Stranger Passing By
- 2005-02-03
Look here:
OnceWritten
- 2004-11-11
Listen, grammar mavens. We're not writing Literature; we're writing letters. Creatively writing letters. So I think we're allowed to use sentence fragments. Stops and starts. Emoticons--find a place for those in your grammar book. And maybe not even letters, posts. They're a new form of writing; maybe all the old rules don't apply. Anyway, as long as we're communicating, ideas flowing around, it's loose and cool; let's enjoy it. 
OnceWritten
Beatrix
- 2004-11-04
As the saying goes,
"you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make HIM drink."
In your case, you'd prefer to be drunk on your own verbosity.
Beatrix.
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-11-04
Ferpectly right, you are perfectly right. May is a more polite modal verb to use for permission.
However, it depends on the person delivering the request. If they are abrasive and direct, as many Americans are by nature, then you could argue Can is right.
You brought up a good point about grammar: modal verbs. But hey, B.B can explain that to you with a little ditty ...A one...a two...clap your hands and sing this song.....Can I be abrasive? May I?..May I?....lala la laah....
Ferpectly right!
- 2004-11-04
I usually correct them at that point:
"May I go to the toilet please?"
Beatrix
- 2004-11-03
Why we learn English is completely covered when an ESl student asks a monolingual English teacher the question...Can I go to the toilet please?
Communication is the basis of learning English, the foundation, cornerstone, what-have-you. Why we learn a verb tense is more of an intellectual exercise best suited to someone more intellectual or of high school age upwards. Perhaps you are an intellectual-ex-medical student, but believe me, not everyone thinks intellectually like that, some do, however. May you find those who do. 
Beatrix.
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-11-03
Great! The simple tenses and the progressive tenses are very easy to explain and its usually where the understanding stops for most students that just play games. The other six verb tenses are also important and need a better understanding than just games. However, for kids, you cant go beyond that level.
No one is being anal retentive or pedantic when it comes to correct English. Yes, colloquial English is important, accent is important and above all, communication is important. Im not sure what the resistance is to T.A.Os assertion.
I think I was pretty clear when I said that none of these techniques are new: theyve been around a lot longer than we have. Im saying that a good teacher MUST introduce theory and practice. Thats how we really learn things on a solid foundation.
Im not arguing for any one system; rather, I find it amusing that people want to teach algebra without knowing why we use arithmetic. My point is why is as important as how.
Now, I think weve beaten that horse to death....you can even see the marks inflicted by those keen ESL teachers from the hallowed halls of modern education.
Beatrix
- 2004-11-03
I couldn't resist writing this title.
Well, personally my pedagogical belief system goes like this....The rich chocolate mix theory......
I learnt English by hearing, reading, doing, so I can't separate out one particular way of learning as the best, therefore, the teacher should include all methods, as sweetly as possible.
Sweetness for young learners includes moving around and participating in mime circles to learn grammar by doing. EG mime circle..What are you doing?
I'm dancing.(Present tense). Can be past tense too.
A child does an action and sits down. Ask what did he do? He jumped, etc. Could also be future tense.
You could aid this by drawing a time machine on a piece of paper, and having the students realise the paper represents tomorrow, etc. A student acts or mimes, then sits down outside the time machine.
Ask, What will she do tomorrow? She will eat a banana.
Obviously for older students, who prefer sitting down looking cool in front of their peers, might prefer book learning. Do what suits your students.
You might like to try the above method on a Friday.
We were taught the best method of teaching is facilitating a safe envirnoment, by encouraging and not coming down too hard or fast on mistakes, saying NO!, but instead, smile and say try that again, and supporting the learner.
Yes, it slows down the learning, but the students love the mime method, it's free or costs almost nothing, and effective.
The esl cake...
Ingredients: nouns, adjectives, verbs, etc previously learnt.
Mix: Make basic sentences.
Bake in a hot oven: Converse and make mistakes, learn from mistakes.
Cool: reflect on learning.
Frosting/Icing: Students learn proper-formal-written grammar.
Cake decorations: Graduate with diploma.
Every stage in learning language is valuable, so don't criticise another level or teacher!
Love from Beatrix.
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-11-03
You know, every generation thinks they have the patent on learning. Some call it "top down" and some call it "bottoms up". Some call it "pedagogy" and still others refer to it as simply "TESOL".
I find it comical, if not outright unusual, that these are new and perfected by certain programs or degrees. Platos works, if youve ever read Greek philosophy, proves that none of these concepts are new. Plato reasoned with both a top down and bottoms up logic, in addition to pedagogy.
