Dragonized
- 2012-03-02
In China, I've come upon many foreign teachers who behave like the Chinese without having to sell out their beliefs. That is because their morals weren't top drawer when they arrived here.
Yes! That is a statement that is absolutely on the money.
Brenda
- 2012-03-01
Selling out your beliefs is a sure fire way to go insane.
In China, I've come upon many foreign teachers who behave like the Chinese without having to sell out their beliefs. That is because their morals weren't top drawer when they arrived here. There is no way THEY will ever go insane during their working lives here!
Magister
- 2012-03-01
save your sanity - go with the flow, not against it.
Selling out your beliefs is a sure fire way to go insane. What would be the point of getting up in the morning?
San Migs
- 2012-03-01
If you're not an entertainer, you'll be on your way when your contract's up. Given the above scenario, what's the point in trying to be a model teacher? Pretend to do the job well, and shut up about injustices
That sounds about right.
Worst case, if you're not an entertainer kiss renewal of contract bye-bye.
Dragonized
- 2012-03-01
It's people like you and Steven who make things harder for the rest of us. If you can't even stick up for yourself, why would anybody trust anything that you say? You know modern chinese culture is amoral, yet you enable it. That makes you and "Steven" anti-moral. So newbies should follow the advice of people like you? Hahaha...
Dragonized
- 2012-03-01
It's people like "Steven", "Martin", and others who claim to be old hands and "got used" to chinese society that makes life more difficult for the rest of us who actually care about preserving integrity in our own careers if we choose to have one in China. The fact that more and more foreigners are coming to China will only ensure that the dishonest people will have more of a chance to spread lies as there will be more newer people to fool. The work of telling others the truth about China is far from finished. If anyone has a bad experience or knows about the cheating of companies, SPEAK OUT! Change comes slowly, but it can surely come at least for the expats if everyone stood up for themselves.
Dragonized
- 2012-03-01
The local Chinese need to realize that treating expats like how they treat each other simply WILL NOT FLY. It's a joke how so many chinese people now believe that they are a superpower and they can dictate their terms to others. You can't do anything in the name of virtue if you don't possess any, period.
Dragonized
- 2012-03-01
If you feel vulnerable in the beginning due to inexperience, then it is understandable. We all have to learn, sometimes the hard way. But by now there would have been thousands if not tens of thousands of people who have sounded off on the bad state of ESL business in china. If the chinese cannot help the expats and only give the "meibanfa" statement, then it's up to us to warn others away from bad working conditions. Being responsible and being irresponsible is the difference between the weasels and normal folk.
foxy
- 2012-03-01
but people who actually care about their career should not hesitate to stand up for it and to do the best to put themselves in the position they want to be in. If you are a good teacher, and you have put yourself in a position where your skills should be valued, than you should fight for the treatment you deserve.
But in many cases those who are judging your teaching ability are Chinese staff who onashamedly speak Chinglish. THEY AREN'T QUALIFIED TO JUDGE US!
As for putting yourself in a position where your skills should be valued, that's difficult to do. I've witnessed 'good teachers' being fired for fighting for the treatment they deserve, while 'bad teachers' who didn't rock the boat were kept on.
Teaching in China is often a farce, too many students in a class, and most of them prefer to be entertained. If you're not an entertainer, you'll be on your way when your contract's up. Given the above scenario, what's the point in trying to be a model teacher? Pretend to do the job well, and shut up about injustices. It's an even better deal if you slacken off, and just what those stuck-up Chinese directors deserve!
David
- 2012-03-01
To me there is a big difference between trying to change China (as you put it) and trying to have some control over how you are being treated in terms of your career. Except maybe for Christian Missionaries, I don't think many foreign English teachers are trying to change anything about the Chinese culture, but they are trying to protect the status of their profession, just as they would in their home countries. Not making waves is fine for someone who is just passing through China for the experience -- or someone who views his job as nothing more than sacrificing his time for a pay check -- but people who actually care about their career should not hesitate to stand up for it and to do the best to put themselves in the position they want to be in. If you are a good teacher, and you have put yourself in a position where your skills should be valued, than you should fight for the treatment you deserve. If you don't do so then both you and others like you will suffer. Avoiding making waves in order to keep your job -- like local teachers, Filipino teachers, and unqualified teachers -- will cause you to keep getting less and less respect.
