Anon
- 2010-05-20
I think the heart of the matter lies in whether or not any deception took place.
Setting the teacher's actual abilities aside, did they lie and say they had a degree when in fact they do not?
If they lied, it's still fraud, no matter what their quality of teaching is.
And if the school says they want a teacher with a degree, then they should get a teacher with a degree. If they miss out on a really good teacher that doesn't have a degree, then it's their loss.
I don't think the issue has anything to do with comparing teachers with degrees to teachers without degrees, it just seems it has to do with the morality of deceiving a school.
Harikiri
- 2010-05-20
Not everyone teaching here needs or desires the better jobs!So, if a uni in China would pay 5500 RMB to you as a Master degree holder (instead of 4500 RMB to a Bachelor degree holder) for basically the same job, would you insist to receive 4500 RMB only? Hard to believe......
That's not what I meant, and you know it. Stop doing the twist!
There is no twist, It's just challenging you on the basis of your own input.
The fact is that neither the world nor a country like China owes anyone an ESL teaching job - not anyone, even those who are unemployed at home. If, for example, unemployment is the only reason why they come to China, then I think they are most likely the wrong teachers in the wrong place. The only formal criterion whether someone should be given a job in teaching ESL is qualification and previous performance alone. That also includes some formal proof of a degree as this would make sure that so-called "professional" native teachers of ESL do NOT teach their students wrong things like "it's" and "its", "synonym" and "synonymous" mistakes in their written and spoken English.
The linguistic standards a native ESL teacher is expected to teach would be that of an average educated middle class-based native English speaker, and a having a degree and by that being used to such more educated levels of speech and writing definitely helps while holding fake degrees, for example, does definitely not.
Denying the usefulness of a degree in ESL is almost as tragic as using fake degree for the sake of better work and higher pay. The mindset behind such an attitude firstly indicates that those with such an opinion assume a right to be given an ESL job with or without any due qualification, and it also indicates that many of those highly overestimate themselves in their capabilities and are too blind to see their own limits and shortcomings.
Studying a good textbook sometimes can help a lot!
And to assert such a nonsense that a poorly organised education system like the one in China merits poorly trained foreign teachers in which pretend teachers with a fake degree would not matter at all also indicates that there those less well educated people who falsely think they have a right to have this job and that it is owed to them. In brief, it's wrong and highly unprofessional, and most of those foreigners in China and anywhere else spreading such a nonsense are the kind of grovelling weasels who are the first to kiss a certain backside of their shabby (or should we call it "crappy") employers as they most likely have no other place to go.
Grin
- 2010-05-19
Not everyone teaching here needs or desires the better jobs!
So, if a uni in China would pay 5500 RMB to you as a Master degree holder (instead of 4500 RMB to a Bachelor degree holder) for basically the same job, would you insist to receive 4500 RMB only? Hard to believe......
That's not what I meant, and you know it. Stop doing the twist!
Harikiri
- 2010-05-19
Not everyone teaching here needs or desires the better jobs!
So, if a uni in China would pay 5500 RMB to you as a Master degree holder (instead of 4500 RMB to a Bachelor degree holder) for basically the same job, would you insist to receive 4500 RMB only?
Hard to believe......
Grin
- 2010-05-19
But for the better jobs, there are formal degree requirements. So, what will you do when looking for a better job in case you do not meet that requirement?
Take a lesser job, still miles better than working an even lesser job back home! Better does not necessarily mean the best for everyone from abroad. I'd have thought that would've been obvious, but maybe I have been attributing too much streetwisedness to Westerners who have come here.
IMO, a degree of common sense is lacking sometimes in some foreigners who come to China, and bear in mind that not all foreigners come here to be born-again capitalists who couldn't realise their high-flying ambitions back home, and wanna realize them here. Some have money saved up back home, which they can use to supplement their mediocre salaries if they wanna mix in high circles. Not everyone teaching here needs or desires the better jobs!
Fake
- 2010-05-18
I want to disagree with Turnoi in regard to degrees: If an FT is teaching at a university in China without a degree, or with a fake degree, but he is doing a great job then how is that fraud or deception?
If someone uses a fake degree, is this fraud or deception or not?
I think you know the answer......
Non-degreed degree holder
- 2010-05-18
If an FT is teaching at a university in China without a degree, or with a fake degree, but he is doing a great job then how is that fraud or deception? If someone delivers a quality product and is responsible then no harm is done. An incompetent degree holder will obviously cause more harm then a competent non-degree holding teacher!
So, do you seriously suggest that using fake degrees is an appropriate way to get a better job and a higher salary?
Why not being honest and tell the school you have no degree but you are a great teacher?
If they employ you then, it's OK and entirely their problem, and if a degree is really useless as some suggest, they would employ you anyway if that claim was really true. Why then the need to use fake degrees in order to deceive and cheat the school?
Your input is somewhat confusing and contradictory, I find.
The Mortal
- 2010-05-18
An incompetent degree holder will obviously cause more harm then a competent non-degree holding teacher!
My impression well is that the picture of incompetent degree holders vs. that of competent non-degree holders is something you may need to satisfy your own ego.
Why? I think you will know the answer.... This part of your input is only partly true, I think you know that. Please be careful not to generalise....
A degree is certainly not a sign of competence when you talk about English teaching!
As far as China is concerned, that may even be true to a large extent. But for the better jobs, there are formal degree requirements. So, what will you do when looking for a better job in case you do not meet that requirement?
Bannerman
- 2010-05-18
I want to disagree with Turnoi in regard to degrees: If an FT is teaching at a university in China without a degree, or with a fake degree, but he is doing a great job then how is that fraud or deception? If someone delivers a quality product and is responsible then no harm is done. An incompetent degree holder will obviously cause more harm then a competent non-degree holding teacher!
I want to degree with you, puzzlemaster. Good you've got your head screwed on the right way!
I have been following this debate about degrees here. It is really a lot of nonsense. In China the degree issue is a red herring and not even worth talking about. I do not care if someone is teaching in China with a degree or without a degree. It makes no difference. At some universities in China there are FT's with a degree who can teach well, and also others without a degree who are great at teaching. There are many people in China wih a degree who are terrible teachers.
I want to disagree with Turnoi in regard to degrees: If an FT is teaching at a university in China without a degree, or with a fake degree, but he is doing a great job then how is that fraud or deception? If someone delivers a quality product and is responsible then no harm is done. An incompetent degree holder will obviously cause more harm then a competent non-degree holding teacher!
A degree is certainly not a sign of competence when you talk about English teaching!