My point is that teaching SHOULD NEVER be rote or repeat after me. All those cool ESL buzz words are just thatbuzz words. Now, I must also make my point clear that this doesnt mitigate the importance of pedagogy or any other techniques that can be mentioned.
Merely, I just find it funny that many VERY young teachers fall into the same trap like many before them: the wheel has been invented; you just need to know how to turn it!!!!!!
Anyway, T.A.O has a point about grammar instruction and I dont think he meant it should be rote and boring. Indeed, I cant tell you how many Asians, even with all that rote grammar in school, cant get articles or our verbs right.
Heres a case: what is the difference between Ive been trying it and Ive tried it? You see, this is where I would disagree with some on this board that Asians have more grammar than native speakers and others that say conversation can impart that major concept. Our verbs are the hardest around because they involve time, order and duration. We have these cool grammar terms like past progressive and perfect progressive, to name some of the 12. That DOESNT exist in Japanese or Chinese.
I would find it very interesting if you could teach that concept without touching a grammar class. And.oh, oh.sorry I didnt mean to start with and.In addition, I mean, Ive gone to university with a bunch of very bright Chinese students and they couldnt get past the present perfect (they also omitted or incorrectly used articles).
When I observed an English class in Japan, I saw something like this:
The man over there by the tree has the name of Jim. Students that werent asleep on their desks were just writing down the verbs and nouns. I didnt see the teacher explain anything more than some simple verb tenses in this sentence.
This is my point: conversation practice is important and so is grammar from a native English teacher!!!!!!!!
the observer
- 2004-11-03
You are ony partially correct, q2. The conjunctive adjunct "and" is - at least in formal written English - only ever used to connect two like clauses (i.e. either two dependent or two independent clauses). However given that the Arrogant One's offering is presented in a context that does not specifically demand a formal Register, it would be considered extremely pedantic to identify this informal use as "an error".
I would however advise you to ignore much of this Arrogant One's braying on this forum. Although his posts are often quite a good read, he obviously has next to no grounding in contemporary ESL pedagogy or linguistics and will have absolutely no right to make the claim that he is in some way is superior to any of those who read and post here until he gets it. Unfortunately, time is not on his side, and neither - I guess - is enthusiasm.
Keep up the good work q2; looks like you're making good progress with English.
Beatrix
- 2004-11-02
Starting a sentence with And is for colloquial spoken language, so then if you have a "horse" who teaches spoken English, then so what.
If you are a grammar teacher, then you will be neatly polishing your sentences, and NO, don't start a sentence with And.
So when you five year olds are reading this board, just remember,that some people do actually write-how they would speak out loud.
And that is fine for you little junior learners of English.
All you have to do is relax, and wait till you're just a little bit older, until you get your turn at
proper written language. There is a difference.
"AND HAVE FUN!" I wish you many many icecreams and hapiness!
Beatrix
The Arrogant One
- 2004-11-02
> you id##t! dont start a sentence with "and". a sentence
> represents something, thats why a full stop(.) is used - to represent
> the end of a thing. that is, it's self contained. it may not
> represent the whole context it is used in, but nonetheless it is
> still self contained in meaning. the word "and" is to
> combine two things together, so logically you shouldn't use
> "and" at the start of a sentence. i'm just a 5 year old
> local chinese student and look i can spot you st##id mistakes you
> amatuer teacher!
====================================================
GADZOOKS AND LITTLE FISHES!
Annudah Chineeze "EXPOIT" in are midst! Not only duz dah bum misspell "amateur," but don't know nuttin' about "caps", "commas" ... or WHUTTEVAH! Maaaaaan ... deze guys iz REAL PROUD (...o' nuttin'!)! I shooda ree-mained teachin' at moi Brooklyn P.S.! Now, DAT'S where I kin get moi grammah point ac-rawss! Cheeeeeze!
The Brookl... er... The Arrogant One
Ferpectly right!
- 2004-11-02
AND you shouldn't start a sentence with 'but'or 'because'either.
You should also start a sentence with a C A P I T A L letter of course! 
q
- 2004-11-02
you id##t! dont start a sentence with "and". a sentence represents something, thats why a full stop(.) is used - to represent the end of a thing. that is, it's self contained. it may not represent the whole context it is used in, but nonetheless it is still self contained in meaning. the word "and" is to combine two things together, so logically you shouldn't use "and" at the start of a sentence. i'm just a 5 year old local chinese student and look i can spot you st##id mistakes you amatuer teacher!
