Jayvin
- 2009-06-02
You are right and I'm sorry that I came across as a jackass.
eflfree
- 2009-06-02
Good. Glad to know you prefer the high road, and I won't mind traveling along it with you. Truth be known, I've seen a lot of anti-American sentiments expressed here that I have, until now, let pass. I guess your post and that of Breconian's caught me on a day when my patience was wearing thin. In addition, I've met up with some downright loathsome behavior by so called teachers from other English speaking countries, but I wouldn't consider it right to bring focus on those individuals who surely don't fairly represent their fellow countrymen. In short, there are bad apples in every barrel.
Watching
- 2009-06-02
" Besides, the standards of oral English that some Americans produce indicates that they are in urgent need of some remedial ESL training as well - even after making allowances for the deficiencies in American English".
Someone who is most definitely not a native speaker of English could only post the above. You should expound on the deficiencies in American English and demonstrate your command and knowledge of the subject. As it is, your comments fall short
Jayvin
- 2009-06-02
Actually, I am impressed with the work the teachers on the board are doing, and I admire them for it. Yourself included. A bit of argument is fine and to be expected. Getting personal is not. So let's not.
eflfree
- 2009-06-02
......save your holier-than-thou attitude.
Jayvin
Where did I state or imply that I think myself or any Americans better than anyone else? Clearly, you've missed the point all together. Try a reread and get back to me later.
I don't need my government or any other telling me how to behave while abroad. A little common sense goes a long way. However, I haven't denied that some Americans need more in the way of cultural sensitivity. I merely assert that it is unfair to single them out when it is obvious to me and others that we are not alone when it comes to inappropriate behavior.
As for your defensive attitude regarding your Southern roots, boo hoo, cry me a river. Fact is, I wasn't even taking that into consideration when using the expression, "a long way from Tipperary." But now that you mention it...............
Okay, you've been abroad a few times. I'm impressed. Perhaps, then, you'll be impressed if I tell you I've spent about twenty percent of my life living abroad. I seriously doubt it though. Maybe, like me, you realize that a person needn't have ever traveled or lived abroad to be possessed of an intuitive awareness of how one should conduct themselves when doing so.
Finally, it has been recently reported by certain media that the French are the worst travelers in terms of their attitudes. Does that mean I should paint all French people with the same brush? Let's get real and cease the sweeping generalities.
Jayvin
- 2009-06-02
By my way of thinking, to single out Americans and characterize only them as possessing such negative qualities suggests a very limited world view. But why am I surprised that you should do so? Memphis is a long way from Tipperary. Expand your horizons a bit more, Jarvin, before attempting to enlighten others with your currently not so deep insights.
Expand this:
FYI, Knowledgeable One: I have been abroad a few times- just not as a teacher. Every American on this board knows what I am talking about, and so do you, so save your holier-than-thou attitude. Our own government started about 3 years ago to issue suggestions for behavior along with passports for business travelers. Among them:
Think as big as you like but talk and act smaller. (In many countries, any form of boasting is considered very rude. Talking about wealth, power or status - corporate or personal - can create resentment.)
Listen at least as much as you talk. (By all means, talk about America and your life in our country. But also ask people you're visiting about themselves and their way of life.)
Save the lectures for your kids. (Whatever your subject of discussion, let it be a discussion not a lecture. Justified or not, the US is seen as imposing its will on the world.)
Think a little locally. (Try to find a few topics that are important in the local popular culture. Remember, most people in the world have little or no interest in the World Series or the Super Bowl. What we call "soccer" is football everywhere else. And it's the most popular sport on the planet.)
Slow down. (We talk fast, eat fast, move fast, live fast. Many cultures do not.)
Speak lower and slower. (A loud voice is often perceived as bragging. A fast talker can be seen as aggressive and threatening.)
Your religion is your religion and not necessarily theirs. (Religion is usually considered deeply personal, not a subject for public discussions.)
If you talk politics, talk - don't argue. (Steer clear of arguments about American politics, even if someone is attacking US politicians or policies. Agree to disagree.)
As for the back-handed insult about Southern roots, heed your own advice that you gave to Breconian
I would suggest a little more maturity in the way you view the various Englishes of the world, and a little more growing up in general wouldn't hurt either.
eflfree
- 2009-06-01
Having taught in several different provinces of China and having traveled to many others, I've seen my fair share of obnoxious and arrogant Americans; on the other hand, I've seen an equal share of obnoxious and arrogant Brits, Canadians, Aussies, South Africans and others.