San Migs
- 2012-02-29
Utter rot, is what he has contributed.
Follow his advice, and you will be walked all over like a doormat, while they get rich off your back. Insanity!
San Migs
- 2012-02-29
So, let's stop bickering about morals, and get pissed instead. We can afford to drink and eat well on our salaries here!
Sorry, but I can not and will never agree.
Last night, two chinese people came to my school provided flat to ask me to teach on saturdays and sundays at their training centre. The salary offered was reasonable for the second tier town I am in, but I refused on the basis of they never contacted me prior to this, and got the feeling the boss would be making more off me than he was letting on.
GW's who sell out and work at training centres always use the lets stop bickering about morality line, let's just have a good time, go with the flow...all conversational gambits and utter nonsense imho!
Get a GRIP!
Sinacure
- 2012-02-29
Many of the foreign teachers working in China are very accommodating to their Chinese bosses. I suppose they feel vulnerable and think they can make up for their lackluster teaching by keeping on the right side of their employers by not making waves. Most of them need their jobs here very much, so they follow the example set by their Chinese colleagues, who never dare to offend the boss. Those westerners are not really grovelers at heart. It's just the environment that makes them so. I can excuse them. After all, it's good money for a light workload. Well worth the being here. Much better than working your socks off back home for a lower standard of living. So, let's stop bickering about morals, and get pissed instead. We can afford to drink and eat well on our salaries here!
Martin Morris
- 2012-02-29
You have given us invaluable advice, Steven. Yours is one of the best and most practical posts I've read on this board. It's clear to me you've cracked it here! Thanks so much for your contribution. Newbies would do well to do as you have done from day one of their employment here. That's the way to become an old hand here, no doubt about it.
San Migs
- 2012-02-29
and YOU area guest.
Grovelling.weasel.sellout.talk!
Wish these boards had killfile like newsgroups circa 1990s era.
Jackson
- 2012-02-29
You have a some great points and clearly have been in China long enough to have adapted. You've added clarity to the reality of teaching here, and what to expect.
I however, have to wholeheartedly disagree with your dishonesty is everywhere comment. Dishonesty, lies, and misleading people in China are at astronomical levels and ingrained in nearly every facet of Chinese society, and the business practices here are criminal, period. We all know this. My students know this, and complain about it without provocation routinely. Saying otherwise would be dishonest in itself;)
Dragonized
- 2012-02-29
In my country tehre is a sying - "don't sh*t on your host's white carpet"
In China, it's very hard to find anything that stays consistently white. One person I knew spent like 600 dollars on an imported filter for his washing machine as he said that the local water turned all his clothes brown XD. On to the main point, any goodwill that is displayed only on the surface by the locals cannot be taken as true virtue. Doing something for "face" is similiar to doing something in the name of "vanity" in western countries, in fact in many cases it's the absolute same thing. People are a lot similiar than you think.
The way they do things is rooted in 5,000 years of their culture and you aren't going to change it. Not this year, not next, not ever.
Wrong again, Steven. The "5,000 years of culture" phrase has been repeated non-stop, but let's just call it for what it is: a DOGMA. China may or may not have 5,000 years of history. They certainly DO NOT have 5,000 years of culture. Modern day Mandarin Chinese which is the offical language of the country certainly has an official, accounted, written history of less than 1,000 years old, it might even be almost half that. The beijing dialect which it is based out of was considered to be a border language spoken by minority outcasts and tribal types who mixed with chinese who moved there. Modern day simiplified chinese, the offical written language supposedly had roots going back maybe (and that's being generous) 200 years almost all of which I've heard is basically based on legend rather than hard evidence. It has been implemented successfully on a wide scale for less than half a century as most books printed in China in the 50's and 60's were still in traditional chinese format. If you go out on the streets and ask a Chinese person what life during the Tang or Han dynasty was like, what the language back then was like, the customs, etc.; would they know anything?? NO. Modern day Chinese culture or "culture" depending on what you're talking about is very new. The only consistent behavior that is passed down is largely negative and even most Chinese will not acknowledge to a foreigner that these habits should be considered "chinese culture". Why would you call something by a name when in fact the people who inherit that very thing do not want you calling it by that name?
