TEACHERS DISCUSSION FORUM
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#1 Parent Seeking Advice - 2008-12-27
Re: Visa problems

Thanks for all the helpful advice!

I will keep you all posted on the path on which I decide to take. I have heard recently that the Chinese government is allowing multiple one year entries... I might be HIGHLY interested in taking that route since it seems to give more freedom that a working visa to residence permit. I feel like if I take that route I have some control.

I will know more by Monday as to exactly what is going to happen.

Thanks again!

#2 Parent doesitmatter - 2008-12-27
Re: Visa problems

How you proceed from this point depends on what kind of school you're working for. That is, if you're working in the public sector, your course of action will be different than if working in the private sector. Moreover, if you are working in the private sector you need to find out if the school you're working for is legally licensed. If they are legally licensed, your next step is to find out if they're legally licensed to hire foreigners. If they're not legally licensed and registered, then they had no right to hire you in the first place.

The next question of importance is whether or not your qualifications, backed up by documentation, can give you leverage. Meaning, if you are actually helping a private, unlicensed school to lure students simply by virtue of your white face and have no real credentials, then you are helping said school in a way that we in the West would call aiding and abetting. If your school is actually legal, and they haven't bypassed the rules to hire you, then you have more recourse than you might think.

Okay, let's assume you're working as a legal employee of a public school or university. Your first step is to get anything and everything in writing; that is, write the problems down clearly. Next, the IED at your university should be in possession of your Foreign Experts Certificate, unless, that is, they've already given it to you, which is rarely the case. The FAO will have given it to them after you obtained your visa. If they haven't given it to you, they will - if you sign for it. If they won't give it to you, carefully explain to them that you are legally within your rights to have it in your possession. Next, you make sure you have a signed copy of your contract - the English language version and the Chinese one. Then, of course, you must have your passport and have a clear understanding of what kind of visa you have. Take all three of these along with your list of grievances to a reputable lawyer. It won't cost you much and you'd be surprised at how much leverage it gives you. Your school, or college, doesn't want to go to court. The PSB doesn't want them to go to court. The IED and FAO don't want them to go to court. So, at that point, you will be entering into a period of negotiation spearheaded by your lawyer.

If you're working for a legally licensed private school, your modus operandi will be the same as above. However, you will actually have even more leverage because no matter what they tell you they are generally breaking the law in one way or the other, and they really don't want too much scrutiny. For example, although you may be a legal hire, they've probably got at least one member of the staff who is not.

Do not make threats. Don't even mention blacklisting them. Do not tell them you are hiring a lawyer. Let your lawyer make the first move. Do not do anything that gives them the impression that you're planning to fight them. If you've already given them an indication that you're not going to back down, give them reason to think that suddenly you've mellowed out. You love your students. You love China. You love Chinese culture. You love teaching. Smile. Don't show your hole card.

Yes, there is a general impression, that we as F Ts have no legal recourse, and that the contract doesn't actually protect us; however, I have seen it work in the favor of the FT and, again, it must be remembered that they, the Chinese schools and leaders of the schools, do not want negative publicity. Nor do they want their operations to be exposed to careful scrutiny. But you must remember to be a gentleman at all times. Don't give in to your anger. Show a willingness to compromise while finding that fine line between assertiveness and aggressiveness. Finally, though, remember that we're often viewed as meddlers and know it all Westerners who have no respect for the Chinese way of doing things. That's why you need the lawyer. First thing they'll do is sit and have a friendly cup of tea and talk about the weather. It'll take them an hour to get around to the topic at hand, and then it will be only lightly touched on. In other words they'll talk about talking about it later. Eventually, though, they will get down to the nitty gritty and it will be more about smoothing things out than actually reaching a settlement. You'll be asked to be a nice guy and make some compromises, and actually that may be your best move. After all, unless I'm mistaken, at this point it's all about enabling you to stay here without visa problems. In that context it may come down to whether or not it's important enough to compromise your principles, and, let's face it, we're living in a country where we must, practically on a daily basis, compromise our principles. If not, we'd probably be in a constant state of confrontation until shown the door.

Good luck. Please keep us posted. It's great to know how these things work out; unfortunately, in this forum and others, we often see the problem but never the result that comes about through a certain course of action. So, whether you follow my advice or that of another, it will be helpful for us all to know how it all turns out for you.

Happy New Year!

