I would agree with Clyde and LondonGirl that foreign teachers should avoid copulating with their students, or even worse consider it a perk or part&parcel of the job to do so. However, we don't want to start expecting that little liaisons won't ever occur or assume that the teacher is necessarily a sexual predator or the student a victim. We should not become rigid and unbending, suggesting that the wrath of God should always fall upon his or their heads, irrespective of what the motivations were. We do not want to turn this thing into a witch-hunt. Unexpected relationships can happen to all of us-we can shock ourselves. I believe Clyde and LG are 90% right but only 90%.

Also, it is absolutely none of our businesses if a 75 year old westerner marries a 22 year old Chinese girl. We should wish them luck, they will need it.

If you were to approach a Native Chinese girl under the fingers of some rich/powerful/influential local Chinese man and was made a mistress and you tried to persuade her to change her mind and get herself some self respect, how would you react if she said, "Guan Ni Pi Shi" (none of your f&^£ing business). Try to talk to the local Chinese about this issue and when they respond with "Mei Ban Fa", then what do you do? Sometimes being able to make bad free choices can seem painful to outsiders, but you cannot change the local people, period.

Your argument failed the "pedophile litmus test" because the same argument could be used to justify pedophilia. I've told you about this flaw in your logic already. It's like saying, "go tell the slave that doesn't want to be freed that he should be free and then what will you do when he tells you to F@^# off?"

Your argument presupposes a victim who is happy with the circumstances, thus automatically absolving the culprit of any responsibility.

Why don't you go tell someone student who nearly excepted being raped by a foreign teacher that she should NOT worry about her self-respect and dignity. Then ask yourself how you would feel when she says "cao ni ma!"?

Derp!

You said, "She is not my student.."
So there is no moral dilemma. Outside America, it is okay to have considerably younger women, as long as they are of legal age.
So look upon this as a moral obligation. A duty. You owe it to that young woman to service her properly!

It doesn't matter as long as she's a student in the same university (and I've seen that in legal terms, because you can't be the gym teacher and then just go around f[edited]ing the English majors and then it's OK.). I can tell you from experience that any student I met in a Chinese university thought of me as their teacher whether I was or not. Some students I taught one lesson to, or just was introduced to by my students one time while passing. After that, I was their teacher. You have the same respect, power and influence whether they are in your class or the class next to you.

Nice try though.

There’s been a bit of speculation about how Chinese would react to the scenario that was described by Romeo. Purely out of coincidence a Chinese friend of mine sent me a page on QQ (the Chinese social networking tool) containing 100 pictures that are said to represent modern day Chinese society. Here is link to the original file if anyone is interested.

http://forum.book.sina.com.cn/thread-2936143-1-1.html

As I was looking down this page what should I happen to see but an elderly Western gent and a young Chinese girl. The man in question is 71 years old and the woman is a 25year old post graduate student at Fudan. The couple have a child together. When I used baidu to find some more info the first page of results were all forums (Chinese language only). The below is a brief selection of comments left on the first page of the first site that came up on baidu. I've done my best to translate them accurately. This is the original site that contains many and more comments on the topic.

http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=547388472

恶心.色老头 Disgusting, perverse old man

不知此女怎么想的 I don’t know what she’s thinking

如过那个老头有钱的话,我就知道那个女的是怎么想的了 If that old man has money, then I know precisely what that girl is thinking

看到她的长相我就没什么想法了，外国人品味果然不同 Just take a look at her appearance, foreigners don’t have the same taste in women

此女心知肚明~~其相令宇宙颤抖 We all know this girls purpose, her true purpose makes the universe shudder!

个人选择 It’s an individual's choice

我� 语。不发表评论 I’m speechless. Unable to comment.

唉 真单纯� 这说明这孩子不是他干出来的 是别人给干出来的 也就是戴帽子吧 Oh dear, As you thought (referring to an earlier post) the child isn’t his (the foreigner’s) it’s someone else’s. The man is wearing a (green) hat (Chinese idiom for your wife cheating on you)

也不一定是贪图钱财 有一种情结叫恋老 很正常 大家口味不一� �而已 我一个女同事只找中老年 只对年纪大的有性趣 It’s not certain that she’s only interested in the money. Some girls like older guys, it’s common, and everyone’s tastes are different. I have a colleague who only looks for old Chinese men, she’s only wants sex with them.

晕，这女的也不漂亮啊，腿太粗了，也不知道老外怎么想的 That girl isn’t beautiful, her legs are fat. I don’t know what that old guy is thinking

An interesting range of views and in many ways some of the comments mirror those that us laowai have made on this board. The fact that this should also be choosen as an image that represents modern China is also worth noting in regards some of the arguments and counter arguments that people have made in refrence to Chinese culture.

To quote Evelyn Beautrice Hall,

Don't forget, your first thread on this board regarding why people should think twice about working in China could also have been interpreted as an appeal for some sympathy towards the expat community in general. People have a wider range of experiences than you may anticipate and in my mind you jumped to conclusions way to quickly with some folks.

San Migs seems really confused!

Sex with students is a FELONY in some States in the US, including with students over 21 years old.

Well, that law is just outdated and ridiculous if you are asking for my opinion, you are going to get it!!

The age should be 16, not 21.

As I said it is an issue of employment law, therefore, not criminal law.

Those laws are relatively new San. They aren't "outdated and ridiculous" at all. They reflect attempts to make society more fair for everyone, and to give girls and young women a chance to grow up without being confronted by sexual harassment

If it is a "felony" and a charge of "sexual assault" that is a crime. You can be imprisoned for it. What the hell are you trying to say about it being "employment law"? We are not just talking about getting fired here, which you would most likely be for dating a student. How much worse could the punishment be than prison. In fact, in Texas, it can be up to 20 years in prison, even if the girl is over 21.

You say it should be 16 and not 21. Uh, not only have you just shot yourself in the foot by wanting access to ever younger women – now clearly under-aged girls – but, you've missed the main point once again. We are not talking about the "age of consent" here, we are talking about teacher/student relationships. It's different. Students are off-limits to teachers. How many times do I have to say this? The laws for "age of consent" and for teacher/student relationships are different. The teacher/student situation is like the doctor/patient situation. It's a question of one party having power and authority over the other, AND in the case of students there is usually a significant difference in age as well.

You may be against social progress, but, luckily for the rest of us you are the dinosaur of a bygone era, hopelessly behind the times, and clinging to vestiges of former patriarchy that allowed men to exploit and take advantage of women and girls.

