I thought the point was to help Daniel - Teachers Discussion

Alicia,

Thank you for suggesting I leave China. Thats EXACTLY what I plan to do very soon! In the meantime, why dont you actually offer some REAL information about your experience? You say you also dont like things about living and working here, but you offer NO real information. I thought the original point of this discussion thread was to help Daniel, not telling the other posters what to do. As you suggested to DB to come to China with a positive attitude, thats exactly what I did. My less-than-positive attitude is the result of four years of bad experience in China. Im just trying to save Daniel some possible (and likely) future grief.

When you talk about accepting things you cannot change, I honestly understand your meaning, but again, after four years of experience here, I have also changed my feeling about that. Chinese schools ask us to come here and teach. They seem to think we will do this in some sort of vacuum. One cannot teach English effectively (in my opinion) without also teaching the culture of the language. As I said before, Chinese schools seem to want the benefit of foreign teachers knowledge and experience, but they want to change, improve, or modify almost nothing, because the inefficient, corrupt, apathetic system works very well for THEM, but doesnt help the students, parents, or teachers (Chinese or foreign). Did I first come to China to change it? Absolutely not, but one cannot participate in such a mess (with any sense of pride or integrity) for very long without wanting to bring about some change.

Chinese schools are more than happy for most foreign teachers to come here for adventure and experience and then go back home after six months or one year (provided they dont flee before). That why theres no chance anyone will require anything to change. Its all part of the bigger exploitation machine. Very little of it has much to do with education.

You talk about how unhappy I am, but I didnt notice that you actually disagreed with any of my observations either. Please enlighten us how your experience has been so much better than mine. Perhaps you can, but at this point, youve offered precious little (NOTHING to Daniel) except telling the rest of us how to feel and behave.

For Daniel -- with thanks to DB, Jamieson, and Fish - Teachers Discussion

Wow Where to begin First of all, let me say that I appreciate Fishs earnest attempt to offer you lots of useful information based his experience. Fish is one of those posters who participates in a great many discussion threads on this website. In my opinion, he always has good intentions, but he also annoys lots of people (and Im sure I do, as well).

Anyway, Fishs observations are useful, but they are greatly limited to his own experience. I have been living and teaching in China for four years, and while I agree with some of what he offers in this discussion, I also disagree with quite a few of his comments as well (which I will address later).

For example, he discusses boxed lunches. I have worked for at least 10 schools (training schools, private colleges, and public universities) and none of them has ever offered me a free, boxed lunch. I could go on and on about where my experiences have differed from his (I assume Fish is male).

What I want to stress up front is that I very much agree with DB and Jamiesons posting s in this thread. If you find yourself in a situation where you feel you must flee, then go ahead and flee!

Actually, want I to say even louder is: DONT COME TO CHINA!!! Now you will logically and rightfully, ask: Why do you tell me not to come to China, when you have been there for four years? I say this because after awhile, I learned how to navigate and survive in China (and I speak very little Chinese), but if I had to do it all over again, I would never come near China (as a place to work).

As my and Fishs experiences are probably vastly different, so too, will yours be. What I can GUARANTEE you is that you will be disappointed (at the very least) and likely infuriated and/or horrified by a number of things you experience or witness here.

Yes, China is a wonderful country. I can go on and on about the positive aspects of China. The majority of my students have been a pleasure to teach, and I have made quite a few fantastic friends here (all Chinese). But I also contend that China, for the most part, is a terrible place to work as a teacher. The only people I consistently find myself quarrelling with (for a myriad of reasons and issues) are school leaders.

As I mentioned earlier, I have worked for at least 10 educational organizations in China. ALL of them have been bad for a plethora of different reasons. Only once did I feel was a runner, or fleeing was necessary for my protection and self-preservation. I was criticized on another ESL website for doing so, but I dont regret it for one second! In fact, the foreign colleague who lured me to the school (I was in a very different part of China at the time I accepted the position), criticized me heavily, but he also got away from that school as soon as he had the chance (a TOTAL hypocrite).

