Richard
- 2004-11-19
Hi Mild,
I'm not sure if its legal to form an actual union for E-2 visa holders but teachers in my area (Daegu) are also interested in forming an 'Association'. I'd like to co-ordinate with your group. Please send me an e-mail if you are interested.
Richard
> Teachers in my area have had two gatherings, and we are serious about
> the union. I also had an email from a friend in China, and they
> already call their groups 'union'!
> Solidarity!
> Together, we will get there!
> Mild
Dos
- 2004-10-30
Perhaps I was wound up a little tight!
Anyhoo, really, I am fine here. I am afraid I, perhaps selfishly, am not here to get involved with Chinese politics and human rights. I will do my little bit teaching the upcoming generation. A single step and all that.
For money etc. Well, it seems I could earn more in Korea, but I am here now, and have been for more than two years and I don't feel like changing again right now, plus my Chinese girlfriend may have problems following if I did. I save US$500 a month here, which can mount up over time and, as you rightly say, I can live nicely on the rest. No, I am quite happy here. In 4 of 5 years maybe I will have a different view. Until then...
Ciao!
P.S: Sorry for comparing you to an American! 
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-10-30
Hopefully wherever you are, you arent dodging your obligation to the US Army. We sure need more of you to catch a few bullets. One less mouth like that and we have more resources for the more deserving.
Beatrix
- 2004-10-30
With manners like yours no wonder you are an outsourced worker. Hopefully where ever you are, they don't understand your drivel.
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-10-29
Dos, Dos, Dos..Before I get started, please go grab a beer or two and listen to one of your favourite $1.00 Chinese bootlegs to relaxplease.
First, what do you mean by
I live here is just as good, maybe more so than anywhere else?
If you mean relative to their economy, you would be right on every account. If you mean relative to richer, I wont use first-world lest I offend again, then I would disagree. Yes, you probably have a big flat, go out every night to eat and have basically the same as in the West. But heres the rub, when you leave to go back to the West, your poor again. That's not for me. In the long haul, I need to save money now...the globe trotting for kicks isn't what I need because cold hard cash is what I need...so that was my reasoning anyway.
Now, you say that you plan to stay forever in China because you love it. Ok, thats great and your opinion. You wont get me all riled up like you were about my point. If you love China, great. But that wasn't my point but I respect you love China...no arguments there.
My point is that China IS NOT and WILL NOT for some time, have laws that protect human rights. I have many Canadian-Chinese and an American-Chinese that will attest to that. However, even though my preference would not be to live and work in China for those reasons, I would guess that China WOULD be a GOOD place to work teaching English for a year or two. In fact, I WANT to VISIT China for a few months because I know I will learn and see a lot.
I will vehemently disagree with you on their record for human rights: to justify things by saying it hasnt happened to me or they DO treat foreigners better than their own is weak at best. Sorry, but it is. These countries, I wont call them third-world, like China have some catching up to do, thats all.
Lastly, my dear friend Dos, PLEASE DONT COMPARE ME TO AN AMERICAN!!!!!!!!
Yes, America has a VERY bad human rights record now. Thats why I mentioned Canada. I love Canada and plan to go back someday.
Yes, we must all live a little. Thats why if you read my post, I said Ive traveled many, many places in this world and its been that travel and living abroad thats opened my eyes a lot.
Peace and pleae go grab another beer..I think you need it 
Dos
- 2004-10-29
The very fact that the developing nations don't have the laws that the developed lands have is an attraction for me, rather than the opposite. There may not be some types of security, but I feel safer in China than I have ever done in the west, certainly in the good old US, where the right to bear arms has killed more people than Chinese tanks! (I am not saying that govts killing their own is a good thing here of course, and don't condone that action).
However, I was fed up of the nanny state west, where you are taxed to the hilt and spoon fed what is 'good for you'. Sick to the back teeth.
I have traded that 'security' for the less organized but more dynamic developing nations. The opportunities here are numerous if you know where to look.
