TEACHERS DISCUSSION FORUM
Return to Index › Re: Can non native speakers get an excellent english teaching position in China with high salary
#1 Parent Yingwen Laoshi - 2008-11-21
Re: Problem of employing non-white/ native speakers: real or imagined?

Thanks, riddlemethis,

Sorry about the late reply, but I have been particularly busy with mid-terms and extra activities that I've been involved with, over here.

I agree with your point about white native-speakers being known to generally rock the boat. Schools in China, generally want yes-men who won't question things and make themselves "nuisances" (Actually, probably a worldwide phenomenon). Leaders, usually want to be left in peace to potter on in the same way they always have.

I'll write more when I'm less strapped for time. In the meantime, take care, and keep believing in what you are doing.

All the best,

Yingwen.

#2 Parent riddlemethis - 2008-11-07
Re: Problem of employing non-white/ native speakers: real or imagined?

Great post Yingwen - definitely thought provoking. Allow me, though, to add one more thing to your last paragraph. As a white, anglo saxon American I don't say this lightly, but I believe that the movement away from white teachers in China, though justified under the circumstances that you have mentioned, is often for the reason that we are more likely, because of our outspoken natures, to create waves in regards to curriculum, materials selection and the general scatterbrained approach to education that many administrators are given to. In other words, we rock the boat too much. Maybe it's sometimes a matter of opening mouth and inserting foot, but I think that more often it is a matter of having been raised and, in many cases, having worked in an environment where it is not only normal to state your opinion and thereby sometimes speak out against authority, but where that kind of assertiveness is encouraged if not rewarded. Even after five years in China, I still find it difficult to accept that my unsolicited advice will more often than not be met with a closed mind. When it is solicited, if it is followed, it will only be followed after a few months so that it appears to be their idea and not mine. Of course, by that time the damage has already been done.

I've often found myself in the position of waiting for my colleagues, those from other English speaking countries, to find their voices. The waiting goes on until ultimately it is an American that speaks out while being fully aware that he is in engaged in an exercise in futility. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this. Maybe I'm totally off the wall on this one. Opinions are welcome.

No matter what, I firmly believe that we're not only up against racism and false perceptions here, we're also confronted with a kind of anti-intellectual attitude that is a barrier in terms of progressive education.

Having said that, though, in regards to teacher behavior, there is a definite problem. Sadly, what John Smith does reflects negatively on me and others. I'll welcome the day when the screening process weeds out those given to the behavior you have cited. And believe me, I'd be the last one to defend Americans where said behavior is concerned. I spent two years in Japan in the sixties. I saw it there in abundance and I see it here again. Fortunately, I see it less in the younger generation. Maybe that's something to be thankful for.

#3 Parent Yingwen Laoshi - 2008-11-07
Problem of employing non-white/ native speakers: real or imagined?

Belligerence,

During the time that you worked at the three schools where you held the position of DOS, were there really THAT many cases where parents wanted children pulled out of the classes of "non-white, non-native speakers"? You didn't mention how common it was (or even if it was common). Was it rare? I ask, because, although I acknowledge that discrimination exists in China against non-natives, and non-whites etc. I believe that the major causes of this are not the parents or students, but the employers of such schools. One or two parents take their child out of a class and they panic. One child is afraid of a "Big Black person", so "no more black teachers for us". It's often a knee-jerk response to something that I believe happens not too frequently or even rarely in most schools in China.

While working at both a training centre and a chain language school in Beijing, I was informed by the leaders of the schools that particular black teachers were among the most popular teachers in both schools. I never saw or heard of students getting moved out of classes because certain teachers were not white native speakers. I'm not saying it didn't happen! It probably did on occasion, but it didn't happen frequently enough for people to notice, or for it to be a major problem. I think that this "problem" which is not a real problem at all, has been exaggerated by many school leaders in China, and they have panicked. They make a big issue of it, NOT the students or parents. This has lead to the sort of discrimimation that's been rife in China, over the years.

