me to believe the answer is no.
And you're right; it would take a lifetime to truly understand China - if that's even long enough.
I was imagining today what stories would a Chinese person tell if they suddenly found themselves in Mobile, Alabama or some such place and decided after a brief stay that he could speak with authority about America. So I had to laugh when I saw what you'd written about a Chinese citizen in America or England.
FTinPRC
- 2017-02-28
So, nope, not arguing - just sayin.'
If you speak to 'world class' (Trump-speak) experts in any field, academic or professional, they consistently qualify their statements with "we don't fully understand" or "further research needs to be done" or "we just don't know yet".
Blog 'experts', however, are certain of everything. This forum's information about China is an excellent example.
Individuals who spend a year or two or ten in China are apparently soon confident of their ability to 'explain' China. Imagine a Chinese citizen who lives in London or New York for a few years advising Chinese on Weibo about the political and economic culture of the U.S. and England.
FTs in China are able to give anecdotal information about their personal experiences with their employer and about the places they have 'visited' in China. They would be well served to recognize the extent of their experience and the paucity of their knowledge about China. Seeking 'respect' for their minuscule knowledge is pathetic.
More than a billion people in the world's fastest growing economy for the past 30 years: there are no easy answers about China.
Certainly not here.
heretosay
- 2017-02-27
So in other words, you really don't know what you're talking about and refuse to answer the very pointed questions I asked you. Like so many others, you're great at finding fault with China but have nothing to back up your complaints and your limited understanding of China as a whole. But that's okay now that I know where you stand.
Look I'm not about to engage in
some kind of flaming on or off the topic.....
I have no idea what that means.
There's "international espionage" and then there's THE INTERNATIONAL ESPIONAGE.
I have no idea what that means either. Am I to infer that you believe that the Chinese are engaged in a degree of espionage that far out weighs the degree to which other nations practice espionage? Sure you want to stand by that assertion? Hey, you may be right, but please do tell what led you to such a conclusion.
caring
- 2017-02-26
American xenophobes sing dissimilar tunes while the Chinese ones at a uniformed pitch which is the difference in between. Both attitudes may be as dangerous in varieties of ways. All xenophobes are a menace to the human nature as they discriminate and cause conflicts that isolate the world's population.
America's population has a high proportion of xenophobes
caring
- 2017-02-26
There's "international espionage" and then there's THE INTERNATIONAL ESPIONAGE. One difference is in the proportions of this phenomenom. Look I'm not about to engage in some kind of flaming on or off the topic but I hail your commitment here. 
International espionage is a fact of life.
Arthur
- 2017-02-26
Good point! Trump would not be president without the dozens of millions of voters who had heard his xenophobic rants for one year and still voted for him: America's population has a high proportion of xenophobes.
Simon
- 2017-02-26
Thx for your post.
Whatever, I think we can agree from a teaching perspective that teaching in China can be a rewarding experience for westerners in all sorts of ways, and that thankfully Chinese citizens are mainly not xenophobic.
Unfortunately, US citizens have many more xenophobic people in their ranks than China, and Trump isn't helping in this respect in the US!
heretosay (aka China Apologist)
- 2017-02-25
How about the US?I'd have thought that a foreigner employed there legally who has bought an apartment, and who
has a US wife can get US nationality automatically after a fixed period of residential
and uninterrupted time in the country provided he has a clean criminal record. In the
UK, that period is 2 years.That is a very different situation from China, where there must be very very few foreign
teachers who can get Chinese nationality easily!So, I'd say western countries are truly immigration countries, unlike China! China
cherrypicks to a great extent - no comparison.
Of course I agree with your last assertion. There can be no comparison at this point. Later? Maybe. There are too many factors in the equation to make even an educated guess. There's also the issue of tit for tat when it comes to such matters as quotas that are determined by the political and diplomatic atmosphere at the time. However, I do believe that the PRC should not be blamed for taking a cautious, some would say paranoid, approach to immigration at this time. Hell, they're still trying to bring a g'zillion people out of poverty. They're still trying to create an education system that is workable for all, they're still trying to deal with corruption that is endemic in all developing nations and is exacerbated by the unending greed of the filthy rich who think they should be the ones calling the shots.
