laodeng
- 2005-01-03
Thanks for them kind words, TAO. Here in China, things are indeed a little more straightforward.
Now, if I could instill two practices (which will never happen, of course), potential-employee/potential-employer relations would be ever so much better. First, it would, believe it or not, be lovely to get rejection notes or calls--much better than being left slowly twisting, etc., etc. Second, if they could only stop the practice of interviewing you, maintaining a dead silence for weeks, and only then (after you may have been lucky enough find another job) calling you and expecting you to be ready to start the next day.
But this is the real world. Why should they give a rat's arse about MY mental health?
Carry on, TAO!
The Arrogant One
- 2005-01-03
> I love you, o Arrogant One, and you're usually 100% on target. But
> I'm afraid that you're a bit off-target in your inference (if I read
> this correctly) that age is respected in China.
> I'm afraid that this Confucian ideal actually went out the window
> when China de facto rejected communism and embraced dog-eat-dog
> capitalism. Even in universities, but particularly in private
> schools, young faces sell. (Young Caucasian faces, that is.) Forget
> about experience, forget about ability--image is all important. Even
> many universities are specifying in their ads that candidates must
> not be older than 50.
> It all sucks mightily. Perhaps the schools will see the error of
> their ways, but I doubt it.
My dear laodeng,
You know, you're also dead-on about many things yourself, guy! In the case of the age situation, it's probably generally true that respect for one's elders no longer exists in China the way it did before the onslaught of capitalism in its domain. As you infer, as incredulous as it may seem, dog-eat-dogism is apparently the newly embraced philosophy of The Peoples Republic. Ergo, I guess I should consider myself "lucky" in having bagged not one, but two gigs in the past few years, albeit I didn't elect to stay on either one of them long enough to reach any definitive conclusions about the culture of that land!
Now that I recall, about 12 years ago when I was hired for a teaching/management position in Tokyo (one which, incidentally, I retained for 5 years), upon congratulating me for having won the post, my new employer made certain he got his licks in at the onset: "I hope you realize that I wouldn't normally think of hiring anyone YOUR age (55 at that time), but you have something special to offer me that it would take many moons to ferret out from a different source!" And thinking further, I can now recall my sarcastic retort: "So, Sensei, does that mean you want me to promise you my first born?!" I saw the disenchanted look on his kisser, but he was diplomatic enough to laugh it off ... and thank goodness, as it was one of the best positions I've ever held in the ESL biz.
Granted age discrimination sucks to high heaven, if, indeed, Chinese and Japanese ads are now specifying age limits for applicants, you might say they're at least being honest about it up front. Here in the USA, however, as it is illegal to specify age, sex, religious preference, etc., etc. in an ad, one doesn't really know where the hell he/she stands ... not even at the interview! Imagine: an employer can't even level with even a prospective employee due to any possibility of an infringement of his/her rights. My God! Just think for a minute about all the wasted interviews, anxieties dashed asunder, and bad feelings as a result of what has turned out to be merely a matter of non-productive protocol. That is one of the problems we active individuals in their 60s must face each time we apply for what we believe is a job totally within our realm of interest and capability. This is why so many of us over 65 have decided to pack it in and take up fishing as a more fitting activity. But, then there are those of us who can't afford to retire ... and this is the exact point where we raise the question of age discrimination. As you say, laodeng, perhaps the schools will one day see the error of their ways, though, like yourself, I doubt whether this will ever take place.
Have a Happy-Happy!
The Arrogant One
Lucy
- 2005-01-01
I am a Non- Native qualified and experienced English teacher-woman,still young becauseI have always worked with young people, who worked in China for 4 years successfully and I think the most important is to know how to teach your students to think in English and to forget about their mother tongue which is the biggest enemy for foreigners learning a foreign language. It is an Art! If a legal high school in China needs such a teacher,write me to: tsangch2005@yahoo.com I will respond you. Thanks
Another teacher
- 2005-01-01
I can understand you getting pessimistic , sometimes I feel the same when after sending my resume outlining two years experience of teaching ESL in CHINA ,together with with all the stuff they require ,I often get requests for clearer ,or even full-length photographs.
I'm seriously thinking of sending a photograph of myself strewn across a sofa ,wearing nothing but a pair of boxer shorts ,(or maybe even butt naked!) , with a glass of champagne in hand ,and a rose clenched in my teeth.
Maybe the offers will come in thick and fast after that! It's easy for many of us to get cynical ,but we must look at the positives.There are many schools in China for instance, who really do want real English teachers.
Someone mentioned Universities earlier. I still believe that good ,experienced ,older ESL teachers will find good rewards in targeting Universities for employment ,particularly in China .
Keep your head up , and give it all you,ve got and I'm certain that there will always be schools who will acknowledge you , and reward your efforts with good employment.
Remember, with our English language we have a golden key that unlocks doors all over the world. As ESL teachers, we can teach nearly anywhere in the world.
Just by hopping on a plane somewhere ,we can make a living that enables us to explore and discover many interesting places and cultures,learn new languages , and meet many different people,yes, even the older ones amongst us! .Yes, variety is being an ESL teacher!!
