Old and Tired
- 2007-07-08
KJ, thanks for the clarification. I have a much better understanding of your concept of "speaking out" (so to speak).
I also find that when students feel "safe" they will open up more about various social-political issues.
I too, avoid any discussion (or least involving myself in any discussions) regarding Taiwan. I feel it is truly for the Chinese people to navigate and decide this issue for themselves.
Where perhaps you and I differ most is rate of change. If I am to accept changes at this glacial pace, then it makes China's soaring development in other areas even more out-of-sync with other shifts in the culture. The way it feels more and more to me is that there is far more resistance to change than to considering, or (God forbid) embracing change.
I'm not trying to pummel you (or anyone) with articles (I swear!) but one just popped tonight (from Associated Press) which I think relates to our discussion.
I've pasted the piece below, in its entirety:
China links promotions to unrest control
July 8, 2007
Local Chinese leaders will have a better chance of winning job promotions if they can limit social unrest in rural areas, state media on Sunday quoted a ruling Communist Party official as saying.
The party has become increasingly concerned at protests in recent years by ordinary Chinese venting their anger over official corruption, a yawning rich-poor gap and land grabs.
Unrest also can occur when simple accidents or arguments attract large crowds and quickly spin out of control.
"Officials who perform poorly in maintaining social security in rural areas will not be qualified for promotion," Ouyang Song, deputy head of the Organization Department of the party's Central Committee, was quoted as saying by Xinhua News Agency.
Xinhua said the comments were made Thursday at a conference for senior officials in Beijing.
At the same conference, Public Security Vice Minister Liu Jinguo told the police to launch a monthlong inspection into social disorder in rural areas, the report said.
"Fugitive criminals and underworld gangs, as well as those who steal rural production materials, produce or sell fake and substandard commodities, kidnap children and women and smuggle drugs, explosives and guns will be targeted," Liu said.
He also urged the police to investigate and report on the disputes which may give rise to "mass incidents" or crimes in rural areas.
Xinhua said that from January to September 2006, about 385,000 rural people participated in "mass incidents." It did not define what constituted a mass incident.
In March, a newspaper connected to the Communist Party called on local governments to use less force when dealing with such protests.
The Study Times, a weekly sponsored by the party's Central Committee, appealed to local governments and police to distinguish between a "collective appeal for help from violations of the law." It followed a protest in Hunan against rising bus fares that reportedly drew 20,000 residents and prompted a harsh police crackdown in which witnesses said one person was killed.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
KJ
- 2007-07-08
I understand what you're saying O&T, but truthfully I'm not just referring to private conversations. I'm also referring to in-class discussions. Furthermore, in some of these classes there are students who are members of on-campus communist organizations and even staunch defenders of the communist one party system. Other students are aware that there are ears everywhere and are nevertheless quite willing to openly discuss any and all problems. Granted the Tibetan and Taiwan issues are still taboo subjects in the classroom, but that's not a problem for me because I agree with the One China policy anyway and, well, lest I open a whole other can of worms in this forum, I won't mention my feelings about the whole "Free Tibet bumper sticker mentality." At any rate, even my communist students are advocates of free speech and I believe that's the ultimate direction this country will take as it follows the Hong Kong model.
I haven't followed the link you provided yet, but I will say that there are grass root movements throughout China that are addressing and will ultimately address all such issues. "Rome wasn't built in a day." Therein lies the difference between me and many other posters here. I believe that change is inevitable, and yes definitely needed, but I also believe it can't happen overnight and that a certain amount of patience is needed. Condemnation won't get us very far. Advise coupled with patience and understanding will, however, go a long way.
As a bit of digression, let me add that I was part of the environmental movement in America that really got going in the late sixties. In some ways, I'm still waiting for a positive outcome of all that energy output. Yeah, there's been some movement in the right direction and in some cases some excellent improvement, but we've got a long way to go. Change is inevitable, but far too often much slower than we'd like.
Old and Tired
- 2007-07-08
Frankly, KJ, I'm rather stunned by your comments... Just because someone confides something to you privately, that does not constitute "speaking out," as I was discussing. There is a great differnce between offering opinion to someone, on a one-to-one basis, and SPEAKING OUT -- publicly. These are two very types of actions, and I of course, was referring to the latter in my previous post. I feel fairly certain that you understood the distinction I was making.
On that subject, a very excellent article can be found in today's New York Times (weblink below) regarding the lack of consumer advocacy groups in China. With the latest flurry and focus surrounding tainted/contaminated products from China, this deficiency in the public sector is now seen.
I urge everyone to read this excellent article entitled "As Chinas Economy Roars, Consumers Lack Defenders":
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/08/world/asia/08china.html?ref=asia
KJ
- 2007-07-06
What is your hope FedUp? Are you hoping that China's leaders will wave their magic wand so that suddenly all these problems will vanish into thin air? Of course you don't. And I would also warrant that you don't believe that posting negatively about China will have that much of an affect either. Sure there is a need to discuss such issues. I discuss them myself - with Chinese and foreigners. But it is the context with which you discuss these matters that I take issue with. I see no value in negativity for the sake of negativity. In other words, I think you and others here in this forum delight in casting a shadow over China. And in the process you don't act as if you want to hang out for awhile and do anything about it. In fact, you advise others to stay away.
Moreover you stated the following:
"Can Chinese people speak out in this way -- openly -- about things they disagree with regarding their government's actions toward others -- without being punished themselves??? Of course not!"
Are you contributing to this forum from some distant past? I've been here for nearly four years and absolutely everywhere I've been - 10 provinces and counting - I've found people willing, able and unworried about speaking out on a variety of issues which you seem to think are taboo. Sure, they often do so with a certain amount of initial hesitancy, but nevertheless they do speak out. And furthermore, they do so from a point of hope for the future. Perhaps you consider that hope misplaced. You have the right to consider it that way. Personally, I'd rather see it all as a process - an unfolding destiny if you will.