So, although immigration is on the rise in China, I agree that there is a high degree of selectivity. As to the question of FTs finding it difficult to establish themselves as immigrants, well, that's another issue, but hmm, never mind for now.
As for the laws in America regarding residency, it used to take seven years. Haven't looked into it lately and anyway Topsy Turvy Trump has everything turned upside down right now. Innocent, kind people are being rounded up and thrown out. Children, elderly and sick are not exempt. The gauntlet has been thrown. American citizens with increasing awareness coupled with basic human kindness are reacting to the inanity of it all.
Well, sorry, I taught immigrants in America for several years. I was involved with many of them - not just as a teacher but also as friend, guide and confidant. They brought out in me a kind of empathy I didn't even know I had. So anyway the issue is real and emotional to me.
heretosay (aka China Apologist)
- 2017-02-25
Chinese have copied just about everything they could and you come to say they're so
innovative? From cars, through weaponry to technology, secretive red cohorts have stolen
whatever they could from such places as you have described as well.
International espionage is a fact of life. Do you think Great Britain or America are guiltless in that context? Also, do you think the Chinese incapable of innovation? Clear that up for me, will you?
"Secretive red cohorts" indeed. How about some glamorous labels for Western nations? Let's see, here's one for England: Post Imperialistic Intelligencia. And one for America: Sadly Surreptitious Sleuths. Yeah, it's okay when we do it, eh?
What's bothering is that you are "just saying" what your comrades in China Daily
are spitting for their leaders who own them. Believe me that locals in People's Republic
know little about their republic, because they've just not learnt.
Hmm. My "comrades in China Daily?" Why not just call me a commie pinko? And which locals are you referencing? Is it all of the citizens of China who fall into your "know little" category? Or are you talking about a certain demographic such as those who live in remote villages and have yet to experience the benefits of higher education? Or, is it that, like a certain departed poster, you believe that all Chinese are stupid and worthless? I'm serious, and these are not rhetorical questions. Just seeking clarification.
caring
- 2017-02-25
Chinese have copied just about everything they could and you come to say they're so innovative? From cars, through weaponry to technology, secretive red cohorts have stolen whatever they could from such places as you have described as well.
International Cooperation in Science and TechnologyChina has cooperated through programs in science and technology with 152 countries and
regions, signed inter-governmental sci-tech cooperation agreements with 96 countries and
joined more than 1,000 international sci-tech cooperation organizations.
Non-governmental international cooperation and exchanges have also been increasing. The
China Association for Science and Technology and affiliated organizations have joined
244 international scientific and technological organizations; in international
scientific and technological organizations, Chinese researchers hold 293 executive
member-director or higher level posts, 281 leading posts on expert committees of
international organizations; and 253 CAS scientists hold posts in international
scientific organizations. The China Natural Science Foundation concluded cooperative
agreements and memoranda with counterpart organizations in 36 countries.
http://english1.english.gov.cn/2006-02/09/content_184144.htmI imagine that at least a few of the above mentioned scientists and researchers haven't
minded rubbing elbows with the Chinese in Shanghai or almost any other Chinese city you
may mention. Moreover, I would also guess that most of those who have done so considered
it an honor and a privilege.
What's bothering is that you are "just saying" what your comrades in China Daily are spitting for their leaders who own them. Believe me that locals in People's Republic know little about their republic, because they've just not learnt.