I am not saying there are no risks, but I don't call being wrapped in cotton 'living'.
I do also realize, of course, that a more adventurous life is not for everybody. Well, that's your choice too of course.
As for crimes against humanity, I don't believe that the US has a right to criticize anyone at the moment, what with all the fiasco in Iraq, plus the torture camps, sorry, humane detention centers. 
I also don't think that there is any more 'distain' for foreigners in China than in the west. Perhaps (slightly misplaced) envy but not distain. I have seen more distain in the west that in China. Plenty more.
Not a good life you say? Again, I disagree. I too have been around the world, and had very nicely paid jobs in the west, but the life I live here is just as good, maybe more so than anywhere else.
There are risks, I acknowledge, but then there are risks getting out of bed. I believe you only have one life. I don't intend to sit around in a sanitized, but pretty environment being 'protected' from it. When I go, kicking and screaming into the cold damp earth I want to say I have been there, done that, seen those, lived damn it.
Ooooh, I think I need to go and lay down now... 
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-10-29
Peace loving Republican is an oxymoron.
Ok, have it your way, but you are just expressing your naivet, once again. Yes, in theory we're one world. But tell that to the countless people abused in those countries. You obviously arent a very astute practical person. Your wife may not like China for those reasons. Again, my Chinese-American friend wont go back to China since his parents were almost killed there.
Second, Im not saying those countries will not change. Im only saying that to live there a long time teaching English is flirting with failure.
Yes, I would like to see one world one day...Im still waiting. But, in practice that wont happen because we are different cultures and systems.
Your immigration problem bespeaks of how your logic works...or doesnt work. Anyway, you dont matter to me. Your quite a bore and the content in your responses are so mundane. Please spare us your high-school dribble.
me
- 2004-10-29
Hi! I am a peace-loving Republican (we don't kill babies) and love d living in China and went to south korea because my Chinese wife didn't love China as much as I do. The Chinese tend to treat foreigners better than they do their own countrymen and especially countrywomen.
to ESL in Asia, you used third world even though you say it is actually second world.
Truth is, isn't it all one world?
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-10-28
I'll e-mail since I'm in Japan now. A letter from Japan would not look good. Thanks for posting that. Every little bit helps. One person can't move a mountain but an army can.
Mild
- 2004-10-28
President Roh Moo-Hyun's Address:
Blue House, 77-6 Sejongno, Jongno-gu, Seoul
It's good to 'email' him as well. The address is in Britany's posting which I copied and pasted here.
Why not sending similar letters to other entities involved in forming the laws and policies in Korea - Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs, local newspapers, our Embassies, and Ministries of Foreign Affairs in our own countries, newspapers in our hometowns and capital cities.
It takes so little time to send 5 or 6 letters, while they do change our world forever. What's holding us back?!
Take part in making history!
Love!
Mild >-|
" The office of the President (Roh Moo-Hyun)
Republic of Korea email address is : webmaster@president.go.kr
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade:
Wegyo-tong, Song-bu 110-051, Seoul, Jongno-Gu,
Doryom-dong 95-1, Daepyo, Jonhwa.
Another one for letters. All this information is on the internet, but this last one was in Hangul-mal which I have managed to decode into English.
Love from Britany. "
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-10-28
Well, I expected some critique on that comment. But heres my defense. Of course I would NOT call them that to their face. Actually, they are second-world not third, but anyway. I merely pointed that out because it is a FACT that those countries DONT have the laws and civility other nations have.
As I reminded someone here before, Tiananmen Square in April-June of 89 was not so long ago. A Chinese-American friend I have left China because of that kind of f**cking crimes against humanity.
Stellas premise is that the riskier countries are better paying because of less taxes and regulation. However, back in Canada, or wherever, taxes are high, jobs are low, but things are regulated and safe. I reminded her, nicely, that it doesnt quite work like that.
