Turino
- 2009-05-17
Yes,agreed;discussion ended;not angry either,in fact,happy as Larry,same as u!
Jay Gee
- 2009-05-17
Re Turino ...
The original poster 'doctorg' has vanished into thin air,it seems!But then a poster 'Jay Gee' surfaces all of a sudden from the depths!
'surfaces all of a sudden from the depths' = ????
This is an illogical response. doctorg's message was dated
May 7, 2009. Jay Gee's was dated May 14, 2009 ... that's
a mere 7 days. Not everyone accesses the discussion forum
every day!
Maybe some posters don't have enough to do at work,so they choose to utilise their spare time posting about some subject that will evoke differing responses that make some posters angry
angry????????? This is email. How can you possibly discern
'anger' from an email? No body language, no facial grimaces,
no tone of voice, no eye contact, but yet YOU are able to
deduce anger. Unbelievable.
Common sense dictates that the posting of ANY subject is likely
to elicit differing responses! WE don't all march to the same
drum.
with each other!I'd say bad manners
??? bad manners ???? again, your OWN interpretation.
indeed.Get a life,'d...g' or 'J...Gee',that's my advice!
Your advice was not solicited on this subject, so no need
Please note: END OF DISCUSSION
to have offered it. :-) <-- note the smiley face (not equal
to anger)
stillkickin'
- 2009-05-16
Well, aren't you the cheeky sort? Obviously, you've got a bit of maturing to do yourself.
Turino
- 2009-05-16
Yes,something like this has often happened on this board in the past - sb starts a thread and then lies low.The original poster 'doctorg' has vanished into thin air,it seems!But then a poster 'Jay Gee' surfaces all of a sudden from the depths!
Maybe some posters don't have enough to do at work,so they choose to utilise their spare time posting about some subject that will evoke differing responses that make some posters angry with each other!I'd say bad manners indeed.Get a life,'d...g' or 'J...Gee',that's my advice!
Jay Gee
- 2009-05-16
Most people do not rely on 'exceptions'; most people rely
on the rules. As to my original post, you should probably
read it again. Nide yuedu bu hao. :-)
(No need for a reply, as I think we are talking at cross
purposes here.)
Very Old China Hand
- 2009-05-16
Many older teachers get around this by obtaining an F visa, but F visas are expensive and inconvenient to get. In theory, it is also illegal to teach on a F visa, but many teachers do so anyway. Personally, I couldn't be bothered with all the hassle.
Actually, F's are not expensive if you're prepared to work for 'certain' recruiters in certain backwaters in China. Not inconvenient either! Even better, no medical to undergo!
stillkickin'
- 2009-05-16
I doubt seriously that you would actually expect me to infringe on the privacy of others by revealing their names here.
If you've been in China for 12 years, how could you not know that there are exceptions to every "rule?" That being the case, what was the exact purpose of your original post?
Jay Gee
- 2009-05-16
Re stillkickin's response ...
Sorry, stillkickin, but I'm not 'imagining' anything.
After having been in China 12 years, I'm well aware of how
the system operates. I know all about guanxi, degrees,
and the rest of it.
Perhaps you could provide some names of people
(65, or over) who have been issued a Z visa for
the upcoming year. (I'm not talking about an F visa;
I'm talking about a Z visa).
I look forward to your response. :-)
Jay Gee
- 2009-05-16
For stillkickin'
Hi again ... I don't think you read my comments very closely.
Had you done so, you would have seen that the age I indicated
was 65 years and older. As you are 'nearly 63', then obviously
you are still UNDER the age restriction for a Z visa, so
perhaps when you hit 65, you'll realize that black is black
and white is white.
Cheers
stillkickin'
- 2009-05-15
Yes, there IS an age limit in China with respect to the issuance of Z visas.
Teachers aged 65 and over are no longer issued Z visas.
Jay Gee
Sorry, Jay Gee, one might hope that things in China were as black and white as you seem to imagine. However, that's definitely not the case. If all schools that hire foreign teachers followed the guidelines to the letter, there would be far fewer FTs in China than there are, and I'm not just referring to age limits. I'm also referring to degrees and etc. FAOs and PSBs have the option of interpreting rules and regs in whatever way they see fit.