What's bothering is that you are "just saying" what your comrades in China Daily are spitting for their leaders who own them. Believe me that locals in People's Republic know little about their republic, because they've just not learnt.And I am just sayin' join us for the sake of our children and humanity to create or mix blood without any repercussions.You may find the following article to your interest:Immigrant numbers rise in cities
By Zheng Caixiong (China Daily)
Updated: 2016-03-18 23:19Don't we all, though - don't we all? Since returning to America, after seven years in China,
it has astounded me how little is actually known about China and how little they want to
know. What is "known" is rarely regarded as speculation, but instead regarded
as "truth." Such is the world we live in. That is, a world where we are spoon
fed information by the media while they are guilty themselves, so often, of
regurgitating that which can only be consumed by those who willingly accept it without
digging deeper. Fortunately, in this age of Trumpism, we see the media aligning itself
with the will of the people in ever increasing numbers. Nevertheless:People's minds are changed through observation and not through argument.
Will RogersSo, nope, not arguing - just sayin.'
Simon
- 2017-02-25
How about the US?
I'd have thought that a foreigner employed there legally who has bought an apartment, and who has a US wife can get US nationality automatically after a fixed period of residential and uninterrupted time in the country provided he has a clean criminal record. In the UK, that period is 2 years.
That is a very different situation from China, where there must be very very few foreign teachers who can get Chinese nationality easily!
So, I'd say western countries are truly immigration countries, unlike China! China cherrypicks to a great extent - no comparison.
heretosay (aka China Apologist)
- 2017-02-25
This continues to hinder the
country's meaningful development because foreign talent avoids innovating alongside
China's brilliant minds in the country, even in Shanghai!
Sorry, must disagree:
International Cooperation in Science and Technology
China has cooperated through programs in science and technology with 152 countries and regions, signed inter-governmental sci-tech cooperation agreements with 96 countries and joined more than 1,000 international sci-tech cooperation organizations. Non-governmental international cooperation and exchanges have also been increasing. The China Association for Science and Technology and affiliated organizations have joined 244 international scientific and technological organizations; in international scientific and technological organizations, Chinese researchers hold 293 executive member-director or higher level posts, 281 leading posts on expert committees of international organizations; and 253 CAS scientists hold posts in international scientific organizations. The China Natural Science Foundation concluded cooperative agreements and memoranda with counterpart organizations in 36 countries.
http://english1.english.gov.cn/2006-02/09/content_184144.htm
I imagine that at least a few of the above mentioned scientists and researchers haven't minded rubbing elbows with the Chinese in Shanghai or almost any other Chinese city you may mention. Moreover, I would also guess that most of those who have done so considered it an honor and a privilege.
China is a non-immigration country,
which is contrary to the attitude of many ordinary Chinese.
Again, sorry to disagree. You may find the following article to your interest:
Immigrant numbers rise in cities
By Zheng Caixiong (China Daily)
Updated: 2016-03-18 23:19
The Chinese govt has a lot to learn!
Don't we all, though - don't we all? Since returning to America, after seven years in China, it has astounded me how little is actually known about China and how little they want to know. What is "known" is rarely regarded as speculation, but instead regarded as "truth." Such is the world we live in. That is, a world where we are spoon fed information by the media while they are guilty themselves, so often, of regurgitating that which can only be consumed by those who willingly accept it without digging deeper. Fortunately, in this age of Trumpism, we see the media aligning itself with the will of the people in ever increasing numbers. Nevertheless:
People's minds are changed through observation and not through argument.
Will Rogers
So, nope, not arguing - just sayin.'
Simon
- 2017-02-25
Great post!
However, curiosity kills the cat in certain circumstances. So, ordinary Chinese people better follow only officially sanctioned religious orgs.
Chinese people are not xenophobic, unlike their leaders. China is a non-immigration country, which is contrary to the attitude of many ordinary Chinese. This continues to hinder the country's meaningful development because foreign talent avoids innovating alongside China's brilliant minds in the country, even in Shanghai!
The Chinese govt has a lot to learn!
FTinPRC
- 2017-02-25
My question would be more along the lines of "why wouldn't they?" The Chinese are
as equally, or more curious, about the outside world as, say, the average American is
about China.