By my way of thinking, to single out Americans and characterize only them as possessing such negative qualities suggests a very limited world view. But why am I surprised that you should do so? Memphis is a long way from Tipperary. Expand your horizons a bit more, Jarvin, before attempting to enlighten others with your currently not so deep insights.
eflfree
- 2009-06-01
"Besides, the standards of oral English that some Americans produce indicates that they are in urgent need of some remedial ESL training as well - even after making allowances for the deficiencies in American English."
Breconian
Please explain further what you mean by the deficiencies in American English. Try to keep it simple, though, will you? After all, being an American, you may have to spell it out for me.
Other than the above, by the way, your post is unworthy of a response in that it is based on an obvious prejudice coupled with ethnocentrism; moreover, it is quite apparent that your exposure to the EFL environment in China has been quite limited - as has been your exposure to American English. I would suggest a little more maturity in the way you view the various Englishes of the world, and a little more growing up in general wouldn't hurt either.
Jayvin
- 2009-05-31
Other English-speaking countries tend to supply teachers with a little more diplomacy and they usually last longer. Besides, the standards of oral English that some Americans produce indicates that they are in urgent need of some remedial ESL training as well - even after making allowances for the deficiencies in American English.
First off, I don't mean to talk down to anyone. I have no way of knowing the posters' location or familiarity with my region!
I see your point on the first sentence, the following one, I don't think so, unless you meant tourists and not teachers. A native speaker of American English may have speech that's easily recognizable from one of the several (6-9 depending on whose research your reference) major American dialects, but I don't see how it can possibly be an issue with a qualified teacher. Perhaps the difference between written/spoken English is wider here than the UK - I don't know, actually.
Jayvin
- 2009-05-31
Breconian, you are sadly oh-so-right about the attitude of Americans abroad. I come from a medium sized city outside of Memphis. I rarely ever meet people who have been abroad. If they have, then it's as a tourist for short stays in the host country. "It's Tuesday, so we must be in Germany" kind of thing. I wish I had a dollar (Euro?) every time I was personally embarrassed by Americans acting loud, proud, and obnoxious as foreign visitors.
IMHO, there still exists here an isolationist attitude of sorts and there are distinct sociological and geographical reasons why. As a percentage of the total population, relatively few Americans go abroad, compared to Europe, for example. For one, the US is a country which spans a continent. I can drive from Memphis to Canada or Mexico in about 13 hours. Imagine starting from Frankfurt and taking a 13 hour drive. How many nations could you visit?! The US is over twice the size of the EU, and inter-continental travel is too expensive. Also, I know very few Americans who can afford to go to Canada or Mexico, much less Asia, Africa, or Europe. Also, Americans also do not get nearly the vacation time that is so common in the EU. Ten days a year if you're lucky. All moving around the point that, if it were feasible, I really think more of us would go abroad more often and be more educated about other lands, ergo, not so loud, proud, and obnoxious as foreign visitors.
I don't know how many US natives are around the board -would be interesting to know.
Jayvin
- 2009-05-30
I didn't mean to insult anyone with qualifications. I'm just a bit jealous! Also going by what I've seen while dipping my toes in the subject of TEFL abroad and some pitiful things I've personally seen with those who teach EFL to Latinos here in my area of the US. Nonetheless, I appreciate the replies. I do want to get more qualifications but I think I'm too far from completing my BA and it's discouraging. If I could pack up and go tomorrow, I would. Even if that meant scraping by as an FT overseas.
Breconian
- 2009-05-30
Maybe the unenlightened Chinese will prefer Americans as foreign teachers, but those in the know are not so favourably disposed towards them. The reason being that, in my experience teaching in China, Americans in the classroom spend a lot of time comparing things in China to back home and telling them how things are great there. Chinese don't like hearing this at all!
Other English-speaking countries tend to supply teachers with a little more diplomacy and they usually last longer. Besides, the standards of oral English that some Americans produce indicates that they are in urgent need of some remedial ESL training as well - even after making allowances for the deficiencies in American English.
You are right about African Americans though
Turino
- 2009-05-30
Many Chinese employers prefer native speakers of English from the US.According to what I've been told,that is because the USA is the richest country in the world,as well as being one of the biggest.Hence the best one to do business with.In Taiwan the preference is also for Americans as FT's of English,probably mainly for the same reasons.