Why? Because, poor countries will not pay out a wad of cash to some foreigner that they distain from the beginning, nor should they. Listen, Ive lived in some poor countries and had a great time. However, the pay and security was crap. I wouldnt have left North America if my job didnt go to India and white collar jobs are as hard to find now as a peace loving Republican.
But I did wise-up and go to Japan, another stable and rich country. And I must say that Im satisfied. Of course, Id like to go back home someday better prepared for a better job. I personally am fed up with the Czech Republics and the xenophobic unregulated countries. Its simply NOT a good life. Japan is xenophobic, but not that much, its highly regulated and pays VERY well.
Even you, I might add, have problems with your visa and are considering efl-law. Do you enjoy that??? Is that a barrel of laughs, eh? In fact, your experience sounds a bit nave for someone your age. Ive traveled a lot, I mean a lot, and I dont have those kind of problems because I can smell a rat. Remember, you are JUST a foreigner in those kinds of countries: end of story.
You can sound altruistic about them all you want, but to them, you are a scummy foreigner who has no right to complain: you can just get the hell out of the country if you dont do it our way. Thats the difference between Korea, China and shall I say it, the first-world.
Peace out
me
- 2004-10-28
It's a little difficult to be successful and happy anywhere if you are going to use the insulting term of third world and think of the people in that way. I don't think that most South Koreans nor Chinese think of themselves as third world - and the pay in South Korea rates with anywhere in the world. In China, certainly the pay is much less, but then again, so is the cost of living.
All things are relative to misquote Einstein.
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-10-27
You get what you pay for.....more tax, more security and peace of mind. Cleaner streets.......
Better a meal of vegetables where there is love than meat with hatred
Peace comes at a cost.
Youre not from Canada are you? I'm not sure if youre referring to China but I wouldn't say the risk of an unregulated country means more money. I earn more in Japan in one year than I could in 5 years in China. I taught in the Czech Republic where a teachers salary there would buy a beer and a bag of chips in Western Europe.
The big money, if you call it that, is from your own school or many, many private lessons in a week. But we aren't talking 6 figure incomes here.
I like your perky enthusiasm, Stella. I know you are a good person and teacher so I'm not out to derail you, but first-world countries like Japan, Germany and Canada are better places to live than China or Korea. I've lived in 6 countries now and I have the luxury to compare. Being in a third-world country is great for a few kicks but the long term stinks. Anyway, just my take on it.
Cheers
Stella
- 2004-10-27
WEll done Mild, I am so proud of you guys for stepping out. Do you have the address for snail mail letters for everyone else to use. Yes, Alan did have the wrong President. 
Thought for the day:
You know the different types of investments; low risk and low interest, medium risk and medium interest, and high risk and high interest.
I can draw a parallel here to working at home with huge tax rates-to lower return, but with low risk.
And teaching somewhere with no laws is like the promise of high returns for high risk.
Another thought of the day:
You get what you pay for.....more tax, more security and peace of mind. Cleaner streets.......
Peace comes at a cost. 
Better a meal of vegetables where there is love than meat with hatred.
Love from Stella. 
Mild
- 2004-10-26
Last week I sent a letter to the presidential palace, but to the wrong president!! I am sure that ended up in the bin. Thanks to Alan 
I sent another letter to the palace, today - this time to the right president! I also sent a copy of the letter to the KH newspaper, and I look forwards to seeing it published.
Teachers in my area have had two gatherings, and we are serious about the union. I also had an email from a friend in China, and they already call their groups 'union'!
Solidarity!
Together, we will get there!
Mild
Beloved friends,
This letter has been revised! Thank you, all!
It is not for anyone to copy, but it is posted here to give you some ideas, and to be a reminder of our power - that even as individuals we can do a lot. Of course so much power, coming together, will make a hell of an International Teachers Union to descend upon those who care to think of abusing a foreign teacher!
My messages are never perfect. My perceptual reaction to extreme frequencies (from the monitors) cause my having grammatical, and even mistakes in names; but that shall not stop me from fighting for our human rights!
We are on the road to greater freedom, and it just gets better, everyday as we keep together!