#3 Parent doesitmatter - 2008-12-27
Re: Visa problems

Well, having reread your post, I realize that you've already left the school, so that changes things a little. I would still advise seeing a lawyer, but now of course you'll have to make it clear that you were forced out by their unwillingness to compromise. Essentially, the lawyer will be representing you so that you can smooth things out with the PSB in terms of getting a new visa. It will be helpful if you have a letter of intent to hire from another school. Of course they will have to add the caveat that they will employ you as soon as this other matter is taken care of. Since they are well aware that a multitude of employers in China are shady characters, that shouldn't be a problem, but this time make sure you're working for a legitimate school, be it public or private. Give them lots of face by making them see how much you will value their advice and help. Make them see clearly that you have no agenda for being here other than being the best teacher you can possibly be, and that your real goal is to help the young people of China realize their dreams.

Above all, keep smiling.

#4 Parent Turino - 2008-12-27
Re: Visa problems

Seeking Advice said: "I really am not surprised with your problem, the Chinese especially seem to want to have as many tools as possible to ascribe retribution, even if it is undeserved. Your problem is a rather common one. You go on, do a good job, I assume anyhow, and they lie and deceive you.
Turino says: Already having been very unfairly treated imo by the FAO some 12 years ago, I've made it my business since then whenever possible to teach with L's or F's. In fact, I've just completed a contract in that manner,and was paid in full for my services, as usual.

#5 Parent Not surprised anymore - 2008-12-26
Re: Visa problems

I really am not surprised with your problem, the Chinese especially seem to want to have as many tools as possible to ascribe retribution, even if it is undeserved. Your problem is a rather common one. You go on, do a good jobn, I assume anyhow, and they lie and deceive you.

The truth is that teachers in this situation should talk to someone in the foreign affairs office, though little good it will do. In truth, if they lied, that means they broke the contract, and have no right to withhold a release letter. I would let them know this, and that if they dont give "you" the release letter that you deserve under the law, you will blacklist them. Believe it or not a school does not want it's good name, if it is good, or untarnished, to become tarnished. Threaten them, instead of taking their threats, and be loud and vocal about it. Also, get in their faces and demand, demand, demand. To be honest, in China, the one way to get what you want, if all else fails, is to be a total pain in the ass. They will give you the release letter just to get rid of you. If your a big enough pain in the ass, instead of just crawling away with your tail between your legs, I'd sure give it to you, and I'm stubborn as hell. Deep down people who are wrong usually know it when its a wrong of this nature.

In the end it all depends on how much you want to stir the pot, and stand up for yourself, or take it lying down. Believe me it will work, however it will require some work and effort, but you'll be amazed at how much not doing what they expect will get you. Plant yourself in the middle of the room, yell, don't let the boss work, talk to parents, students, be a pain. Make it so they actually call the PSB, than explain your side to them when they come. It's all about being an asshole and a pain.

As for legal recourse, I would say you need not bother. The system is heavily tilted towards the Chinese, it is their country after all, and they are quite racist in their application of the law, usually. You will be lucky to find any satisfication going through legal channels, so go through the asshole channel instead. The way I look at it is that hey, they took you there with their lies and bullshit in ther first place, so just wallow there a while and see how they like it. Hope this helps, and if not, sorry.

Seeking Advice - 2008-12-26
Visa problems

Hello fellow ESL teachers,

I have a problem that I am sure many of you are all too common with. I was working for a school and trying to put up with their lies, misinformation, and misguidance throughout my contract but at one point I couldn't take it any longer after throwing on some more lies. I won't go into detail on that but I assure you my decision was after an incredible amount of stress and anguish. I left the school after eight months. I have been in China over two years now.

Moving on to the important issue, is that I need a release and reference letter from the school. They don't want to give it to me without demanding a huge and unreasonable sum of money. Anyways, I can't renew my visa with another local school due to the lack of those letters. My visa is going to expire soon and I was wondering if there was anything I could to buy myself more time... some sort of visa switching?

I fear I may be blacklisted in this province and may have to jump ship due to this school's lies and misdeeds.

It's all a very big headache and could have been all avoided if so many Chinese schools weren't run by complete morons. I think this complaint system is unfounded without interviewing the teacher and his students to decide if it was just a mismatch(putting it nicely) or they clearly are a bad teacher (but of course that's asking too much in China) Can anyone give detailed advice? The province I am in now is Jiangsu.

Thank you for your information in advance,

Rob

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