Sorry guys (incredibly but predictably there appear to be women in this discussion, otherwise the old-boy posse would certainly have been annihilated) but I can't play with your deluded selves any longer. You can tell it was a lot of work to take on the whole lot of sexpats who think it's a good idea to fuck students (and the one who thinks the fuckable age should be lowered to 16). Not to gloat, but I pretty much whipped your asses. If you had much wisdom, you wouldn't be arguing for having sex with students to begin with. You might as well be arguing that the Holocaust never happened (significantly, I've actually lost a debate on that in the same way I will lose this one, by defeating all arguments, people being unwilling to concede, eventually leaving, and them claiming victory).

Part of the reason I kept up with the hopeless endeavor of trying to convince you guys that you shouldn't be sleeping with your students, when for some of you it's the biggest perk of living in China (Am I right? Am I right?), but I wanted to get the ideas out there and draw more attention to this thread.

Yes I had to repeat myself a lot, because not only do people not read what I wrote to others, but usually don't even read what I wrote to them, but just repeat the same shit about, "If she's 21 she's a consenting adult!" and ignore the whole issue of the teacher/student relationship.

If you guys have any intellectual integrity, you'll probably question your conclusions at some later time when your online-macho face isn't at stake. But, if not, than I really, really feel sorry for your students. They deserve so much better.

Lastly,

from me to you

KEEP YOUR F[edited] HANDS OFF OF STUDENTS YOU DISGRACEFUL, PATHETIC [edited].

cheers

Thus your statement that "A 21 year old is a woman, not a girl, end of discussion!" was also a false conclusion to a losing argument. In some states it is a felony for a teacher to have sex with a 21 year old student at the campus where the teacher works.

Sorry, forgot this part Clyde.

It's not personal against you, but you only quoted the law and statistics for the United States. I am sure you will agree the USA does not equate with all of the west, yes?

It's such a pity you came up against this stumbling block so early. I feel it's deprived the forum of good debate for future topics. I agree, you're trying to argue against a howling mob, and it's pointless you going on. I suppose, I agreed with you about 80%, with some reservations which i would like to have debated properly with you and others; but it's not your fault that you've been shouted down.

At this point I find myself single-handedly taking on a group of middle-aged or older men who have dominated this whole forum for years. They seem to agree that it is not only OK to have sex with one's university students (as long as they are over the legal age of 19, otherwise it's wrong), but one poster in particular, thinks all Chinese "women" over 20 should be having sex, and a middle-aged foreigner is the only person to teach them because he has sexual skills that no Chinese man possesses. This kind of drivel is extremely offensive, racist, and misogynistic, which is why I suspect few women survived the bullying they get here from a small coterie of sexpat men, who, customarily attack all Western women as "2nd rate" while they themselves are undoubtedly not better themselves, and probably a good deal worse looking.

In any case, I have proven that having sex with one's university students is against the law and punishable by imprisonment in the States if the students are 17-18, and even if they are 21 or older in a few states. This is because of the teacher/student relationship, which is one of power. The teacher has authority over the student, AND he or she is entrusted to teach the student, not take advantage of proximity to younger people in order to try to take advantage of them sexually. I'm sure you all know it's against the "code of conduct" for teachers to sleep with students are ANY place of learning where there is an instructor/student relationship.

Contrary to the assertions of some outspoken advocates of [edited] the youngest students that can be considered "women" by law in China, it is NOT a conservative position to want to look out for students and allow them to choose their sexual partners from among their peers, without the interference of teachers (notice that nobody here is complaining about adult students having sex with their peers), and especially without teachers breaking the code of conduct to try to have sex with the students themselves. On the contrary, this is a liberal policy intended to insure that students get a quality education and have the best chance of a prosperous future without being harmed along the way by thoughtless, careless, selfish and self-serving older adult teachers.

This is really a no-brainer, and any man who struts around bragging about sex with students is a disgrace to the profession of teaching. Further, such men, of which abound in Asia, have seriously tarnished the reputation of foreign teachers overseas, and probably also lost us respect and compromised the salaries we are given.

Aside from the fact that one could at very least lose one's job in the West for having sex with students, or go to prison, there are the professional reasons one should not do it, as follows:

Students will lose respect for the teacher, because he has brought himself down to their level by positioning himself as a suitable sexual partner for them. Many will also recognize the moral lapse. The teacher is no longer a role model, but someone who is trying to be one of the students himself.

Students will become suspicious and distrustful of the teacher, not knowing if their grades reflect his assessment of them physically/sexually, whether or not they are flirting enough… They will suspect the girl who is having sex with the teacher may be getting a better grade than she deserves. Obviously, any idea of a fair education is out the window.

Of course, none of this matters to the middle-aged sexpat who goes online strutting his sexual conquests and attacking those who would condemn his actions as mere advantage taking. He will sideline that fact that nobody is arguing against sex, or against having sex with people who are younger that are NOT his students. He will do anything but address the actual teacher/student factor.

Lastly, for anyone who is thinking of having sex with his students, there is a clear cut answer to your moral quandry = Don't do it! Go find yourself a girlfriend outside of your school. This is the same as the doctor/patient code, or the psychologist/patient code.

I can't waste any more time with the small posse of sexpats who continually attack and insult Western women, while spewing racist rhetoric about Chinese women. If this were a debate, I won it a long, long time ago. But isn't. This is a forum, the majority rules, and the last person to post is always right. Thus I cannot possibly win this argument as some posters have been on here for at least 3-4 years, and will continue to repeat already defeated ludicrous arguments.

I know I won this argument. It was a piece of cake. You can't defend [edited] your students. [edited]

Cheers.

[If I'm not here to shoot down the sexpat drivel, it's because I already have, and I'm not just going to do it over and over]

Sure, if short term relationships are what you're looking for then maybe it would work for you. But knowing mandarin opens up a whole new world of politicking, interpersonal conflicts, and general dissonance on many issues within your own mind from interacting with the local culture. Do not forget you are putting yourself at risk for a who new world of problems that you don't have too much experience necessarily dealing with.

Let's just keep things simple, of course we can explore the endless possiblities which both of us haven done, but it's not like the others really give a shyte. I reckon we might be the only ones reading each other's posts XD. I was reading a book recently on sociopaths and there was an interesting logic on the mistaken assumptions we all make of people with this anti-social personality disorder. In the book the reasearcher stated that normal people who deduce what anti-social is usually believe that it is tied in with folks who are lacking in social skills and alienate others easily and therefore are loners. But the truth is nothing is further from the truth with these types of individuals as they are always smart enough to manipulate others into thinking highly of them and mostly are successful at getting the social circle around them to view them in high regards. They even trick their victims to believing what they say despite making their victims suffer blatantly with the aformentioned victim feeling the damage to their personal and professional lives. In other words they are master manipulators at reading and misdirecting the emotions of others.

The way you have reacted to the Romeo poster was taking on a stance of assuming this individual as possibly possessing personality problems and wouldn't be someone whom you would want to associate with. My point is this poster made his intentions blatantly obvious on a public forum, so there is no hidden agenda. What we don't want to do is scare off people who are genuinely in a midlife crisis and who may need Professional help but cannot afford it. It's come down to googling your personal problems and hoping on a prayer that you may be able to find a forum or a website with useful information on how to deal with some of your problems.