I've been lead to believe that generally the better the school, the less the discrimination. Public schools are often more serious about education and learning than private institutions. Where do you find most discrimination? Yes, mainly in private schools, and quite often the lower the standard the more discriminatory are the leaders. Some schools will not consider a non-white for a job position at all. I believe such schools are doing myself and my non-white colleagues a favour by seperating the wheat from the chaff. "You don't want black teachers? Great! You've just identified yourself as a school I wouldn't even work for if I was WHITE, because any school that won't even consider employing somebody on the basis of their skin colour, alone, is NOT A SCHOOL and cannot be SERIOUS about educating people. Good day and good riddance!"

I teach in a college in one of the most developed regions in China. The city is one of the most sought after places to live, by both Chinese and foreigners. There is a fairly large ex-pat scene here and ex-pats who work here tend to stick around as long as they can. During my two years of employment at this college, I have seen the school make quite a bit of progress in its educational programs. It is regarded as one of the top schools in the city and stands head and shoulders above all those in close proximity. It is FAR from perfect, though, and needs a lot more improvement. Yet, the leader of foreign affairs who spent a goood many years working in a Western country, has always maintained (to my suprise) that it has always been hard to find good teachers for this school. This college wants "real teachers". Presently the FT staff teaching at this college is comprised of the following:-

One white American
One black Briton (myself)
Two teachers from South American countries
One teacher from India
One teacher from a European country whose first language is not English
One teacher from the Republic of Ireland
One white South African

Previously, the school employed a Hong Kong woman who was brought up in a Western native-English speaking country, and she was extremely popular among the students.

This means, that out of the eight FTs presently employed at the college, only ONE can be considered a white native-speaker from one of the big five! Even the Irish guy doesn't really count as he is not British.

The point is, although this school may ideally want to have a completely white native speaking staff, they have obviously found it unproductive to do so. It's ridiculous to say that white native English speakers don't want to come to this city or school. This is no backwater, and this is not a poor school. I think that the school is actually discriminating AGAINST white native speakers. In the last few years this college has had problems with white native-speaking teachers who have beeen dating their own students: even those of their own sex, in one case where a bisexual guy was sexually active among the students. Others have been alcoholics, or made no effort to prepare decent classes, while another made a student pregnant.

From my personal experience, talking to others, and my musings on the Internet, I believe that a gradual shift is taking place all over China. Many of the better schools, because of past experiences, are actually looking away from white native speaking FTs, because they are increasingly earning reputations as irresponsible playboys that are only here for short-term fun and holidays. Instead, more responsible schools are looking for teachers from less developed countries who they feel may be more hungry for the opportunity; thus more appreciative, and so may be more inclined to work harder and be more responsible. I'm not saying that this is any more correct than discrimination against non-whites. However the decisions may be based on less superficial reasons than greed alone. This is the increasing reality that many white native-speaking FTs are increasingly finding to be true as time goes on.

#4 Parent Belligerence - 2008-11-05
Re: Can non native speakers get an excellent english teaching position in China with high salary

After going through this topic, I can understand the points made by most people here, but, I think that some of us need to become a little more realistic. I have been a teacher here in China for quite a long time. I have been the director of studies at 3 large schools. I agree that it's really not fair that your salary is somewhat dependent on what colour of skin you have. But, that is simply a reality here. I didn't make the rules but if we choose to live in this culture we need to accept the way things are. Is it fair? No. Is it the reality? Yeah! The employers view (usually but not always) is one of practicality and economics not racism. Remember, these schools are businesses, not government funded educational centers. The students and/or their parents are customers. It's the customers that are driving the market for predominately white native speakers because they (regardless of the reality), believe that this is what is best for their children. I have had parents withdraw their children from schools because I wouldn't move their child out of a class with a non-white, non-native English speaker even though they were very qualified and an excellent teacher (which is why I refused to move the students). Additionally, if you wanted to go learn, let's say - Italian, and you had to pay exactly the same price for a native speaker or a non-native speaker, who would you choose? If you said the non-native speaker, your full of it. But, if I could pay less to have the non-native speaker then all of a sudden, the non-native speaker has become much more marketable and I would consider using them until I got to a level where the native speaker could be of more benefit.

That said, there are a lot of non-native English speakers teaching here that are excellent teachers and deserve to be paid more. There are also a lot of native English speakers teaching here that shouldn't be teaching at at all. But, as long as the market demands a white, neutral accented, native English speaker; that's exactly what the schools will offer. It's a simple case of supply and demand.

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