Also, a couple who read my internet warning about the school contacted me privately because they had planned to begin teaching there within two or three months after my departure, or flight. I offered them numerous reasons why they should not go to that place, but in the end, they decided to ignore my advice. OK, fine. (This all happened two years ago.) Just recently, they added a posting to the discussion thread and said how much they wished they had heeded my warning. (I can send you the weblink if you like.) Again, their problems were a bit different from mine, but they had LOTS of troubles nevertheless. For example, while they were traveling, the school allowed other people to live in their apartment, without asking them or notifying them. The uninvited squatter rifled through their things and helped themselves to a few of the couples items of interest. You see, you simply cannot imagine what kind of stunts school authorities will pull!

I have SO MUCH MORE to say, but I think you get the idea Stay home, or choose another country. I love China, but in so many ways, I wish I had never come here.

Also, I dont agree with Fish when he talks about standing your ground. Thats OK in the beginning, and it will certainly be necessary at times to do, but the people you work for will often be underhanded, deceitful, etc., and so trying to reason with them in a professional manner is a waste of time. They always depend on us foreigners to be open and honest with them, but rarely will they be with you. Everything is very secretive here, and so as Jamieson advised, you too should keep your plans secret. (I had to learn that one the hard way.) Thank you, Jamieson!!!

They will also think that because you are a newcomer to China that they can tell you anything as official policy. They will almost always assume you are stupid and uninformed. You must ALWAYS know more about the situation (ethically and legally) than they think you do. How to do this??? Its a slow process, because you must make some very trusted friends in China who will tell you the truth about a situation (socially and legally). Keep in mind that Chinese often treat one another badly, and so in some ways, foreigners are not being selected for their unscrupulous practices. Schools are notorious for not doing what they promise students and their parents, as well.

What foreigners must be very careful about (and I plan to compose a longer posting, and begin a new discussion thread) is being exploited. I came to China after being a teacher for years in the U.S. I hold two masters degrees, etc., and came to China for teaching, far more than for adventure, or possible romance. I still receive email messages from students I taught four years ago, and I continue to teach them or help with questions regarding English, or western culture, or western educational practices and ethics.

Despite my genuine desire to teach well and with integrity (and schools will often tell you they want the same), when I began to question their practices, motives, etc., they sometimes made the grave mistake of telling me that actually they dont care of you are a good and experienced teacher of not. They will say something like: We just need a foreign face. We dont really care about your teaching.

These schools (private AND public) are making LOTS of money off of foreign teachers. They will give you as little (in salary and services) as they can get away with.

Stay home, Daniel; or should you decide to come here, flee a bad situation if you feel it is warranted. What school leaders fear most (I think) is embarrassment and complaints and pressure from students and their parents. I try my very best to respect the Chinese idea about saving/losing face, but so often they dont care at all if they cause YOU to lose face. Do whatever you must do to protect yourself from the negative aspects of working in China.

This country is full of fantastic, open-hearted, and generous people, rich cultural history and traditions, delicious food, etc., but it is also riddled with unethical landmines.

After four years in China, perhaps the biggest loss for me (among MANY) is that I am now a much less trusting person than I was when I arrived here in 2003. I am skeptical about almost everything here.

Good luck to you, Daniel, and thanks DB, Jamieson and Fish for your thoughts and observations!

Fleeing China - Teachers Discussion *Link*

Daniel,

Don't stress about these issues. If you are part-way through, or indeed just beginning a contract and you smell a rat, DON'T TELL ANYONE that you will bug out. I know it's very tempting to want to share your opinion with anyone (as we Westerners love to do...)but in China, to avoid unpleasantries, just do it, and TELL NO-ONE.

As far as 'the Authorities' are concerned, by the time they have figured out that your non-appearance at your school and your empty apartment means that you have indeed bailed, you'll be in Wichita, L.A. or wherever. Just don't F**k around, procrastinate or whine to strangers after you've had a few beers.

Word travels real fast in China.

The essence is STEALTH and SILENCE. Make a lightning plan, book and pay for train tickets and adjust your return flight schedule by phone with Mastercard/Visa, or cash. You don't need to show ID when catching a train in China.

Remember, Shhhhh.

They won't hunt you down.Trust me.Paranoia doesn't happen in China if you are fast.Be quick on your feet mate. If you want to bail, do it fast, don't present with issues and GO. FAST.

No point arguing with obtuse school and Government officials. You want to go?

Then go.

Jamieson. 4 years in China.