But when it comes to African Americans,they often find it dificult to get jobs because of discrimination against coloured people.You'll sometimes see job ads specifying that white native speakers of English are required.Of course,that's a bad thing!But usually when you don't,it still applies.
Jayvin
- 2009-05-30
Ha! A sofite I am not. I'm old and crusty. Well, not that old! There seems to be this double-standard in the TEFL field in regard to qualifications. Such that you are second-rate if you're American. And yet everywhere I look, Americans are heavily recruited. Again, not enough EU citizens to fill the vacancies, so make do and get an American instead. CELTA was created to give a standard to the TEFL industry and make it less difficult for native speakers to acquire teaching jobs - yet I have my doubts about the CELTA program. My ignorance about the field, perhaps? But at least I will have a lot of time to learn more before I plan to go abroad.
Sure, if you have a degree in ANY subject, you are more likely to get employed, and of course that makes sense - to a point. I see a lot of TESL marketing to people with undergraduate degrees that have nothing to do with teaching. Is that good for the learners? Perhaps it will be some times and other times not. I know a great many educated people who don't know what I know about teaching and teaching languages in particular - they don't have any experience at all on the business end of a classroom and I seriously doubt that a 4 week CELTA course will give them much more than a nice piece of paper to help them get jobs and help the school sponsoring them collect fees, if their heart is not in teaching. Nothing against CELTA - I will probably just shut up and get one as well.
Turino
- 2009-05-30
Me too.Many postings on this board are very entertaining in one way or another.It's the best teachers' forum on the net,without a doubt!A forum for man,not softies,as another poster has already commented.
Jayvin
- 2009-05-29
No, I was not serious -just overdid the sarcasm. But do much enjoy the postings here.
Turino
- 2009-05-29
In addition, Europe is no slouch when it comes to the exploitation of green teachers. They seem to dislike admitting it, but there are not enough EU citizens to fill all of the posts, above board or otherwise. Awww. Too bad. I guess some second-string Americans willing to live below the poverty level will have to do for them all.
Second-string American FT's of English living below the poverty level in China and in Europe?You can't be serious.
Maybe there are some in Europe,but surely very very few,if any,in China!
Jayvin
- 2009-05-29
I remember some time ago asking a FAO friend why she had a low salary, her answer was straight and blunt, "most of the foreigners in China are the bottom of the barrel, they can't find work in higher requirement countries so they have very little choice."
This was a very interesting and informative thread for me, especially the quote above, as I am considering teaching abroad. I don't know if I should feel grateful or insulted. I do not qualify to teach English at an American university, much less a Chinese or EU university, nor do I necessarily wish to. The American ESL teachers with whom I have made contact since seriously investigating TEFL seem like me - multilingual, intelligent, sincere, and have at least some college in addition to a CELTA or TEFL certification. They do not, however, go abroad to teach for the attractive salary. The middlekingdomlife.com site was an eye-opener, and clearly explains why there are so many unqualified teachers in China.
In addition, Europe is no slouch when it comes to the exploitation of green teachers. They seem to dislike admitting it, but there are not enough EU citizens to fill all of the posts, above board or otherwise. Awww. Too bad. I guess some second-string Americans willing to live below the poverty level will have to do for them all.
Turino
- 2009-05-24
My main point is that FT's in China are often well-paid for the actual work they do in some areas of EFL here.So they can have a good standard of living by working virtually part-time if they choose to do so.This is contrary to your friend's opinion.In my last post,I explained why.
As I consider teaching to be mentally tiring,I am happy to have a job here that requires little mental effort on my part.Nothing wrong with that.Why is it that people like you expect all teachers to love their jobs?A job's a job.The results of a recent survey in the UK showed that more than 70% of employees disliked their jobs.
As for 'bottom of the barrel' in terms of paper qualifications,which seems to be what your friend means,I'd say that your friend is an elitist.Of course,the actual situation is related to supply and demand,meaning that if China were more popular as a destination for EFL teachers,employers could afford to me more selective.But they can't.So many FT's with average or below average paper qualifications can get jobs teaching here,though I'd reckon most of them only at private kindergartens and training centres,the bottom end of the EFL market.
wordperfect
- 2009-05-24
Date: Friday, 22 May 2009, 11:56 pm
In Response To: Re: Most schools are "illegal" (Turino)
I am not really quite sure what your point is.
