Re: Not all! - ESL discussion

to Jon on his

Their management is Chinese for the Chinese side of things, they also have western management on various levels.

With all due respect to your point of view, their western management is usually quite incapable or out of the loop, when it comes to some serious decisions, so why do you bother pointing that out? Don't you know that? Most of the experienced EF staff knows that, or ignores that when it's convenient. Having said that, I do not mean you ignore that. Maybe, you haven't been in EF long enough, have you?

Cheers and beers to the fine EF discussion

Re: Warning: EF English First in China - ESL discussion

I just returned from an EF job in Beijing one week ago (August 30, 2008). I'm still traumatized but the pain is gradually subsiding.... There were 8 teachers in three schools when I arrived 4 1/2 months ago. At least 4 have left before the end of their year-long contracts, three of us before 5 months, and yet another told me as I was waiting for my flight home that he had resigned. I know that others are already looking for other schools in China because they can't stand EF, though there are EF freaks, like the DoSes, who believe EF is the best TEFL employer in the world. I know from experience that they are not. The level of bitterness in some resigning teachers says a lot about EF. EF is abusive in the extreme. I taught English in Japan for three years and never had such horrible experiences in the workplace, with policies, or even in the classroom. My state in Japan had almost 100 teachers and only 1 left before the year was up, due to health reasons. 1% versus 50%. That should tell you something about EF. I was pushed by a students and the CR, who acts as the course liaison between teachers and parents told the kid not to worry about it. That is not an isolated problem. The CRs get bonuses for student retention so it's not in their interest to back up teachers.

EF sells itself to teachers as the premier school with the best salary and best work environment in China. Bunk and rot. The foreign DoS of my school told the teachers that he expected us to never take the 11 sick days granted by EF because he believes if you're well enough to call in sick you're well enough to work. He was new but he wasn't kidding. I got sick when I first arrived in Beijing and his predecessor hounded me to come into work and tried to fire me when I couldn't. EF cares about money period. They will throw you under a bus if it helps them save money. Teachers are never in the right in a dispute. Management is the worst I've seen in twenty years of working and it's all designed to protect EF. Teachers are expected to work at least 45 hour workweeks and informally the DoS might cut you some slack but you cannot count on or trust EF. I tried to talk to the DoS about the problems I had at the school. He told me I should have researched EF better on the internet, so he made everything my fault. I had looked at this site before leaving for China but I didn't see this discussion. I decided to post to spare anyone my trauma. After I resigned, teachers came forward with leads to other schools with more money for half (!) the hours EF demands! But I was so fed up I left China altogether. I was getting 10,000 RMB per month salary but I strongly encouraged by my school to live nearby, in a very expensive area with rent of 4000 RMB a month. Other than that, I would have had to move over an hour away by bus, subway, subway and then again bus to the 'training center', EF's names for it's schools. After I resigned, I found other teachers who were planning to resign as well found jobs with salaries of 13,000 RMB per month with about 26 hours of work time a week.

BTW, don't do as some have suggested and use EF to get the work visa. Even though they knew I had a plane ticket and was genuinely leaving China, they cancelled my Foreign Expert's certificate and escorted me to the visa office to cancel my work visa under the threat that I would not be able to leave China until I did so, that I would be stopped at the airport and made to turn around and go back to cancel the visa and fined 4000 RMB by the government. I had a multi-entry visa so the only way the government would know that I wasn't planning to return would be if someone informed them. I pointed that out to my DoS who replied that unless I cancelled my visa I would be stopped at the airport and fined. What does that sound like to you? So I cancelled my visa and had to pay 940 RMB, over $100 USD, for a three day tourist visa that limited me to the environs of Beijing. That's suspicious because the ordinary tourist visa last 30 days. An EF employee told me the company must have requested it although the DoS blamed it on the Olympics. What did it matter to the government if I remained in China for 30 days like any there tourist? I don't buy it al all. And then they took back the flight allowance they had paid me out of my last paycheck, among other very unexpected charges! So EF is not a good guy or good deal to get to China and then change like someone suggested, not that I had any intention of that!