Robert Newman
- 2004-11-02
The system is pretty much the same in Thailand. Students are given English grammar lessons from grade 1 up to leaving university. The average Thai grade 10 student will run rings round the average western English teacher here when it comes to knowledge about English grammar. Unfortunately they can't speak the language to save their lives The only Thai students that can communicate effectively are those that have had years of exposure to a decent English teacher that helps the students to THINK about what they are learning, instead of regurgitating the same old tired lines from a book.
Having taught here for twelve years, one of the funniest things that I ever heard was one of my weakest students in a business English class told me she was stopping learning. When I asked her why, she told me she was going to become a teacher back in her home village. I asked her what subject. English. Sh could barely put three words together in the language, but was going to teach it. After all she graduated university with a BA in English language.
Good here in' it?
Robert
Dos
- 2004-11-02
Interesting points.
In China the students are taught grammar until it is coming out of their ears.
The (private) school I currently teach at concentrates on oral English, because really, Chinese students can be quite bad at it! It is a strange thing really.
I attribute it to the Chinese educational system, which is strongly biased towards exams. As none of these exams are oral, no emphasis is placed on this skill. Hence even the Chinese English teachers often have terrible spoken English.
Beatrix
- 2004-11-01
The repeat after me from 8 line dialogues is what we used in Korea too for the older students.
According to learning theory, it is called
Phonemic Recoding, the process whereby the learner internally connects sounding out the phonemes with the grammatical meaning of the words, so relax guys, a whole lot is happening in this context.
Remember when you learned to read? You were reading out aloud simple gramatical sentences with meaning.
These sentences are usually conversations in the esl context. This is the most meaningful context to them. These students have a myrarid of bilingual texts they can study at home if they desire. If they aren't making much progress don't blame yourselves.
They are getting what they need from you, and they should be reviewing the material in their spare time.
Relax, etc. 
Love from Beatrix 
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-11-01
Here..here my dear T.A.O. You are bang on and more apt at making that point than I. Teaching ESL is easy for some, because, lets face it, youre teaching your native language...how hard is that? Even if you're a high school drop out, you may very well pull that one off. Heres where you weed out the charlatans: get them to teach math or social studies. You see, if one teaches in a field that actually requires dedication to learn the subject matter deeply, other than being born with it and using it every day, then it is MORE challenging to teach it. One actually has to get an organized lesson plan and be prepared to explain concepts. I realized when, as a science major and math minor in university, tutoring calculus wasnt so easy because teaching it and knowing it are two different entities. Sadly, at that time, I just wanted money for my education and I wasnt too serious about imparting knowledge.
Ok, back to the grammar point. Its troublesome that many ESL schools in Asia, and as Ive now learned, the Middle East, tend to think that conversation will impart all the English youll ever need. If thats the case, why are so many Asians that are graduates of these schools conjugating verbs incorrectly, dropping articles and losing the subject-verb agreement????
My case in point: In Europe, they teach towards the Cambridge exams, which in my opinion seem harder than the TOEIC or TOEFL. Having a romance language notwithstanding, Europeans seem much more apt at learning many languages compared to non-Europeans. Why? Maybe, I postulate, that its because they are grammar Nazis. Yes, Ill get reamed for that hyperbole...so sue me.
I submit to the audience that grammar can be taught in a FUN way. You know, I just got back from teaching in a Japanese elementary school where Japanese lessons are repeat-after-me and follow-the-bouncing-ball. Its no wonder they hate grammar.
Its the educational system!!!! The Asian system is rote and boring. I witnessed it. When I did my class, the kids loved it. Its amazing what fun you can have with a rubber ball to stimulate some pair work and student-to-student interaction. They didnt even know I was hitting them with grammar.... not the ball.
So in short, the trick is not to use the G word in front of them. You have to sort of slip them grammar lessons like ESL schools slip us bad contracts we never know.
Beatrix
- 2004-11-01
Dear Arrogant One,
It all depends on your perspective in Language acquisition and which University you attended.
There are conflicting theories, whether you teach Top down or bottom up.
Top down is teaching through topics which is a lot more interesting to the learners. Pick a topic from the newspaper, or for example-going for a job interview. Here is good scope for free talking , as well as some that the teacher has thought relavent to teach.
Bottoms up is teaching the smaller aspects of language such as phonics. It's the nuts and bolts, very dry without the thematic approach. This is why you will notice books with major and minor objectives-the major objective is the theme and related conversation, with some phonics practice.
As for books, every Korean likes to possess a book, it's a source of great pride. We were told that photocopied handouts were like sh#t, and were thrown onto the ground. Books are useful for the family to see progress, as the parents often know English, and like to see at home what the student has covered during the lesson. Often brothers and sisters go to different classes or schools and compare notes at home to get value for money.
