Since coming on to this board you have been making statements which basically try to tell us that we all should think uniformly and in one mindset towards certain situations.

No, I recommend that people choose their battles, not act like robots. That I say how people should likely react to "one" situation, such as kids being sold cell phones by a school, yes I admit that I said what I thought should be someones response to that. I gave an opinion though, nad made it clear you can do what you like. This is wrong?

That is we should just look at ourselves as "guests"

We should, however you seem to see this as a bad thing. You seem to see the term guest as applying a subservient, second class citizen nature. This is not my meaning. However, if you think that we will have the same standing as a Chinese person, I say good luck, it's not a realistic thought though. I am talking about being a realist, though I don't always agree with reality. You perhaps think that, because we live here and work here that we should have all the same rights and privileges as the Chinese. I say we have more, as I am never bothered, I'm allowed to do my own thing, and pretty much have total freedom for all intents and purposes. Honestly what are you complaining about? Being spied upon? That I don't agree with, and if it happens, indeed do something. I was speaking of children being spied upon, how many times must I say this. Are you blind that you can not read my words? Or do you simply like being righteous and indignant, hence you ignore things that will destroy that high feeling you get when being so?

or that we should just mind our own business because everything that's Chinese and all of her problems will seemingly work themselves out.

I mind my own business, and there is a reason why this term is so popular and widely used you know. I am happy minding my own business in most cases. I come on here to not do so I suppose, and give advice, which is ok I think. You may feel free to "not" mind your own business if that's what makes you happy. I don't advocate so much minding ones own business as I do weighing the consequences and deciding whether or not there is more to be gained, and if it is worth it to do so or not. Why attack me for such a stand? Logic, reason, rationale, are these your enemies? You clearly are not understanding things I have said. Read, don't react so much, you have started trouble with a person, me, that did not need to be started, as we are not on opposing sides. You would have seen this if you had not been caught up in the hive mind, mob mentality of your leader.

Based on these responses you cannot expect people to just reply to you in the same civilized manner that you expect.

Indeed I can, and indeed they should. If they do not I will respond, though not completely in kind. Too many people on here become far too personal, one in particular who claims to be an academic and a holy man, but talks like neither. His standing and claims to such I would question, and rightly so. To follow that example is like following none at all. To follow such a person is to follow blindly indeed.

Everyone has an opinion on this and for you to argue for the sake of what they have said back to you just shows a jaded mindset on your part.

I do not argue with others, I debate, others argue, there is a difference. Some people are useless to try and debate with, as all the can do is argue, and get far too personal. There are differing levels and degrees, and some stoop too low here, hence they will be ignored now. I have made the mistake of indulging some too much. You should try admitting when you make mistakes, it is a good trait, not a bad one. As for arguing for the sake of arguing, I agree, foolish, you should heed your own council first and foremost.

Look at the posts on this website related to the discussion board. There are over 15,000 threads. If you take a look at some of the earliest ones to some of the later ones you'll see how there are some people who have been posting for a very long time. Being that that is a fact you can understand why some people might take some of the things that you have said (even if that's not what you meant) as just another defense of the crappy, corrupt world of ESL China.

I can see that people are primed to do so because they talk within a very polarized environment, where there is very little dissent. This place is a haven for those who have been screwed over by the ESL world. I get it, as I have been screwed over myself. I don't defend such places as ESL schools, I merely advocate reason when considering ones actions and their approach to a problem. Since when was logic and reason ones enemy? Only when these things are used poorly are they your enemy. I also advocate simple common sense, thinking of consequences, and being prudent. Some here advocate the opposite even if it will bring harm to the person they are speaking to. You can see the difference between my approach and such a person. I don't think that there is "always" a single absolute response. One has to avoid an absolutist mindset, and approach things in a more balanced way. There are times when one should go all out and do what is required, and times to also do what is required, sometimes that being nothing. You can't always be in high gear and in fight mode, this is not a wise or prudent way to live ones life. Might feel good at the time, but you may end up exiled to an African country at the ass back of nowhere with that kind of mindset.

Some of your posts especially towards select people carry a strong, judgemental attitude about who they are. If you expect people to just take you seriously you obviously don't understand human emotions. Mud slinging isn't necessarily just labeling someone as stupid or as a spy. It also includes baseless accusations of a person's character as being a certain way based on what they've said. Turnoi, Silverboy, and some others have been dealing with some jerks on this board for a long time now. So you can imagine how weary they must feel when they see you defend a school for possibly spying on its students.