On a more personal note, it seems that Western intellectuals and researchers still are stuck in the mindset of taking assumptions that certain cultures such as China, Taiwan, and other Eastern Asian countries have a lower rate of psychological disorders amongst the population. Nothing could be further from the truth in my mind. I have personally interacted and dealt with many Chinese individuals with Narcissistic or Anti-Social personalities and there was at least one that had me gaslighted (fooled) for a couple of years. I don't want to see others jumping to conclusions just because the people whom they interact with in China are not knowledgeable on certain issues. There are enough horror stories of the western/eastern marriage or business partnership that ended up on the wrong end of reciprocity for the westerner.

Well said Cupid, I could not agree more with you! Western women are indeed second rate/second class.

Why stay in the crappy West with it's trashy women when you can be in Asia and snag a 22 year Chinese or Thai babe!

The best thing of all, even if you are poor and ugly you can still latch on to some PYT!

If her family is wealthy, even better!

Yep, Aussies ,Yanks, Brits, you can keep your also-ran local women, who needs em or wants em?

Go to Asia, get a rose. Stay in the West and get the weeds/leftovers

As someone who ……

Thanks for sharing your insight. I’m not about to claim your personal experience of working at 1 university in China is wrong because it is of course your experience but please don’t make blanket statements like “nobody I’ve ever met” thinks …….. and then expect this to be taken to prove a point. I’ve worked for longer in China and at more institutions than yourself and my experience of the situation and view on it is different and i'd be happy to share actual experiences as opposed to the conjecture of others to back that up.

But you have no evidence for your assertion

Nor do you for many of the statements that you made in your post. Let’s face it, we are both just speculating about the relationship and the intentions of both parties. However, it is a fact that the OP is not this girl’s teacher. Therefore he can't be accused of somehow using that position to coerce her into doing something she might not wish to do. There is the danger that immoral behavior such as cheating, intimidating, lying, etc. exist within any relationship between people of any nationality and age but that’s the risk you take when entering into one. Should an individual act in these ways then they can be deemed to have been immoral but the situation as it stands (two people liking each other and express themselves accordingly) is not immoral. This was the point I was making with the Kraus quote (I wasn’t suggesting you were Christian!). It seems ridiculous to think of yourself (or another individual) of having performed an immoral act before you’ve actually done it. You’re right, maybe this is the first in a long line of students who will be bonked and then disregarded despite their feelings or it could be a genuine attempt at a relationship, either way you can’t judge a person as being immoral until they've actually performed that immoral act. In my opinion when two humans like each other and express that feeling physically there is no moral question to be answered. In fact, existence of a reciprocal feeling between two individuals seems to fit nicely with the ‘golden rule’ you stated in your previous post (do onto others …..).

Towards the end of your argument you seem to write much more about your own personal preference for finding a girlfriend than making any statement about morality. If you don’t deem the women at universities to be ‘real’, old enough or attractive enough then that’s up to you but it is not immoral for an individual to disagree with your preferences. I myself am married to a Chinese women (not a student you’ll be pleased to hear) but someone who is 3 years younger than me, undoubtedly not as worldly as me and a former colleague of mine. Do you think I acted immorally in this situation? Is she not a ‘real’ woman or is our marriage or our son any less ‘real’ because I didn’t go outside college grounds to find her? You tell me. You seem to have a pretty good view from that horse you rode in on!

It seems to me that whether a situation is morally right or wrong depends on one’s own values or the values to which you judge a situation against. For me it is not immoral for 2 adults (you can attack my semantics but they are both legally adults and what is the law if it doesn't in some way represent a society's moral values?) to like each other (or for that matter lust after one another) and to act upon and express those feelings. I have no qualms about you having a different moral view from me but again remember your own ‘golden rule’ and realize that the door swings both ways. One day you might find someone disagrees with an aspect of your life on moral grounds that you don’t share.

Happy Birthday Terry! That's all I gotta' say. You seem like a good guy and I wish you the best. I also believe that you positive attitude will do a lot to counter some of the negativity I spoke of before. You can see from some other recent posts one of the reasons that leaders and other Chinese staff will resent foreign male teachers. Anyway, wish you the best in China.

Wow, Dragonized, your response is encyclopedic in nature! I need a cup of tea just to deal with it. It must be one of the most thoughtful responses I've ever seen online, and feeling particularly guilty that I wasted so much of your time in provoking you into writing it, I feel I've got to reciprocate by doing it justice in reading it and responding in kind. Here it goes.

on the surface the Chinese students can APPEAR to be more naive simply out of the fact that their maturity level is not equal to their western counterparts.

It sounds like you are acknowledging that they are less mature. You'd have to agree that they are also more sheltered, I'd think, because they live on campus in crowded dormitories with no privacy. None of my students had a car, and maybe only a few even had a motorbike. Just compare that to a Western student having a car and either his/her own apartment or a dorm with just a couple people and less restrictions. Chinese students are much more controlled and have curfews and often have to get up en-mass at a certain hour and do exercises. A Western university student has far, far more freedom. They aren't getting drunk as often. They aren't smoking pot. They aren't doing LSD. They are snug in their little tiny dorm beds, like sardines, just like if they were in High School. Also, many of them come from the countryside and don't have computers. Most my students didn't even have a computer. Most of them had never had a boyfriend, and if they did it was just someone they texted on the phone.

However, the fact is the students in China will appeal to flattery to the western teachers and appear to be more naive and vulnerable when in fact they may be merely manipulating you about them being that way.

I hear what you are saying, but, I'm a fairly seasoned Oral English teacher who knows how to get students talking and put them at their ease. I'd taught children before moving on to the university, and getting students to express themselves was no problem. As for manipulating me, there was really no reason to try to do it. They were graded based on their participation level in class and general fluency. There was no room to manipulate. Back to maturity. Many of the freshmen were "fresh" from their hometowns, wearing clothing with giant Hello Kitty's or other cartoon characters on them, and there could be no comparison between them and freshmen in the West.

I remember reading a banned Chinese book which quoted a mixed White-Asian American Female reporter by the name of Sheryl WuDunn and quoted her along the lines of saying how being in China with a Chinese face allowed her access to the real China.

This is probably true, but it doesn't mean that students are less sheltered or naive than they might appear. OK, let's just say how sheltered and naive they appear. Completely! Actually, my freshmen students looked about as mature as Junior High students in America. So to say they are less innocent than they appear still keeps them remarkably innocent. I'm not saying they are all virgins (and I suspect there are those who are not because of family members…): one doesn't have to be a virgin to be innocent or naive.