There are not many professions where people are able to do what we can .I personally know of a 71 year old who's teaching English in Yunnan , China right now!!. How do I know ? Well she actually teaches in the same school as me!!Also she's already managed to secure furthur employment in China for next term.
There's hope for us all ,ESl is TRULY A GREAT PROFESSION! DON"T GIVE UP!!
esl in asia
- 2005-01-01
Yes, it can be a "real" profession. It's too bad, really. I guess I'm a pessimist: I don't believe it will change just to be fair. It's all about money and the how low can you go bottom-line.
another teacher
- 2005-01-01
You make some good points .Yes,many schools are turning the ESL proffesion into a farce,with their desire for young good looking comedians.
However I believe ESL is a genuine profession .Yes, anyone can do what many schools require from teachers ,namely to pull faces,sing,crack jokes ,jump up and down and play hangman for forty minutes or so ,but not everyone can teach English properly and well, lesson after lesson ,week in and week out to, often uninterested, or unmotivated students,while also making it interesting.
Injecting enough humour, or challenge into every lesson, while still improving your classes English is a REAL CHALLENGE!
It's not as easy as people say to be a truly sucessful teacher of ESL especially if you teach abroad!
esl in asia
- 2005-01-01
Yep, its that way in Japan. They dont want language instructors; they want white performers on stage that are young and preferably blond.
I think this whole ESL business is a load of sh$t. If this were a real profession, you would have competence and education be the factors in employment.
It all boils down to the fact that any warm body can teach English. It isnt skilled labour and employers will always pull this sort of crap. I think there are just many better career moves than ESL. In fact, I wouldnt call it a career.
laodeng
- 2005-01-01
I love you, o Arrogant One, and you're usually 100% on target. But I'm afraid that you're a bit off-target in your inference (if I read this correctly) that age is respected in China.
I'm afraid that this Confucian ideal actually went out the window when China de facto rejected communism and embraced dog-eat-dog capitalism. Even in universities, but particularly in private schools, young faces sell. (Young Caucasian faces, that is.) Forget about experience, forget about ability--image is all important. Even many universities are specifying in their ads that candidates must not be older than 50.
It all sucks mightily. Perhaps the schools will see the error of their ways, but I doubt it.
laodeng
- 2005-01-01
>
> Yes I think there should be an age limit to at least protect the
> school, but maybe 55 or 60, depending on health?
To protect the school from what, Songbird? Are you under the illusion that there are such things as personal-injury suits in China? Particularly if the plaintiff is a foreigner?
Do us all a favor and don't shoot from the hip.
Songbird
- 2005-01-01
There is another teacher at the university I am teaching at here in central China who is I think 56 or 57. I think she's a wonderful person and addition to the school and has so much ESL experience to pass onto others. Okay, she's a part of VSO (British voluntary organisation).....would you consider an organisation? At least then you would have some advice and guidance from them re insurance etc.
Yes I think there should be an age limit to at least protect the school, but maybe 55 or 60, depending on health? Older people are so inspirational!
Songbird
The Arrogant One
- 2005-01-01
> I've been thinking about taking an ESL course and wading into the
> field. But I'm 56 and most employers seem to want teachers under 40.
> How big a problem is this? Should an older person even bother getting
> certified?
Dear Ben,
The age problem DOES exist practically everywhere on this God's Green Earth, but not as acutely in some places as in others. However, I don't think the bias is necessarily generated on the basis of one's age alone. The way it was put to me by one honest employer last year (upon turning me down cold),
Good luck in the New Year, Buddy!
The Arrogant One
"It's often a question of THE SCHOOL'S INSURANCE LIMITATIONS and whether they are sufficiently covered should something happen to an oldster on the staff while on the school premises." He went on to explain that HE was put to the test a few years prior when a 65-year-old teacher fell down a flight of steps on her way to class one morning. She sustained a compound fracture and several sprains, all of which put her out of business for close to 9 months. Naturally, her husband sued the school, and after a nasty bout between lawyers, the victim was given an award of $1.7 million, later reduced to $1 million even! He went on to apologize for not even considering me due to his being gun-shy. I was 66 at the time. Now I'm pushing 68, but still very much at it. Lately I've had to be content with a fairly regular substitute-teaching position (average 3 nights per week) along with my Social Security, a few musical gigs, and some writing sales. But I'm almost 68 and you're a young 56! You want to get certified? Will apologies to Rocky Balboa, "GO FER-UT!" Even if you can't locate anything too exciting Stateside, there's always the ASIAN marketplace where, in many places, your advanced years will actually act as a plus. China is the most promising locale for such a circumstance -- ALBEIT, YOU MUST VERY CAREFULLY INVESTIGATE BEFORE MAKING ANY COMMITMENTS! In any event, if you REALLY want to pursue ESL instruction as your new area of concentration, I am certain, with the assistance of many new contacts, you will find your way to the most desirous and productive opportunity possible.
I've been thinking about taking an ESL course and wading into the field. But I'm 56 and most employers seem to want teachers under 40. How big a problem is this? Should an older person even bother getting certified?