Jay Gee
- 2009-05-14
Yes, there IS an age limit in China with respect to the issuance of Z visas.
Teachers aged 65 and over are no longer issued Z visas. Many older
teachers get around this by obtaining an F visa, but F visas are
expensive and inconvenient to get. In theory, it is also illegal to
teach on a F visa, but many teachers do so anyway. Personally, I
couldn't be bothered with all the hassle.
Joe
- 2009-05-14
Not sure if this is correct in all circumstances. I worked with an American PhD who was 66. I'm just over 60 and have been offered another contract for a year. Some of the Chinese top professors are over 60. To paraphrase a well-known saying "If you're old enough you're good enough."
Some International Affairs officers seem to make up rules on the hoof because of one experience with one teacher who may have got ill. These 'rules' are then disseminated by well-meaning teachers and if you say something three times it is taken as the truth! If China really needs 100,000 native speakers a year, as had been quoted on this forum before, how likely is it that good candidates will be turned down?
Perhaps someone would like to print here for all to see th exact words of any official document.
On the other hand don't expect to get a job in South Korea as the retirement age is 55 and in one e-mail I had in response to an enquiry the reply stated that it was not discrimination but the " golden years" were expected to be enjoyed by senior citizens who should not have to work.
stillkickin'
- 2009-05-08
The truth, as I understand it, is that there is a an age restriction; however, like most laws/rules/regulations in China, said restriction can be ignored or viewed as a suggestion by the FAO and PSB if they feel like it or if the school can convince them that their needs can't otherwise be met.
I've been here nearly six years now and so far haven't had any problems finding a job. In fact, I'm nearly 63 and I've already secured a new job at a 1st tier public college for the coming school year. My advice, then, is to keep looking. But, as usual, be careful; that is, don't let desperation cloud your discernment to the point that you get taken in by the charlatans.
It is interesting, though, that such restrictions do exist. After all, there's a lot to be said for experience. Granted, it is wise for them to have some concerns about hiring those of us who are well past our prime in terms of health factors. Hell, I have concerns myself. I'll probably call it quits after another year simply because I don't view this as a healthy environment. Respiratory ailments are on the rise in China and for all their fine talk I still see little in the way of improvement in the environment over all. Of course the older we get the more susceptible and at risk we are in terms of medical problems that result from environmental degradation. In addition, I've seen little improvement in terms of hygiene either. One would have thought that after SARS there would have been a huge public awareness campaign regarding safe hygienic practices; unfortunately, that just hasn't happened. If swine flu does make it here, it will be a predictable nightmare.
Nevertheless, good luck, "young man." We've still got a few good years left in us, eh?
Theo
- 2009-05-08
Sadly, I believe this is true (but not absolutely sure). China does not want someone they believe might not be in top physical shape, and therefore will miss work (most contracts only allow for 3 sick days per year!!!) and need more medical/hospital care than younger teachers.
There's all sorts of government-dictated discrimination in China.
They claim they want qualified, experienced, and dedicated teachers, but in truth, they REALLY want younger, less experienced, and more maliable foreigners who don't challenge school "leaders," have academic standards and expectations, etc.
After teaching there for five years, I left China when I was 53 years old. Although I had high ratings (in writing, in Chinese) from students/clients in every school at which I taught, it was clear that as my age increased, employment options were shrinking PURELY due to age factor -- plus the fact that I asked far more probing questions (regarding the students, management, contract terms, housing, etc.) during interviews.
Unless one is married to a Chinese person, I think it's not good to be in China by the age of 60.
Turino
- 2009-05-08
If Foreign Affairs Office Personnel at public universities in China have told you that Z visas can no longer be obtained by FT's aged 60 or over,I'd expect that to be the case.
As all Chinese teachers in the public sector are compelled to retire by their sixtieth birthday at the very latest,it wouldn't be surprising for said regulation to have been extended to apply to FT's as well.But in the private sector of education in China the aforementioned regulation probably doesn't apply.
However,I feel we need more input.So,I shall be monitoring this thread with more than a passing interest within the next few days.
Since turning 60 I have encountered difficulties with universities applying for a work permit for me. They say that the government is not issuing work permits to those foreign teachers over 60. Does anybody know the actual truth of this?