Chinese students will generally not be as well mannered, have strong logical thought, and trust themselves and their own intuition when they are in a college environment as their western counterparts as well due to the cultural upbringing of keeping your opinions to yourself, but that doesn't mean they don't hold those opinions

Maybe I flatter myself too much, but, it seemed a fair amount of my students were fairly comfortable expressing their opinions. Well, I made them do it in debates enough times. But I completely agree that they are NOT encouraged to do that in general academia. Actually, it seems they are encouraged to memorize and regurgitate. A problem there is the hierarchy, because you can't question the teacher's opinion or conclusion without questioning his/her authority, and his/her authority is not to be questioned. On the other hand, if you are a foreign teacher who welcomes them to think for themselves and express their opinions of various topics, they are more likely to do so.

I cannot believe for a moment that logically there can be any GENUINE naivety with a group of people who are willing to forgo common sense and manipulate even themselves to the point where they forget how to form an honest, trusting relationship.

This is an interesting conclusion. I have to say my students seemed to genuinely form lasting, close relationships with each other. they hold each others hands in class. I'd see them everywhere together. Actually, it seemed because of their living in close quarters that they developed very strong bonds. What you are talking about, them having to be brainwashed (so to speak), and even self-monitor, self-censor, doesn't mean to me that they would not be naive or innocent. They hate all that stuff, which is why they tend to automatically like foreign teachers. I never had a problem of students not liking me. Having to abide bu cultural codes creates a kind of shackle, but this is designed to keep the populace naive. So, I can't agree with what you were saying. I got the opposite. I saw naive students forming lasting relationships.

Chinese soap operas on TV in China with how husbands and wives interact with one another, the lack of an ability to keep an honest and decent conscious saps even the most basic intimacy from the closest relationships.

I agree with the idea that it is inappropriate to have a relationship with a student who is 21 and you are twice her age. You did however forget to mention that it should be inappropriate in ANY country, developed or undeveloped.

I thought that was implicit. It IS punishable in California, as I just read. Yes, of course, one shouldn't sleep with one's students anywhere, as a general matter of trust. People are only getting away with that in developing countries these days.

n your argument you merely attacked the individual who wanted the relationship with the student. What you didn't mention was justifying the higher moral standard that the teacher was supposed to bring.

You just hit the nail on the head. The teacher isn't just an instructor in a particular subject, but also a role model. I believed this strongly when I was a teacher. (I'm currently on holiday so some of it is mercifully slipping my mind, but I'll be back teaching very soon, just not in China.) And that is precisely one of the reasons to treat students as students, not as potential lovers or conquests. One should be showing them the value of integrity, and that corruption is NOT the best way to be in the world. Going out drinking with them and trying to be the cool kid on the block (while in one's middle age), and then thinking, "hey, I think I can get in this girl's knickers" is just a show of weakness and immaturity.

Your continued focus with seemingly attacking the character of the original poster won't make him think his actions are less appropriate, it would bring shame at the most which can backfire if he is in a weaker emotional state and will only drive him to go deeper into his pursuit with the relationship.

Yeah, but if he found himself seeking solace in a 21 year old because of something a stranger wrote on a forum, I think he'd realize he needed to reel himself back in and grow a spine. You are right that I've been heavy handed. It's because I've read a lot of the recent posts, and there's a lot of overtly chauvinistic posturing on this forum, and I predicted (rightly, it turns out), that such elements would encourage the OP. So I needed to use strong words and examples both because of who I was addressing, and because of the other vocal members in the forum.

Nobody ever said it was okay to date under-age students, the original poster certainly didn't. Your merely adding fuel to the fire for your own argument by putting others down with exaggeration.

That's not my intent. My intent is to get them to get out of the mere semantics of "they are both adults" to look at who the people really are, to acknowledge that one day (say before and after a birthday) could be the rhetorical different between absolutely wrong and doing the girl a favor by liberating her from Chinese sexual oppression. I want people to stop trying to hide behind words, like "adult" and look more directly at the real situation, at people, and circumstances. I am trying to get them to see all the grey area between completely wrong and doing a favor. In fact the situation is in the grey, dark grey.

But the fact is we don't control the behavior of others, we may only guide them. If you express your right ideas in the wrong manner, it may actually be used against you in the worst way and that is to ignore outright.

True. And perhaps one has to gamble with which tactic one uses with which audience. I still think being very clear that it is wrong and pathetic is the right antidote to the kind of retarded advice he will generally get here, that it is noble and altruistic. Often these men know they are weak. I had a friend who surprised me by admitting it. At one point he slipped out that he liked 18 year olds. Basically, he liked the youngest legal age, which means younger than that but the law keeps him at saying 18. Well, on another occasion he admitted that the women back home wouldn't even look at him. At least he was honest with himself.

Your reasons sound just and absolutely right on the surface (again) but you don't give a resolution or suggestions to the foreign guy on how he can find a woman out of the immediate vicinity where he works at.

My intent there is to deflate any claim they are making of being a stud. Obviously they aren't. They can't meet a real woman so date students. Fist off, whether or not they can meet a real woman, they STILL need to keep their hands off of students. But, if as some posters claim, they are God's gift to Chinese women, they should probably have a harem following them everywhere they go. As for meeting Chinese women, well, they are pretty much the receptionists everywhere, most the bank tellers, the waiters, you name it. They are put up front in the service industry. So, wherever you go you will meet Chinese women. I can recall a beautiful bank teller giving me her phone number and telling me that if I need any help I can call her. (I didn't, because she was too young for me). Actually, one gets that offer quite a lot, of calling them if you need any help. You will also find lots of women who will tell you they want to practice English. I've had beautiful women sit down with me when I was minding my own business sitting in KFC. Friends will introduce one to other people. I've been set up in China. Also, meeting Chinese English teachers can also be helpful. And while I didn't want to associate much with my peers at the university, because they often would be questioned by "leaders" afterwards, and I was trying to avoid any extra-curricular obligations, if one makes friends with some teachers and is genuine, that could lead to meeting really a lot of local people. But, in the end, does the poster want a real relationship with an independent woman, or just sex with a glorified kid? Y'know, sure, they are technically adults, but at that age, not only are they half the age of most middle-aged Lao Wai in China, they're half the weight! Some of them still have rosy cheeks and what looks like baby fat. They look like kids to me until they are seniors. Seriously. Freshmen are like babies to me.

your pre-occupation with seemingly winning the argument against the Magister poster would only turn off the original poster from considering your words.

I don't know which way that would go. But I do think this ring of guys boasting about sexual conquest in China needs to have some major chunks taken out of it, and simple logic can do that. In part you are reacting to my attempts to fight fire with fire, and beat them at their own game, which is posturing and strutting. If whoever yells loudest wins, and I can yell loudest, might as well do it, and then sit people down and have a proper discussion now that they will listen.

