Yes, thanks for your positive comments and thanks for bringing this discussion back on track. Also, I appreciate having a clearer picture of what you personally have been dealing with.

As you are no doubt aware, the majority of problems within the framework of EFL teaching in China is associated with private schools and so called training centers. I actually know of a few that are well managed and quite above-board, but they are few and far between. In fact, they are such a blight on the EFL landscape of China that I and others have repeatedly warned would be teachers in China of the problems associated with working for them for quite awhile now.

I view your decision to leave China as unfortunate. It seems that you are the kind of caring and astute individual that China needs. I believe that you would be well received and well appreciated in a university environment. And yes, it's true, that doesn't mean that you escape all the problems. But it does mean that you will be working with educators - yes educators who still see the dollar as the bottom line, but who in many cases have an equal amount of concern for the students.

But your point is well taken. I too am reaching a burn out point, but I'm going to hang in there a little while longer. When I quit doing this however, I'll remain in China and, like you, do what I can to help past students. Meanwhile though, I'll be taking it much easier and doing so with far fewer frustrations and hanging out in a place that is not polluted, is not overpopulated and that is pretty laid back and wondrously natural.

Yes, Fed Up I think you deserve an award for the most creative title of a post in this forum; albeit, what follows deserves few kudos if any. At any rate, thanks for the laugh.

Since you and your cohort, eng. teacher, have felt it ok to toss the word "apologist" into this discussion as if it had a special application here - and I don't mind laying aside the bantering tone in which you've used it - let's first address that issue.

So that we're on the same page, Wilkipedia defines the colloquial use as follows:
Today the term "apologist" is colloquially applied in a general manner to include groups and individuals systematically promoting causes, justifying orthodoxies, or denying certain events, even of crimes.

Well, I guess this is the first time I've been accused of being an apologist. But actually I don't mind, even though I'm not sure wherein you're placing me as far as the above definition goes. Probably something to do with denial because you seem to think I don't accept that there are problems that need dealing with in China for FT's and students alike. Not true. I am well aware of the problems. However, I seem to have a different approach. That is, I don't want to spend my time bemoaning the situation. I'd rather work from within, with as little complaining as possible, to help bring about the necessary changes.

It's true that I'm not always as sympathetic as some of you. That's probably because I've overcome a lot of obstacles in my life and haven't found that the "boo hoo, woe is me" approach does much good. Furthermore, I'm shocked that though there is a wealth of information to go along with just plain common sense, that so many teachers come off as the proverbial born every minute sucker.(Nevertheless, if I found myself in the actual situation where I could help an unfortunate soul who has blundered his way into calamity, I'm not so heartless as to turn away.)

So, I won't deny that there are problems and even outright criminal activity that needs to be addressed. Nor am I so naive as to believe that we're not living in a country that is seeped in corruption and greed. But here is where we seem to differ: I, though deeply aware of the problems, believe that change is inevitable and forthcoming; furthermore, I believe that the leaders are sincere in their desire to bring about a harmonious society, to weed out the corruption and to navigate this country out of the doldrums it has sailed into. Not a simple task. It's not just the residual effects of the last decades they're dealing with but also that of preceding dynasties. And therein lies the problem. They're dealing with mindsets developed over the millenniums and social systems that are archaic at best.

So in my opinion, rather than condemn them for what they have not achieved, they should be praised for what they have achieved. Sure there are many things that go on around me that downright piss me off. I've had to readjust my thinking in a lot of ways. Chief among them is becoming a bit more aggressive as opposed to being sufficiently assertive. On some days it takes a little will power to keep from going downright ballistic. However, if I'm going to consider myself a civilized, forward thinking individual, I must reign in the negativity as much as possible and try to see the positives. And there are many. Which brings to mind another of my problems with many of the posts here. So few of you have anything kind to say. It's all whining and, as I've said repeatedly, you don't even bring the cheese and crackers with that whine.