I would agree that there are millions of people in China that are 'spiritually curious'. Many of them are now becoming Christians and there is a tradition, though limited in number, of Christianity in China.
Chinese Universities, however, are vehicles of political indoctrination. Every university freshman in China goes through 军训, military training. Every Chinese student has a 辅导员 which is impossible to translate accurately in English; he or she is a staff member responsible for a class' discipline and adherence to 'political training'. There are several required courses in correct political ideology.
In this environment a FT teaching a course on the bible is potentially scandalous. Yes: the best universities have Chinese professors teaching comparative religion courses, but they must tread carefully.
Missionaries in China have a checkered history and insurrection has dispatched with several Chinese emperors. The party is leery of any organizing activity, be it online, religious, or otherwise.
A FT that arrives to teach at a Chinese university believing that it similar to hugging a lectern at Berkeley or Bryn Mawr will be sorely disappointed.
heretosay
- 2017-02-24
I am surprised that the Chinese would accept such a
course. I thought they were against missionaries teaching in China. Why do you think a
course with such a title was allowed in their university? I can't think of any reason
but obviously there was a big one.
My question would be more along the lines of "why wouldn't they?" The Chinese are as equally, or more curious, about the outside world as, say, the average American is about China. I've never met another American, other than those who have an extreme interest in China or are involved in a study program about China, who knows what the San Tao is or how those three "religions," Taoism, Shamanism and Buddhism are woven into the brocade off Chinese culture both past and present.
The Chinese have a long history of seeking to understand more about the West through the way that Westerners practice religion. Granted there have been instances of persecution of missionaries and pockets of Christians that have surface over the years. Nothing quite like the inquisition, though.
A very revered person in China is Matteo Ricci, an Italian Jesuit Priest who was the first person to be invited to the Forbidden Palace. He was dedicated to giving his all to his understanding of China and exchanged all he knew to aid them in their understanding of the outside world and how the belief in God was a guiding principle. He became fluent in Chinese and astounded his hosts by how quickly he learned to write in Chinese and how sincerely he embraced their culture. He never actually got to meet the emperor, which I believe saddened him, but he lived in China for nearly three decades and died in Beijing in 1610.
So, again, I'm not surprised a religious class would be taught in China. The higher tiered the university, the more likely, in my opinion, would one find classes on religion and how Western religions have shaped their countries and their cultures. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that one can get a degree in Comparative Religions in China.
I suppose, too, that if we want to, we can just say it's all about "know thy enemy." But I'd rather give credit to where credit is due. Intellectual curiosity crosses all boundaries and cultures.
FTinPRC
- 2017-02-24
I'm unable to access and read the university Chinese website course description. It probably has a more generic title for the course, perhaps just
'Western Culture Literature' or something similar.
The guy who teaches it is a wonderful young man and very discreet. He was always pleasant, though I teased him mercilessly, calling him Reverend.
BeenThere
- 2017-02-24
"a cohort of stealth missionaries, one of whom taught a 'Bible as a reflection of Western Culture' course"
I am trying to read the news in the US today without throwing up....
Reminds me the title of one of the last songs of Leonard Cohen "You want it darker"
Missionaries bring this dark 1950's cloud with them. The bible is a reflection of everything that is dark in the Western Culture. I am surprised that the Chinese would accept such a course. I thought they were against missionaries teaching in China. Why do you think a course with such a title was allowed in their university? I can't think of any reason but obviously there was a big one.
China has sent 'inspection teams' to a selection of 29 of China's top universities to examine their adherence to core party principles.
A couple of years ago I taught one year at a provincial 'top' university.
The FTs at that university were not necessarily more qualified, but there were none of the amusing iconoclasts that you would find at 2nd and 3rd level universities. There was however a cohort of stealth missionaries, one of whom taught a 'Bible as a reflection of Western Culture' course across the hallway from my writing class. On breaks I would eavesdrop; it was like listening to the radio on a road-trip through the deep South.
I will check with students there this semester to see if his sermons survive inspection.