I don't think you think highly of the poster who started this thread, which means you already passed judgement against someone whom you haven't met either.

I think he needs a swift kick up the ass before he fucks up anymore. I would hate to have some middle-aged dude trying to fuck my students. And I know them well enough to know absolutely, that such meddling in their lives from some foreign prick is NOT going to liberate them or help them. It's going to tarnish them.

But I believe carrying a little empathy and realizing expats are in a lonely place with a need for company can give you a better chance at giving more ideas since you would be operating from a more open mind.

Yes, but if one is in a bar and there are 3-4 other guys giving high-fives, and that's what the OP is looking for (some justification for something he knows is weak and wrong), than empathy might not be the right tactic. I mentioned somewhere that when I was a grad student the dean of my department gave us a talk about dating undergraduates we'd be instructing. She was very clear. She said, "Don't do it. It's that simple." Then she gave us all the reasons why. Among them was compromising one's own authority; losing the trust of the students; creating jealousy and suspicion and rivalry; an creating an atmosphere of unfairness that was antithetical to the kind of utopia one would want a place of learning to be. She was right 100%, and if I'm ever in charge of teachers, they are going to get a similar lecture.

If I were to take the route of empathy, I'd tell him that, yes, students can be alluring, and there are many of them that will like you and who you will like. I've met students and thought, "Wow, I wish she was ten years older." And I've also thought that a goodly percentage of my students would make good girlfriends or wives, if there weren't the age difference, different citizenship, and other glaringly obvious reasons why we should not be involved. And I would say, "You have to be strong and resist temptation. You have to tell yourself that students are absolutely off limits. You have to stop socializing with them outside of class in situations that allow for flirting and so on. And then, miraculously, you will stop lusting after them as well, just as a person who quits smoking will often lose the craving. But if you think it's OK and you go forth with it, it will only get worse, and there will be more girls."

When you say "wrong" did you apply those standards to yourself as well? I'm not just talking about dating standards, but all around.

This is so interesting. I like your mind.

wouldn't ANY middle aged man who wasn't married and was single qualify as "wrong" by common sense standards of what is deemed as "normal" in any of the developed countries?

Wrong as in "there's something wrong with this milk"? You mean flawed or inferior? That's possible, but that's a different kind of "wrong" isn't it? That's "there must be something wrong with that guy" versus doing something ethically or morally wrong. This thread is about something that is ethically wrong, and even a flawed or unfortunate individual can rise up to not further compromise himself by sacrificing his morals and fucking with students and their lives.

Also, just to counter the notion that a single middle-aged man is "wrong," in my particular case I could have gotten married but always shied away from it because I quite literally value my freedom first, and also can't quite imagine only being able to have sex with one woman for the rest of my life. Having a wife and family means also having to have a secure job and that can mean having to take shit from the boss. I like being able to say, "Fuck off boss" and only have to worry about myself. If I were rich enough, I might be married, because it wouldn't be such an obvious threat to my independence. But in today's economy, one could lose one's freedom almost completely. Living overseas and being single allows me the most freedom of any of my friends back home.

I can though always improve myself with support whether they be coming from people or from more spiritual sources, but I wouldn't take the advice from someone who merely says, "You can't...".

One doesn't need to take that tactic with you. But some people who are in a quandary would like a clear answer from an authority. This is why people see mystics and such. I offer a clear argument, and a very clear answer. I don't want it to be too muddled or diluted in beating around the bush, or watching out for someone's feelings.

But being that we all have had varying life experiences with interconnecting points of commonality I would say that I should go with the general consensus of what constitutes an adult relationship, and in this case because I do not know the 2 individuals involved I should refrain from judgement.

Fine. One doesn't need to judge to say it's wrong. We all do stupid things sometimes, and make mistakes. I've done them (including signing up to work at a training school in China and ending up in the shittiest apartment I've ever seen). Everyone can also change. So, no judgement on the person, then, but, yes, this action will be stupid if he goes through with it. He should tell the girl, "I am a teacher! I should not get so involved with students."

We don't know the emotional maturity level of the poster himself, either and how much romantic experience he has. Let's hope he makes the right choice, but he shouldn't have to do it with the belief that we are on a higher moral pedestal than he is.

Sure. We are all born ignorant, and we all make mistakes, or get tricked or cheated on the way. If I could go back in time I would kick myself up the ass, like I want to kick this guy, about many of my decisions, because now I have more perspective and can see where I made some major mistakes. So here, I am just offering a greater perspective, and a better argument, and trying to keep the guy from doing something stupid. But, in truth, I'm more concerned about his students than about him. I know students at that level, and they are among my favorite people, and the idea of some middle-aged guy mucking with their lives and trying to have sex with one of them is a little infuriating. That some other men would encourage it is just pathetic and ugly.

I've noticed "Romeo" hasn't come back to offer a rebuttal against Clyde because there isn't a sound and sane one.

I've noticed that too. I doubt it's because of the reason you state.
Perhaps he sees no point in having a public debate about his moral dilemma. I guess he's spending his spare time more productively and happily with his Chinese girlfriend. If I were he, I'd do so too. Debating with Clyde and others of similar viewpoint would be a very unattractive second choice to being together with a young female Chinese stunner. I'll conclude by stating I hope things will continue to go very well for Romeo in respect of the latter.

After a bit of reflection I've decided that your best course of action is to ask the Foreign Affairs Officer (your boss) what he or she thinks. Then see if it's OK with the girl's family. If they all think it's OK, and you don't get threatened with being fired or killed, or both, you might go ahead with your plan to bed the young student. Whether or not you want to ask your own family's opinion is up to you. Of course, it would still be a very serious breach of the code of conduct for teachers (and some of us are dead against it because we put the students first), but that might not be as important to you as satisfying your sexual appetites in the short run. I'm pretty sure you also know that in the long run the relationship is doomed, and her reputation with it.

if you can land a 21 year old, you can surely land someone only a couple years older who has graduated, gotten employed, and is now looking for a foreign, older, rich(?) husband.

You are suggesting it's okay for women to be like gold diggers as they grow older? How do you know this person who is asking about the relationship is well off to begin with?

If you stay in touch with this GIRL, Romeo, then you can explore a further relationship in a couple of years once she graduates and can better be defined as a WOMAN. If you can't wait that long, then your feelings for her are certainly sexual with no hint of love or respect.

What if the student stays in school until she is 25 or 26? How much longer do you expect the person to wait? Your standards for what defines a woman are unexplained, as you just speak out of pure emotion.

On a last note to both you and the other "Iconkiller" poster, you both haven't actually communicated to the girl, either. So you offputting attitude shows a pretty easy disregard for the opinion of any local Chinese. One of the reasons that the "Romeo" poster possibly hasn't responded was he was intimidated by the holier than thou mantras of folks who responded to him. I don't see people who put themselves as better off morally as more of a human being than those who aren't. Your higher morals are first and foremost for yourself and to make yourself a better, more compassionate person. To talk to another person in such a condescending manner like they are somehow less worthy of you (and therefore possibly less of a human being) only makes others think of you as being on that very low level of humanity that you accuse others of.