Perhaps they do, and perhaps not, depends on the exact post you speak of. Thanks for telling me I don't understand human emotions, however it's comments of this nature that you should try to avoid, as they are meant more to try and insult someone in a personal way than to speak to any knowledge you actually have, now that is childish. I know where you learned such behavior from, but it is not appropriate. You speak of baseless accutations, do you perhaps mean accusations like the ones you just threw at me in the above paragraph?

I see a lot of one upsmanship trying to going on here, with many posts simply being ignored, and then someone like yourself firing off what they think is a clever response to try and get someone elses goat. Foolish. You say Turnoi and Silverboy have been dealing with a lot of jerks? Please, they are not the second coming, and while helpful, they can just as often do harm as good with their extreme approach to things. Do they help people, yes, but not as much as they would think. I think the "jerks" you speak of might at times be the very people you so blindly defend. Open your eyes a bit more. Defend a school for spying on students? You see only what you want to see.

We don't need anyone telling us how to talk to people. Saying that a person has no credibility because of an opinion they may have given shows you haven't actually thought out and considered what we may have said.

I never said any such thing, that is your perception. Please show me where I used these exact words.

If you really believe we can do better you wouldn't have pointed it out in the way that you have.

Still trying to figure this one out. What does what I believe about what you can or can not do, as if you would know the answer to that, have to do with any of this?

Picking on other people's semantics and drawing baseless conclusions that we are biased people will only make us see you as the unthoughtful individual that you are.

My my, for someone who is against character attacks on others, as you condemned me for supposedly doing such, you do a lot of it. To do what you condemn, and to do it in the same thread, now that's the kind of thing that takes away from ones credibility. Perhaps what I just did, calling into question your credibility because of what you just did, perhaps that's the questioning of someones credibility that you spoke of. It likely makes you angry, as I pointed at a faux pa on your part, and a major one. I'd not worry though, you and your compatriots yes man each other to the point where you don't actually care about credibility, or it would maybe be more accurate to say it never becomes and issue, or you will never question each other in such things. As for picking on other people, I suppose what they say about bullies is true, they can dish it out but they can not take it.

Unthoughtful? I would say someone who calls someone out for attacking someone elses character, and then does the same themselves in the same thread, is either very unthoughtful, or believes they are bullet proof, and just doesn't give a damn what they post, or how it sounds. In either case, how much credibility should such a person be given? You and your compatriots have failed to address 90 percent of the things I have said, while I address almost everything you say, point blank, and refute, or explain myself in accordance with your words. All you and others do is react in anger, and you don't respond, you react. Who sounds as if they are more credible? If you are so concerned with being credible, I'd suggest putting more thought into what you say, not contradicting yourself. Id suggest not caring more about clever responses that are more quips than anything else. You of course will not address the fact that you did exactly what you said I should not do, you will respond simply by attacking my character, which you said should not be done. LOL.

You made a choice to post on this board, so you can expect disagreements.

As should you, as should you. Again a foolish self contradiction.

Especially considering the types of conclusions that you draw since many of them are totally baseless and without foundation.

Please share with me exactly what conclusions I have come to, specifically, and how they are without foundation? This you will not do of course, because then you could be disagreed with. Yes again you self contradict, as only someone who can't handle disagreements would fail to do so, or someone who doesn't know how to debate. Either way your post itself questions your credibility, I don't. Good bye.

Please show me where I have slung mud. Maybe what you consider slinging mud is really just a wrong perception on your part of my words. Honestly, if you perceive mt words as slinging mud, then you would have to perceive other, long timer posters, as they call themselves, of the same thing. Or is this kind of accusation only made against those who you perceive as being against you. I wonder.

I happen to know who the Dragonized poster is and I know enough of that poster's background to say that that poster has a well-founded knowledge and personal experience of the topics related to. I won't tell you more for obvious reasons... Again my advice to "tone down" a bit!

I happen to know about 'Dragonized' what you know too, Turnoi. Furthermore, I happen to agree with his comments re China's ills and how one should react to them while immersed in the country's complex culture. I don't think said poster deserves the strong criticism levied against him by 'Sanguine'. Toning it down in the future wouldn't be inappropriate, in my view, too!