Love you all!
Alan
Here is my letter to President of Korea. I am sending similar letters to my country's ambassador here, and to our minister of foreign affairs - asking them to make a stand, for us!
Dear President of Korea!
With great love and respect toward you and the people of the Koreas!
I am a foreign teacher living in Korea, and I do see this world as home to great many nations who can live as siblings together, with great kindness, and in the spirit of equality, love, and happiness for all.
I have lived in Korea, for quite a few years, and grown quite fond of the kind and lively people of this part of the planet which I do consider as my home away from home.
Mr. President, I and many other friends who came from all over the world, became very happy and hopeful about the future, when in 1998 we read the presidential decree for fair treatment of the foreign employees in Korea.
It did make a difference in our spirit and in our understanding of the fast development of democratic culture in Korea. In that year we saw a fine image of the Koreans' love and their welcoming and respecting people of other nations.
Many foreign investors and a greater more foreigners started to look at Koreans with appreciation for their being a free, democratic, and loving people.
Unfortunately, the points of that decree, and the Korean labor law were never enforced in the workplaces, any better than before. Not even that; two years later, a few persons who did not agree with the American policy in the region, started to stir up emotions against Western employees in Korea, saying they sent home to much money.
Not seeing that most foreigners were not the American politicians, these persons introduced "legal" harassments on top of the illegal ones - on foreign workers, and justified it by using the law against many foreign teachers. Following the emotions of those days, the immigration officers started following foreign teachers, for days, to find out where they met their private students, so to arrest them on the spot!! Can we see the same enthusiasm when they enforce the Labor Law, please?!
It, takes a simple calculation to see that the amount of money wired out of Korea by the few foreign workers who live here, is many times smaller than what millions of Korean workers bring home to Korea, each year. And unlike in Korea, most these countries do not have a limitation on how much money is wired in to Korea, nor do they follow the foreign workers to see what they do in their free time. Isnt it nice to see the same respect in Korea, too?!
Just as a brief reminder, when we look carefully we see that the native teachers in Korea are actually the supporters of the top income-producing people of Korea, when you see where their students end up.
Most of the best Korean Statesmen, International Bankers, Businessmen and Business women, Investors, Borrowers, Stock Brokers, Business Owners, Pilots, Doctors, and about all VIPs of Korea have at some point needed and hired a private native language teacher, to teach them how to correspond with the rest of the world, in a foreign language! This also may be true in your and in your family's -case!
Thinking of the great students - it becomes clear that teachers' pays are infinitely less than what they help bring to Korea, in form of Industrial and Economic Agreements, International Sales of Korean products, Science, Development, Foreign Investment, and on top of all that, A Greater Image for Korea! Don't you agree?
As you are the representative of this kind nation, I ask you to kindly assign the authorities to bring an end to the arrests, to stop the abuse and discrimination against foreigners - Western or not; and to actually enforce the points of the 'Korean Labor Law' in the work places, by officers of the law paying unannounced visits to the workplaces, and checking if the employees do in fact have Contracts that follow the Korean Law ; checking if the employees are really being treated fairly, and with respect for their Human Rights; and checking if there is any sexual harassment, abuse, battery, missed payments, or any other unfair treatments in the workplace.
I believe the Korean labor law offers great rules for treatment of foreign employees, as long as the law officers are there to enforce these rules, and to punish those who abuse others!
Dear Mr. President, as you are a kind and fair human with great care for Human Rights of All People - Korean and foreigners, alike - I ask for your brotherly care, to bring a greater fairness and love between Koreans and foreigners, and to bring an end to: the arrests of the teachers, the illegal contracts, the employee abuse, battery, sexual abuse, and to any other attempt that would make foreign nations see Korea as anything less than a Place of Kind and Loving people!
With great hope, and with respect for you and this kind nation, I trust that your love and attention will bring Koreans and foreign nations closer, and promote more cooperation, and better international relations between Korea and our nations!
Your truly,
Alan S.