There is a couple of disturbing things about what you have written. Firstly and most disturbing is that you are seeking advice about this issue. You claim to be 44 yo and you do not understand how wrong this is?
Is it legal in your country for a teacher to have a sexual relationship with a student?
Do you want your 21yo old daughter having a sexual relationship with a 44 yo foreign teacher?
Perhaps you are one of those typical fat unattractive immature losers that is incapable of being involved in a real relationship with someone your own age from your own country, therefore you go to asia for "easy pickings".
You will get caught out, as you can be sure if you are seen with this girl the other students WILL rat on you because they are all seeking brownie points from their head teacher. Any excuse to rat on a foreigner and they pounce on it.

Maybe you should consider how you will explain this issue to your family and friends after you are deported. You certainly will not get another job in china after you get caught out.

Grow up and get a life.

As Terry has mentioned about the grey areas, let me put my thoughts about what you have written down and give my opinion on what I think the situation can also be interepreted as:

In general, nobody I have ever met who has had significant experience teaching university students in China honestly maintains that they are NOT more sheltered and inexperienced than their Western counterparts.

As someone who has taught at the university level in China as well, I can say that on the surface the Chinese students can APPEAR to be more naive simply out of the fact that their maturity level is not equal to their western counterparts. The idea of a college age Western Student having more confidence to stand up to their own opinions, express their own opinions, and be more well equipped to bring out their own confidence with differing opinions in the face of an authority, parental, or societal figure is a well established pre-assumption in the developing societies.

However, the fact is the students in China will appeal to flattery to the western teachers and appear to be more naive and vulnerable when in fact they may be merely manipulating you about them being that way. Do not forget your foreign face, that is already a barrier to you getting the truth from them in how they see reality in general. I remember reading a banned Chinese book which quoted a mixed White-Asian American Female reporter by the name of Sheryl WuDunn and quoted her along the lines of saying how being in China with a Chinese face allowed her access to the real China.

Chinese students will generally not be as well mannered, have strong logical thought, and trust themselves and their own intuition when they are in a college environment as their western counterparts as well due to the cultural upbringing of keeping your opinions to yourself, but that doesn't mean they don't hold those opinions. The ugly politicking and lack of real friendships amongst themselves but making a lifetime effort to put up a facade of "TongXue" (classmate) connections is a good example of this. I cannot believe for a moment that logically there can be any GENUINE naivety with a group of people who are willing to forgo common sense and manipulate even themselves to the point where they forget how to form an honest, trusting relationship. Just look at the Chinese soap operas on TV in China with how husbands and wives interact with one another, the lack of an ability to keep an honest and decent conscious saps even the most basic intimacy from the closest relationships.

You boldly assert the 21 year old girl knows exactly what she's doing, but you have no evidence for your assertion. Therefore I will counter it by boldly asserting she has not idea whatsoever what she is getting into. You say that I seem "unwilling" to see that the Chinese "women" may be trying to use the man in question. We are not talking about "women". Let's not generalize it to the extent that it's a Chinese woman and a Western Man. It is a Chinese student who is only 21, and a Western teacher who is more than double her age. You are trying to play with words to make it sound like they are equal, but I am dealing with the reality of the situation. We are NOT talking about Chinese women, we are talking about a "barely legal" student. Let's not kid ourselves and try to use semantics to justify a totally inappropriate relationship.

I agree with the idea that it is inappropriate to have a relationship with a student who is 21 and you are twice her age. You did however forget to mention that it should be inappropriate in ANY country, developed or undeveloped. In your argument you merely attacked the individual who wanted the relationship with the student. What you didn't mention was justifying the higher moral standard that the teacher was supposed to bring. The problem of teachers having affairs with students or even committing rape/molestation with underage students isn't a western centric problem, it's become more common in China as well. Your continued focus with seemingly attacking the character of the original poster won't make him think his actions are less appropriate, it would bring shame at the most which can backfire if he is in a weaker emotional state and will only drive him to go deeper into his pursuit with the relationship.

I've worked with teachers who have dated their students, and in the case of one of them the students were all under aged (that was a training school). Bother were irresponsible teachers, and selfish. I'm sure you'd agree it's not appropriate to date under-aged students, yes? I thought so. But tack on one or two years and it's a perfectly consensual relationship between adults, is it. It's that black and white? Why, it could even hinge on a birthday.

Nobody ever said it was okay to date under-age students, the original poster certainly didn't. Your merely adding fuel to the fire for your own argument by putting others down with exaggeration. I wouldn't stand by the side of the original poster who asked if having a relationship with a woman 23 years your junior was appropriate or not, but whether or not you and I like it we don't always live in a fair world. If one of my family members went on a trek to Congo in the early 90's and ended up kidnapped and murdered would I think it's fair that this country should exist? If I was a western businessman who got shafted by some crooked locals and a corrupt government in any developing country should I then believe these places deserve our money? I would say no and no to both questions. But the fact is we don't control the behavior of others, we may only guide them. If you express your right ideas in the wrong manner, it may actually be used against you in the worst way and that is to ignore outright.

Argue this one: Go find a real woman outside of the university if you are worthy of having one, and leave the students alone. I'm not being a prude. I've had some hot steamy sex with willing Chinese women, and of course I am attracted to some of my students (and they to me), but I would NOT take advantage of students. Further, while they are attractive in their way, they are really too young for me. I would prefer someone who is actually a real adult, not just someone who has always lived with mommy up until a year ago and now lives in a dormitory at school but is technically by age an adult. I was there to protect them, in all ways, not take advantage of them.

Sure, if the local Chinese could speak English well, could communicate honestly and treat the foreigners with respect which you yourself had said you couldn't get. Your reasons sound just and absolutely right on the surface (again) but you don't give a resolution or suggestions to the foreign guy on how he can find a woman out of the immediate vicinity where he works at. I am not at this point saying it is okay for him to even think about pursuing this potential relationship with this 21 year old students, but your pre-occupation with seemingly winning the argument against the Magister poster would only turn off the original poster from considering your words. I don't think you think highly of the poster who started this thread, which means you already passed judgement against someone whom you haven't met either. But I believe carrying a little empathy and realizing expats are in a lonely place with a need for company can give you a better chance at giving more ideas since you would be operating from a more open mind.

If you can't meet a woman outside the university there's probably something wrong with you, in which case you are definitely not doing your students any favors by dating them. If you CAN find a woman outside the university, than leave your students the hell alone.