BTW, EF Kids Schools Beijing tries to say they are experiencing growing pains because they are new ( opened since late 2007 and because they are expanding so fast - up to four schools and more in the works to open soon) and the disorganization and demanding work schedule is not their usual way of being. After reading the other post here, I'm even less inclined to believe it, and I didn't really believe it after teaching and training in three of their four current schools. The problems are systemic and corporate and are not limited to particular schools. The corporate attitude is that EF comes first and it seems to me that they consider teachers the enemy. This is their second try in the Beijing market and so far it's crappy for teachers. Of course, with EF it's always the teachers' fault. I could tell sad tales but Im not that sort of person and also the feelings are to fresh to recount the stories.

EF Fuzhou

I realise that this post is long after the fact. However, I feel the need to clear up a few issues about EF Fuzhou.
Firstly, the school is now under new ownership, the franchise having been sold out by Sunshine, the original investors.
We are now in new premises, with new management and I hold the post of Director of Studies there. I have 7 years experience of teaching and managing in China and my first and overriding priority is for the quality of teaching we offer our students. Our staff are all TESOL or CELTA qualified and highly motivated and consequentially, the school has now altered radically as a workplace and place to study, with a serious and professional attitude and a clear and simple philosophy - take your contract and responsibilities seriously and have some pride in your work.
In this way, the school has changed drastically and I'm sure all the staff here would agree that it is now restored to it's rightful position as a caring and high quality school.

Re: EF China, Shenzhen - Teachers Discussion

Thanks for the honest description of your experience in China. I was wondering if you or anyone has heard of online teaching in China for a jason wang--how does one know if it's legitimate? My concern is that they pay you through paypal or your bank card. This sounds suspicious, but then again--how else would they pay you? Thank you to anyone who responds.

EF China, Shenzhen - Teachers Discussion

Not all EF schools in China are bad. I agree that this group of people sound horrible. I also agree that EF corporate couldn't care less about how their franchisees operate. However, EF is just like any other school in China - be careful and don't assume anything, and if it looks bad leave.

Regarding EF Shenzhen, there are 2 franchisees. 1 has 1 school, the other has 5. I've worked for the larger company for 1 year, and have signed on for a second year. Here's my summary: You'll be treated fairly and openly. You'll be paid in full and on time (they were 1 day late once, as far as I know). If you give the notice required to terminate your contract early, you'll be paid everything you're owed. My experience was positive, especially regarding pay. I cancelled my contract after 10 months (later I signed on again) and although they were not obligated to give me any of my return airfare, they actually covered a substantial part of it as a thank you for doing a good job. I'll admit, things are not planned and implemented with the same degree of efficiency as in the West (that's China in general) but I would recommend this school. One caveat: the school director (always a westerner) makes or breaks the working environment. However, if you're a good teacher/employee and you don't like your school manager, the general manager Sophia Gu will try to move you to another school. Email me if you have a question.

> DO NOT JOIN ANY EF SCHOOL IN CHINA!
> First I was presented and I signed an non-standard non-EF Contract
> (didn't know for it was my first job with them). Later the EF Fuzhou
> school asked me to open their "clone" of thier existing EF
> Fuzhou and I had to work at both schools after the opening. Too bad
> that I got paid less than my Contract, because the CM Daniel said
> that they did not have enough money.
> Then I joined EF Huizhou(as a DOS) hoping for better.
> After joing them, four months later the same "clone" story
> and I was asked to clone and open their non-EF center in Huyian near
> (20 miles) Huizhou. Knowing that if I did not do it I would have to
> leave, I did what I was asked (you can judge me now).
> After that we (and I) experienced great "conflicts of
> interest" as well as employers attempts of dishonesty, not
> speaking of the teachers that moved up and down.
> When a teacher presented me with a Letter of Resignation and asked to
> be reliefed of her job duties instantly, the employer Lucy Li asked
> me to demand 40,000 RMB from the teacher for breaking her Contract
> (My position? Ohh god!).
> Then my flight reimbursment was a bit late and unexplained what was
> wrong "So I inquired" and got verbally DISMISSED by the
> "big boy" husband of Lucy Li my boss (Manager-Investor). (I
> stayed)
> But then and finally I got dismissed OFFICIALLY, even though without
> any WARNING or evaluation or discussion (hell I am China). I guess I
> knew too much and was inconvenient to the EF franchisee EF Huizhou.
> The franchisers did not get involved and did not have any interest in
> getting involved in their employees Wrongful Dismissal, since they do
> what their franchisees tell them in China. Even my story of having to
> cheat the franchisers with my false Director of Studies Monthly
> Reports did not raise much attention in the Head Office. (My employer
> required me to file lower sales reports due to the ROYALTY FEES ....
> Ha ha ha).
> The people who run the EF English First in China are ONLY Chinese and
> they are interested in MONEY only. Standards Non-standards it does
> not matter to them, so DO NOT JOIN ANY EF ENGLISH FIRST IN CHINA.