Are you saying that you are a lazy teacher who just does the bare minumum to get a decent standard of living with free accommodation and other perks?
It seems you are actually agreeing with me.
Or did you not understand or read my post thoroughly?
Turino
- 2009-05-24
I remember some time ago asking a FAO friend why she had a low salary, her answer was straight and blunt, "most of the foreigners in China are the bottom of the barrel, they can't find work in higher requirement countries so they have very little choice."
What you have posted above is similar to the kind of crap you can hear on the BBCWS and the VOA from time to time.They talk about the number of poor people in the world earning less than a dollar a day.That statement by itself is not an indicator of poverty or otherwise.The local cost of living in dollar terms has to be taken into account too.So,when your FAO friend talks about her low salary,I know she doesn't know what she's on about.FT's in China usually earn at least beween 3/2 and 2 times the salary of their Chinese colleagues.And Chinese teachers are very well-paid compared to factory hands and keyboard operators,etc.
Teaching in China can be a sinecure.Short working hours,little or no pressure at work,free accommodation and other financial perks make it a good number.In developed countries,though,as a teacher you would be working much longer hours under pressure for a much higher wage.But the high cost of living there and having to rent a house would make your affordable lifestyle a very average one.
If,as you claim,'most of the foreigners teaching here are bottom of the barrel',I'd say they've landed lucky here despite their low status,ie they can 'earn' relatively good pay for doing very little.That's why in the EFL world,many EFL teachers prefer teaching in China to doing so in other Asian countries or indeed in the West.In China one can teach virtually part-time for a reasonably high standard of living if one avoids training centers,private schools and international schools,sth I've been doing here for fifteen years.
MOVED FROM THE SCAM ALERTS BOARD
Date: Friday, 22 May 2009, 5:30 pm
In Response To: Re: Look out for Angel Holy - an agent in Hubei. Another crook: Nemo eslabroad@yahoo.cn (Silverboy)
I don't often post or comment much on BBS, but just recently I was talking with SAFEA which used to be SBFE, the China Gvt body that regulates foreign English teachers.
I should also add a disclaimer I guess, that I have a business in China and often move in some higher official circles.
One of the topics being discussed was the legality [or otherwise] of Native English Teachers in China.
It gave rise to questions re the legality of schools, it came as no surprise to hear that most of the kindergartens and "Training Centers" in China are illegal, in that not only do they not have permssion to employ foreign teachers, but neither are they registred as a teaching institute.
But what was surprising was the directors estimate that over 70% of the PUBLIC schools, such as primary, middle, high and universities in China are NOT sanctioned to employ foreigners.
I just assumed that as they were State schools they all did, maybe like many of you reading.
So to offfer a suggestion why some universites etc use recruiters.
Probably you know that "strictly" speaking to work in China as an ELT requires a BA, a recognised CELTA or teaching certificate, 2 years out of China teaching experience, and be a National of the 5 main English speaking countries, anything less is illegal.
Of course we know that a huge % of ELT's do not meet these requirements and can be hired at lower rates which makes them economically attractive even if not academically.
After all, in China, the aim is to make money, not teach English.
Using a recruiter helps maybe to "dodge" respnsibility for hiring non legal teachers, if things go wrong or they get audidted they can blame the recruiter who is, as we all know, going to disappear when things get too hot.
I also know a few cases where the ELT is not technically "hired" by the uni, [although she thinks she is] but is in fact subbed out by the recruiter for a monthly cut of the ELT's salary.
This again covers the school, technically they have NOT "hired" the teacher so are within the law.
As for English Corners [a joke] and other "extra duties" that are slipt in, well, they know that you are not going to complain as chances are you are not legal anyway.
I have actually had Chinese FOA and HOD's tell me this.
To digress, the term LAOSHI in China is, as you know, one of respect, and it irks many Chinese to have to call some totally unqualified, rude, arrogant foreigner Laoshi when in reality they look down on him. Of course they won't say it to your face but find other ways to "put you in your place."
Just quickly, another aspect, salary. I came here in 2000 and was paid 4k at a "legal" university, I see today the salaries have not changed despite the COL increase in China.
I remember some time ago asking a FAO friend why she had a low salary, her answer was straight and blunt, "most of the foreigners in China are the bottom of the barrel, they can't find work in higher requirement countries so they have very little choice."
At the time I disagreed but today, having worked "the other side" for a long time I am more and more inclined to thing she might have been right.
Sad.