Clyde, can I ask you something? If I am not someone who frequents bars, goes clubbing, or likes to party (of which you can find aplenty in China) but am a person who participates in special interest clubs, outdoor activities, charities, and volunteer work (of which there is a scarcity of in China due to the selfish nature of many modern Chinese people, but you should know that from the previous posts I have read that you wrote) then where is a reliable outlet of decent, English speaking, and interesting people whom I can initially meet? Honestly ESL Teaching is not a glorious job, nor one with any stature in any developed country. When you say "wrong" did you apply those standards to yourself as well? I'm not just talking about dating standards, but all around.

Some of the other posters have already said they come here to have an easier life, and wouldn't ANY middle aged man who wasn't married and was single qualify as "wrong" by common sense standards of what is deemed as "normal" in any of the developed countries? What is normal to you? If I had to be totally honest with myself, I would say that being a man who just entered middle age the fact that I am not affluent, that I have not found my soulmate, and that I had to teach overseas to make it through some lean years would make me do enough introspection and think that my social, emotional, and maybe interpersonal skills were lacking in some ways. I can though always improve myself with support whether they be coming from people or from more spiritual sources, but I wouldn't take the advice from someone who merely says, "You can't...".

Normal people may not always be certain of many things, which I would say I have first hand experience in. But being that we all have had varying life experiences with interconnecting points of commonality I would say that I should go with the general consensus of what constitutes an adult relationship, and in this case because I do not know the 2 individuals involved I should refrain from judgement. I do believe that mistakes can often be the best teacher, and some things need to happen in order for the lesson to be learned. In this case either side could be making the mistake with being manipulated by the opposing party. Of course your own experience was different, so you have your ideas. Unfortunately making the closed statement in this case can only make the individual want to HOPE even more, of which more inappropriate behavior can follow. We don't know the emotional maturity level of the poster himself, either and how much romantic experience he has. Let's hope he makes the right choice, but he shouldn't have to do it with the belief that we are on a higher moral pedestal than he is.

Magister, I will have to disagree with you thoroughly, as well as the argument you put forward.

Firstly young Chinese men and women are not as naive and inexperienced as they might first appear.

As someone who has lived and taught in China for nearly 5 years, and taught countless university students, I can tell you that they are much more naive than their Western counterparts, and exceptions to that are just that, exceptions. Contrary to your assertion, they can also be much more naive and inexperienced than they first appear. In general, nobody I have ever met who has had significant experience teaching university students in China honestly maintains that they are NOT more sheltered and inexperienced than their Western counterparts.

You'd also be wrong to believe that the girl in question doesn't know exactly what she is doing. It seems strange that earlier in the week you wrote about the power plays that occur between fts and Chinese management yet you seem unwilling to see the way this often works between Chinese women and men (both foreign & local). Who is say that the girl isn't looking for a visa, a credit card or just wants to experiment with a foreigner.

There is not contraction in my criticisms of leaders for misusing power, and my criticisms of foreign teachers for taking advantage of their position as teachers to take advantage of students. It is one and the same criticism. You boldly assert the 21 year old girl knows exactly what she's doing, but you have no evidence for your assertion. Therefore I will counter it by boldly asserting she has not idea whatsoever what she is getting into. You say that I seem "unwilling" to see that the Chinese "women" may be trying to use the man in question. We are not talking about "women". Let's not generalize it to the extent that it's a Chinese woman and a Western Man. It is a Chinese student who is only 21, and a Western teacher who is more than double her age. You are trying to play with words to make it sound like they are equal, but I am dealing with the reality of the situation. We are NOT talking about Chinese women, we are talking about a "barely legal" student. Let's not kid ourselves and try to use semantics to justify a totally inappropriate relationship.

Instead he's waited until he's sure he likes the girl and she likes him and is then asking advice on the situation.

It doesn't matter if he likes her and she likes him. It wouldn't matter if she was a high-school student, and it still doesn't matter when she's a 21 year old university student. Of course he likes here. Duh! And if it weren't her it could be any of dozens of others. Let's not kid ourselves here. The girl in question is irrelevant. He likes his students in a sexual way (Surprise!) and is asking permission from other people who he probably suspects have already broken this taboo to support him. Really, do ya think after that relationship inevitably ends he won't go after another one? Do ya think?

I fail to see anywhere in your argument what it is about this particular situation that is immoral.

Yes you failed to see it, which doesn't mean I didn't make it perfectly obvious. Please allow me to spell it out for you again. Teachers are entrusted to TEACH students, not go with them to KTV and cuddle with them and kiss them and then say that the girl is "driving [him] crazy" and he doesn't know how much longer he can hold out. Universities in California generally forbid relationships between teachers and students BECAUSE of the unequal power relationship. And then, in this instance, we have 23 year difference in age. I've worked with teachers who have dated their students, and in the case of one of them the students were all under aged (that was a training school). Bother were irresponsible teachers, and selfish. I'm sure you'd agree it's not appropriate to date under-aged students, yes? I thought so. But tack on one or two years and it's a perfectly consensual relationship between adults, is it. It's that black and white? Why, it could even hinge on a birthday.

Let's be realistic, we aren't talking about some great romance here, or some marriage of true minds. The OP didn't mention anything like that. He only said she turned him on.

The naked questions is: is it OK to sleep with my students. And the answer is, No, it's not. It's that simple. Anything else is bullshit middle-aged men are telling themselves because sleeping with girls half their age (which they could never do back home) is so titillating.

Given that he's already worked at the university a year before the situation has arisen it tends to weaken your arguement that he is simply shooting fish in a barrel or that he has no self control

No it doesn't. He has already within that year gone to KTV with students and kissed at least one of them there. That is inappropriate behavior for a teacher, and kissing a student shows no self control. In fact, he'd probably say something like, "I couldn't control myself."

To quote Karl Kraus "Christian morality prefers remorse to precede lust, and then lust not to follow". As Kraus was suggesting it hardly seems a realistic expectation to live like this .............

Argue this one: Go find a real woman outside of the university if you are worthy of having one, and leave the students alone. I'm not being a prude. I've had some hot steamy sex with willing Chinese women, and of course I am attracted to some of my students (and they to me), but I would NOT take advantage of students. Further, while they are attractive in their way, they are really too young for me. I would prefer someone who is actually a real adult, not just someone who has always lived with mommy up until a year ago and now lives in a dormitory at school but is technically by age an adult. I was there to protect them, in all ways, not take advantage of them.

Don't try and say I'm using Christian morals. Bullshit. I'm not Christian. I'm using logic, and maybe the Golden Rule ("Do on to others" or in this case "Do onto other's daughters"), and being very practical and reasonable. If you can't meet a woman outside the university there's probably something wrong with you, in which case you are definitely not doing your students any favors by dating them. If you CAN find a woman outside the university, than leave your students the hell alone.