To Rain: Re: EF - ESL discussion

Hmmmmmmmm. I can't really tell if you are defending EF or not. Also - and please don't consider this a personal attack - your apparent lack of command of the English language suggests to me that you are not an ESL teacher. However, if you are, please work on your sentence structure, spelling and punctuation before it rubs off on your unsuspecting students.

Now, in regards to teaching one system or the other. Qualified teachers should be given the flexibility to teach as they know how to teach. Further, they should have the option of empowering their students to recognize that English, as an international language, comes in all flavors. Personally, I wouldn't care to identify one as superior to another. I mean let's go with a neopolitan approach. (Actually, I like chocolate the best, but I'll still eat the strawberry and vanilla.)And, just so you'll know, I'm an American teacher teaching for a Singapore based school that uses a British text. However, I deviate from the text as often as I want, and I have the option of developing my own lesson plans and changing the curriculum anytime I feel like it. It's all about adapting to the needs of your students.

About their pay scale: Yep, pay is similar to other schools, but few schools expect you to put in the amount of hours that EF expects. That's why they love naive teachers fresh out of school.

Finally, you're right about other private schools putting financial gain as a priority over the advancement of their students. However, that doesn't justify it. EF should wake up and smell the coffee.
Or not. I don't really care, to tell the truth. But I do care about my fellow teachers.

The EF corruption - ESL discussion

As with most corporations there is corruption on some level or another. When you compare school teachers in the United States to us teaching in China, there is one big difference. The teachers have more power because they are members of a VERY strong and large teachers union, that is something we have not quite developed yet in China.

Now, as far as EF goes, they are not worth it.
Here is why:

1. They are bias, they are set on the British system, that is why they often ask their teacher's to have a Cambridge Certificate (CELTA)

2. They pay too low for more work. There benifits are not so good, many other Chinese companies offer a better deal.

3. The are corporate, meaning they expect you to follow their orders and do things their way, no personal teaching creativity, "Do it the EF way!"

4. They are in the business to make money, not really to teach, profits come first, so the teachers at the "bottom" of the ladder will get a lousy contract compared to if they worked for somone else in China.

If there are any good things about EF, it is that they are legally licensed in China so they can get you a working visa and permits without problems. So get them to do your visa, then runaway to another school that pays more money.....lol

To Gibson Re: EF English First - ESL discussion

Thanks for the info Gibson. I have had doubts about EF English First since I first contacted them in the States a few years back. They expect a lot of hours from their teachers for a salary that is less than adequate for the work. Their promises of rising up the corporate ladder seems to be the biggest lure for the unsuspecting. The fact that the managers in China are Chinese adds a new dimension to an already iffy situation. If you've seen some of my other postings here, you know that I'm not much of a proponent of the corporate profit takers and their underhanded activities. Anyway, it's great that you're giving the warning. There are still a lot of newly certified teachers that would benefit greatly from such information if we could just get them to read the postings. Therein lies the problem. Lately, I've been thinking that it would be a good idea to get such information into the hands of the administrators of TESOL schools in the States. What do you think?