The dishonesty you find in China is everywhere. It was back in your own country, it is in your new country, it will be in your next country. The only place where everyone is honest is the cemetery. Get used to it.
The dishonesty can be found in every country. Will you say that this dishonesty is in fact even in every country? I don't see that. No you only want to be an ignoramous and generalize all dishonesty as being on the same scale relatively speaking. I'm sure you've abused the law and screwed someone over sometime before, which is why it's so easy for you to make such a crass and narcissistic statement.
The Training Schools in China don't teach? Neither do the Chinese High Schools I have taught at and even the Chinese Universities I have taught at. 65 students in a 45 minute class gives, even under the ebst circumstances, 40 seconds of "face time" with the foreigner. How mjch Englishg can someone learn in 40 seconds? Half your class is fast asleep in class? The parents don't care, the princiupal doesn't care and as long as you let them sleep the students don't care. Why should you care? Teach the ones who want to learn and let the rest sleep.
I have worked at public school jobs in China before and what you have described is in fact true for the students. But we are talking about teachers not being cheated out of their salaries, being given tolerable living conditions, and not being abused physically and verbally if they only make a stand for themselves. Public jobs have a better chance of giving what they promised. At training centers you will find a lot more politicking and backstabbing amongst the foreign teachers, this is a fact. You can stop with the unnecessary tangents.
Save your breath, save your bandwidth, save your career (those who complain too much get labeled as a "troublemaker" and find their contracts not getting renewed) and save your sanity - go with the flow, not against it.
If anyone needs a good example of a person with their head in the sand, they should keep the link to the post that this "Steven Katz" made. It is not important to speak out, it is not important to be your own person, it is not important to listen to any bad news. Go with the flow because BY GOD everyone should have a sane experience as long as they do what you do, Steven! You're the end which justifies the means! I went with the flow before, and got burned for it. When you allow yourself to be abused, if the employer has already made up their mind about you merely because of your looks the abuse will not stop until you lose the job, your money, and dignity as they will try to take away as much of it as they could before they kick you out of the door.
You are probably an [edited][edited][edited][edited] for telling others to think like this. That is my opinion of you. How much extra money did you make this month for ratting out your fellow co-workers, huh? 50rmb? 100rmb?
Steven Katz
- 2012-02-29
When you are a foreigner entering a different culture you have to realize - it is THEIR culture and THEIR way of doing things and YOU area guest. In my country tehre is a sying - "don't sh*t on your host's white carpet" which seems to apply. If you don't like the way things are done, just remember - YOU CAN'T CHANGE CHINA. The way they do things is rooted in 5,000 years of their culture and you aren't going to change it. Not this year, not next, not ever.
The dishonesty you find in China is everywhere. It was back in your own country, it is in your new country, it will be in your next country. The only place where everyone is honest is the cemetery. Get used to it.
The Training Schools in China don't teach? Neither do the Chinese High Schools I have taught at and even the Chinese Universities I have taught at. 65 students in a 45 minute class gives, even under the ebst circumstances, 40 seconds of "face time" with the foreigner. How mjch Englishg can someone learn in 40 seconds? Half your class is fast asleep in class? The parents don't care, the princiupal doesn't care and as long as you let them sleep the students don't care. Why should you care? Teach the ones who want to learn and let the rest sleep.
Adaptation involves not trying to be the salmon constantly swimming upstream, but rather being the leaf gently floating down stream. You will no sooner change the direction that the stream flows than you will change China. Save your breath, save your bandwidth, save your career (those who complain too much get labeled as a "troublemaker" and find their contracts not getting renewed) and save your sanity - go with the flow, not against it.