Firstly young Chinese men and women are not as naive and inexperienced as they might first appear. An increasing number of them are sexually active in middle and high school. I can give you an example of a situation at a local high school near me where two students were found doing it in a teachers office. The teachers then searched the bags of several of their classmates mates and found them to be carrying condoms with them to school.

You'd also be wrong to believe that the girl in question doesn't know exactly what she is doing. It seems strange that earlier in the week you wrote about the power plays that occur between fts and Chinese management yet you seem unwilling to see the way this often works between Chinese women and men (both foreign & local). Who is say that the girl isn't looking for a visa, a credit card or just wants to experiment with a foreigner.

No you're right, foreign teachers aren't hired to bang as many students as possible. In this case though it hardly seems that the op is doing that. Instead he's waited until he's sure he likes the girl and she likes him and is then asking advice on the situation. Given that he's already worked at the university a year before the situation has arisen it tends to weaken your arguement that he is simply shooting fish in a barrel or that he has no self control.

I fail to see anywhere in your argument what it is about this particular situation that is immoral. Granted we all have different standards by which we live by but I can't personally see anything immoral with a situation where a man likes a woman and that feeling is reciprocated!

To quote Karl Kraus "Christian morality prefers remorse to precede lust, and then lust not to follow". As Kraus was suggesting it hardly seems a realistic expectation to live like this .............

But I fear that only Chinese females will read on with relish! In contrast, Western women will ignore this thread as nobody wants to know they are rated second-best in intimate matters!

What you really mean to say is that naive, vulnerable, accessible, and barely legal girls in the developing world are highly preferably to you than are mature, independent women, whatever their "race" or nationality in the so-called First World. Don't worry, there are a lot of shabby, third-rate specimens of Western men that would agree with you. Sometimes (OK, usually) I think the guys saying that all Western women are 2nd rate must be at least 3rd rate specimens themselves to utter any such inanity without the self-awareness to even notice the drivel dripping off their chins.

If it's wrong in the West it's still wrong. Don't think that because Chinese people smoke in restaurants and cut in line that it's not wrong for you to do it, for example. You know better, and you know the reasons why. And you also know why teachers are not supposed to try to sleep with students, theirs or someone else's. "Love" or "she wanted to" is no excuse in the West. One would look like a complete idiot playing that card.

Hi all. I have a bit of a dilemma to discuss. I am very attracted to a Chinese student at my university. She is 21 and is pretty and sexy. She is not my student, but the student of another FT at my university. I have been at this uni for one year.

I am 44, I know this might sound wrong, but I am smitten with this girl. We get along so well, and we enjoy dancing and singing so much. When I kiss and cuddle with her at KTV I feel alive, I can't get this sensational feeling from any West woman I have ever been with, including my ex-wife.

Everything you said is obvious, and also shows you do not belong at the university. You are not there to take 21 year old students to KTV and cuddle with them or kiss them. How would you like it if your 21 year old daughter we going out with a 44 year old Chinese teacher who was totally turned on by her, mostly because she was so much younger than him. Of course you are attracted to a 21 year old girl. It's not because she's Chinese, you noob, it's because she's 21. You act like this is some mystical miracle. No. It's just your hormones. You are "that guy," the older guy perving on the young students. What the hell do you think you are doing? You are there to teach them English, not try to get in their pants. Yes, the students will also go after the teacher. It's happened to me, too, but I made it very clear that I don't date students and word got out and it never became an issue after my first month of teaching. You, on the other hand, want to play the field.

You are not there to pray on students, and anyone who says otherwise is an asshole. Don't lose your Western standards when it comes to students. If you want to try to take advantage of naive young Chinese girls, who are actually more like high-school students than their western counterparts, you would be wise to meet them outside of the university.

"Teachers" who seek to sleep with students are a disgrace and an embarrassment.

Despite what other older male teachers on this forum might say, get your shit back in perspective and remember why you are there. If you are lonely, go meet a Chinese woman outside of the university.

To any blowhard who disagrees with me, I hope your 21 year old daughter hooks up with a foreign teacher in her university (probably one among many as he becomes a serial student banger. Oh, but he's not even here teacher, he just scoped her out while generally hitting on students.). Your role is to educate students, not fuck with their lives and their reputations just because it feels so good to be with such a young girl and makes you feel alive and all tingly inside.

I also don't care if some of the Chinese teachers do the same thing. Many also beat their wives. This is a no-brainer. Sadly, however, many foreign teachers will do what your are contemplating, find excuses, find camaraderie from other pathetic middle-aged men who pray on students, and behave like complete assholes overseas.

You can meet a real woman who is not entrusted to your care as a teacher (I don't care if she's another teacher's student) outside of the university if you think you are God's gift to Chinese women. If you can't meet one outside the university, then you are not much of a stud then, are you? You are just taking advantage of a situation where you have some power, and you have been implicitly trusted to not abuse it.

leave the little freshmen girls alone. Go outside and find yourself a real girlfriend.

“having said that i dont know how much longer i can...."
I think your minds made up.

word of advice
done be silly, put a condom on your willy.

@ Ricky:

I would say tread VERY carefully, if your FAO is vindictive you may not get a release letter, which could cause you problems if you want to change your job, or need a reference, or worst case, be fired. With the rise in nationalism in China over past years, better to be careful.

Ultimately, your decision, but a lot to think of either way.

Hello Ricky
You should be very careful indeed. At my last school there was a teacher, about the same age as you actually, who ended up so badly beaten up, that he lost one eye and will always walk with a limp, and now wears dentures, having pulled his natural ones with pliars. They also(his family) robbed him and trashed his flat. Your age will go against you somewhat, perhaps you are older than her Dad, and they will find that very insulting. I don't see it as a moral dilemma more a survival one. It's lust not love which has you in its grip. It's best you take a nice cold shower, Ricky. It's far better that you look in the direction of the Chinese teachers for a few one night stands.

Hi all. I have a bit of a dilemma to discuss. I am very attracted to a Chinese student at my university. She is 21 and is pretty and sexy. She is not my student, but the student of another FT at my university. I have been at this uni for one year.

I am 44, I know this might sound wrong, but I am smitten with this girl. We get along so well, and we enjoy dancing and singing so much. When I kiss and cuddle with her at KTV I feel alive, I can't get this sensational feeling from any West woman I have ever been with, including my ex-wife.

We are both very physically attracted to each other also. The sexual chemistry between us is magical, but so far we have resisted the urge to actually go through with the deed.

Having said that, I don't know if I can hold out much longer. This girl is driving me crazy, my hormones are on the verge of exploding. When I see her in her in her short skirt and frilly skimpy top with her long hair and long legs it drives me wild.

I just feel a bit guilty, because she is a student at my university. If she was not at my uni I would have had her in bed by now.

But then, we are both adults, why should I feel any guilt?

Some advice from more experienced foreign teachers would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ricky