I guess in your case teaching older students, they can review the material at home, or you can use the book as a prompt for conversation.
In my case when I was teaching in Korea, I didn't have any books. When my director said "Wow what a great job you are doing and what are you doing?"
I replied "I'm teaching them nothing but garbage( I obtained some books out of the recycling section of the garbage-outside the apartments).
Love from Beatrix.
The Arrogant One
- 2004-11-01
OH, B.B. ....
What you have to say is soooooooooo f#@#!!< true, while it makes me pleased to know that someone else recognizes the fact! WHICH FACT is that? Weeeelll, lemme tell ya: the simple fact that most of the ESL courses (even here in the States) -- with the exception of TOEFL and TOEIC preparation (which is what I currently teach!) -- are conversation-heavy! I have a theory about that. See if you agree. ESL is, in the concept of most school owners, easy pickings, and, IF they succeed in getting the ball rolling, it'll yield the desired moolah. But, in order to guarantee at least a good shot at making a killing, the wise owner will concentrate on what the students usually want in an ESL course ... conversation and plenty of it! This being the case, then WHY all the required sales of grammar books, reading books, and listening books before each semester? Once again ... it's the old $$$! That's probably the long and the short of it all. Notwithstanding, I still prefer teaching grammar ... and to students whose objective is to enter colleges and universities by way of the TOEFL exam.
B-U-T, my dear B.B., don't you think it would be kind of "nice" to prove to foreigners that we, indeed, know SOMETHING MORE about our native language besides merely speaking words in the usual stereotyped and unimaginative manner? I, for one, opted to teach this language in an orthodox fashion, and to stimulate the creative use of same via the regular employment of correct grammar, as well as all other tools at one's disposal. But, alas, it would appear that so many charlatans have jumped on the Oriental ESL bandwagon just knowing they probably will never be called on to engage in anything more serious that a conversation. Ahhhh, c'est la vie, I reckon.
Peace,
The Arrogant One
====================================================
> Hello O Arrogant one!
> The last time I took my red elementary grammar book into class in
> Korea,........well what a reaction! The students hated it and said it
> was like a test.
> I wasn't allowed to use it after that. It was officially banned.
> Then we had to focus more on conversation.
> In an indirect way I am saying to you-don't worry so much about the
> mistakes in writing on this board, because the esl schools are
> wanting charismatic easy go lucky conversationalists more
> than
> up-tight-anal-retentive teachers who are perfectionsists. Beatrix
> the beautiful....
x21
- 2004-11-01
Ich will deinen geist befreien, AO. Aber ich kann dir nur die tr zeigen, durchgehen musst du ganz allein.
Auf Wiedersehen, Herr AO.
Piefke
Beatrix
- 2004-11-01
Hello O Arrogant one!
The last time I took my red elementary grammar book into class in Korea,........well what a reaction! The students hated it and said it was like a test.
I wasn't allowed to use it after that. It was officially banned.
Then we had to focus more on conversation.
In an indirect way I am saying to you-don't worry so much about the mistakes in writing on this board, because the esl schools are wanting charismatic easy go lucky conversationalists more than
up-tight-anal-retentive teachers who are perfectionsists.
Beatrix the beautiful....
The Arrogant One
- 2004-11-01
> Fhrt der bauer raus zum jauchen,
> wird er nachts ein deo brauchen.
> Der Piefke
============================================
Schne .... ZEHR SCHNE, lieber Herr Piefke!
Auf Wiedersehen!
The Arrogant One
- 2004-11-01
> Let's face it AO, you have some sharp insight to the BIG picture.
> you're pretty cool guy.
> you know many so-called native English speakers have horrible command
> of English, and I'm not talking just about those who try to teach.
> I'm talking about, your average Americans, don't speak English very
> well themselves.
> They live in America everyday and can't speak or spell very well.
> So they shouldn't come to asia parading around as "experts"
> of their language.
==================================================
Thanks, A., for the kind words. I appreciate that very much.