If I'm an apologist then, let me provide the following argument. Hu Jintao is, in my opinion, one of the most brilliant leaders on this planet. But for all his brilliance and that of his cohorts, he faces a daunting task. Human nature has run amok in certain parts of China. And, though the Chinese are quite resilient in that they have overcome some serious hardships, that doesn't seem to have translated as care for their fellow human beings on a scale that we would hope from a civilized society. Will it happen eventually? Yes, I think so. Will all peoples of all nations, get over themselves and stop man's inhumanity to man? I certainly hope so. Probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I'm not going to cry about it - I'm going to do my part to set things right.

Which brings me to my final point because I'm loosing my own thread anyway. I'm often in opposition to what is written in these posts because the inevitable message is to stay away from China, when in reality the message should be quite the opposite. We need more right minded individuals here. More proper role models for these young people that hope for a brighter future. More qualified teachers that are not scared away by the whiners. To bring such people here we need more balance. Fish has tried to do so and has been condemned by many of you. Some of you have even gone so far as to label him a recruiter, which is not only the most absurd notion you could set forth but also suggests that you must grasp at straws when you can't properly set forth an argument of your own or respond intellectually to one that comes your way. When Fish is off to his favorite fishing holes, he'll be sorely missed - we need his voice of reason. USMC, though he can fan the flames a little more vehemently than can I, has an underlying substance to his posts that resonate with me and that should not be lightly set aside. Remove yourselves from emotional responses and you'll probably find some serious logic within his posts.

Hi KJ. Have you read the article in the China Daily dated 2007-01-06? It's about The Report on the Development of Chinese Talent in 2006 published by The Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. In it they state that 70% of students who went to study abroad between the years of 1978 and 2006 did NOT return. They report that of the 1.06 MILLION Chinese students who went to study overseas ONLY 275000 returned home.
By my poor math thats 28 years. A little longer than it takes to see Disneyland, I'm sure you will agree.
How long must they stay abroad before you admit they are NEVER coming back?
As for your "waiting for someone to tell you how this relates to the earlier stated assertion that this is a representative faction of the population in terms of people wanting to flee China ( Paraphrased )"I do not recall anyone stating that. Whether you paraphrase it or not.
I also do not recall anyone stating that the people wanting to leave China do so because they hate their country and culture. They leave or do not return, in my opinion, because they have a better life in their adopted country. Surely even you would not try to argue that the Chinese students who choose to stay abroad , do so because they believe that their lives will be WORSE than if they returned to China.I don't think so!
They do NOT return because they believe that their lives will be BETTER in another country. And, according to the report mentioned above, this has been true for the last 28 years!
Also I don't recall anyone claiming that there would be an inevitable " exodus of boat people". That is a claim that you have invented in order to try to belittle the people that hold an opposing view to your own. Why do you feel it neccesary to do that?
So in future if you do not believe figures that are quoted here and you ask for the Source, if it is given to you, please have the courtesy to read it and respond accordingly, otherwise I, for one, will not take you seriously and regard you as an apologist for " The boys in Beijing"
Have a nice day.

For the moment I'll assume that you are merely trying to set the record straight. Ok, now the number's up to 75 percent. That's nice. Do we know how long they're going to stay. Maybe long enough to enjoy Disneyland. Hard to say. Seriously though, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how this relates to the earlier stated assertion that this is a representative faction of the population in terms of people wanting to flee China. (paraphrased)

Hmmmm. At 20 years old, after two years of shore duty in Japan, I made the decision to stay there after my discharge from the U.S Navy. It didn't work out that way for a few reasons not worth mentioning here; however, having made that decision was it therefore indicative of my desire to get away from America? Not. I was young and enthused about the opportunity to explore and experience a new culture. Human nature I believe. If one wants to learn about and immerse oneself in another culture, it does not necessarily follow that he hates his own country or culture.

At the age I am now I can state that without a doubt I prefer China to America. Do I hate America. No. No room for hate in my life. Just would rather be here. Chew on that for awhile. Yeah, I'll be that guy standing on the shoreline waving goodbye to the exodus of boat people that so many of you seem to believe is inevitable.

We'll discuss it with you if you give definition to 'cheat' and 'abuse' and give your source for '70%'.