I think you pretty well comprehend what I was trying to say ... that the undeniable fact that so damned many of the so-called foreign experts, originating from places such as the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc., are not truly qualified to enter an ESL classroom, much less consider themselves teachers! This is a most embarrassing fact to have to recognize ... especially being an American, myself. The problem is that so many of the owners of ESL schools on both sides of the Pacific speak little or no English, haven't the slightest concept of HOW to teach, or care about anything other than moving bodies for profit! It's ludicrous to closely observe the inner-workings of some of the ESL schools right here in Los Angeles. Teachers, for the most part, are chosen for their youth and typically Anglo-Saxon looks ... many with (at best), little or no experience in the field. But, not to worry; during these relatively hard financial times here in the States, there's a veritable army of clones waiting in the wings for their first crack at the old ESL game! What happens to the first batch who don't fair too well on their first job in the States? You guessed it. They usually wind up in China or Korea where they're welcomed with open arms and given the opportunity to continue their acting careers. Ergo, the combination of the unqualified, inexperienced foreign expert with the likewise inexperienced, confused and ultra-shy student, is a perfect setup for a case of the blind leading the blind! The problem in the States is that we really have no effective on-line teachers board to handle domestic ESL teaching issues, much less detect the handicaps of those who are unjustifiably well settled in teaching positions. Perhaps the more astute instructors here are aware of the handicaps of some of their colleagues -- especially those whose presence on the scene has been tolerated for many moons -- yet, nothing is ever said to endanger anyone's job. The only thing we DO have to ensure any consistency on the part of the instructors here in Los Angeles is a system of mandatory workshops in association with the renewal of one's ESL teacher's license. However, NOT EVERY ESL school in the city strictly enforces the necessity of one's even possessing the damned license! Thus, if very little or absolutely no action is ever taken here to guarantee the professionalism of ESL instructors, then you can be pretty confident that nothing earth-shattering will ever occur in the Asian ESL marketplace to both recognize and maintain a desired professional standard of instructional quality.
All the best from,
The Arrogant One
x21
- 2004-11-01
Fhrt der bauer raus zum jauchen,
wird er nachts ein deo brauchen.
Der Piefke
The Arrogant One
- 2004-11-01
> AO.
> Das geht dich einen feuchten Dreck an!
===================================================
Not a terribly friendly sentiment, Mein Herr! REMEMBER: EVERYONE has the right to his/her opinion
... even an old f*art like l'il ole moi. In the final analysis, if you don't like it, Mate ... STUFF IT! 
The Arrogant One
A.
- 2004-11-01
Let's face it AO, you have some sharp insight to the BIG picture.
you're pretty cool guy.
you know many so-called native English speakers have horrible command of English, and I'm not talking just about those who try to teach.
I'm talking about, your average Americans, don't speak English very well themselves.
They live in America everyday and can't speak or spell very well.
So they shouldn't come to asia parading around as "experts" of their language.
So ... is ESL merely the easiest way for any jackass -- you know, the would-be's, the has-been's, and the never-wases -- to enter the ESL game??? Not that I rank as God's gift to the ESL biz, the number of serious grammatical errors I've noticed being committed on this board by so-called English "teachers" is, to say the least, most appalling, if not criminal! The real shocker, however, is that such gross inefficiency doesn't stop at the ESL instructor in Asia, for, alas, it appears to be a universal problem of English language education. Of course, once in a blue moon , even I will be guilty of a typo, misspelling, or word omission, albeit the repetition of such problems appears to be evident on the part of many of the contributors to this forum -- and, I'm not speaking only of those for whom English serves as a second language! ME -- I'm already around the proverbial bend, but as for so many of the younger teachers already deeply embedded within the the teaching of ESL ... MEIN GOTT! ZEHR UNGLAUBLICH IST DAS! Or, as they so wisely say back in good, old Brooklyn, "It ain't no good showin' ... NO HOW!"
As many of you may know, I am a staunch supporter of the AZAR BLUE (grammar) BOOK, while amongst my students I refer to it as The Holy Bible of English Grammar! Yes, there are innumerable teachers here in the USA who are quite competent in their use of this method, while, alas, so many others using same on a regular basis tend to robotically review its many exercises without personally manifesting very much of the knowledge the book represents. And far too many of those very same culprits will all too often wind up in schools in the PRC, Korea, and even in Japan. Thankfully, however, there are a few of us in this forum -- i.e., E_S_L in Asia and Dos -- who can cut the mustard like true professionals, albeit what we regularly witness is ... well, it's positively appalling and hardly indicative of what Asian employers anticipate so far as their foreign experts' expertise is concerned.
Guys, I'm not at all suggesting that you should quit or go back to school. Quite to the contrary, I'm merely indicating you put in a little extra time each day ACTUALLY digesting the material you teach. Then, when you "practice" same on the Teachers Board, it will show! After all, WE are the foreign experts, whereas, not so very long ago, there weren't that many of us around for Asian ESL schools to boast of. Surely, in such a position of exclusivity, ours is naught but TO ACTUALLY BE the very experts we represent.
Love to all,
The Arrogant One