I did post another response to one of your more recent posts before seeing this one so if you see my response please don't take things too personally. But I am happy to end this conversation. We can shake hands and leave the table as gentlemen. Have a nice day.

ASTF, I can see from what you've written that you might mean well enough. So I don't think I will escalate things any further. I am truly sorry if I made you think like I was on some high pedestal, but the fact is I only wanted to be straightforward with my points. I do not know you personally any better than you know me, and you have been civil enough compared to past posters who have disagreed with me that I will not assume the worst in any way whatsoever about where you're coming from.

I will say this and I do have to say this is touching more personal things: I grew up around enough Chinese people to know the family dynamics. My neighbor of mixed heritage has mixed Chinese blood. I have had enough experience going back to my childhood all the way to high school learning, understanding, laughing, and crying with them to know both the problems and the good, an anthropologist would call this "participant observation". In no way though am I speaking out of arrogance when I say this but perhaps sometimes the biggest critics are the ones who want to see you be the most successful. I knew even at a younger age what potential problems could come to China including the social strife that you see today. But being too open minded can mean you take in too much shyte and you end up believing official propaganda. I was taken aback by the abuse that I was put through at the places I worked at in China. But what's most disappointing is the fact that I see Chinese willingly making a choice to stand back and do nothing about so many things in their society. That saddens me and it makes me feel like I wasted so much time learning about them, but I am getting over that.

You I think mean well about not labeling such a big group of people and you want others to be more fair in their opinions. I can say to you that I respect how you feel and you can take my words with a pinch of salt if you must. But you can also take it to the bank that I will not back down from my beliefs, and if people want me to change they must show with their behavior that they're willing to admit mistakes and not have underhanded agendas. Unfortunately too many people I came across in China had that. Now I do not smoke, drink, or go to pink rooms so I have made an effort to avoid too many Chinese folks who might be more shady. I always try to give the benefit of the doubt, especially when it's making an opinion towards a whole country or culture.

Your personal experience while valid to a point can not be used to draw conclusions about all Chinese people, in any place at anytime. I'm going to make an educated guess that their have been visitors from foreign lands to America who might have got food poisoning in the local burger shop, got mugged on the subway or been abused by a gang of rednecks. If they were on this site crying about how awful the Americans are, how they are all dirty, violent hillbillies who are not fit to tie their shoes I'd imagine you'd feel justified in saying "hang on a minute, that's not right" and I would heartily support you.

Furthermore, I have seen no example from you of bad behavior that you could say is limited only to the Chinese. You talk about things like 'prying into other people's lives'. Are you seriously suggesting that in any office in the west that there wouldn't be some piece of gossip flying around the break room at 11am about who is diddling who? Look at the phone tapping scandal in the UK of late. Do you know why the tabloids tap celebs phones? Because we, the western public, love prying into the lives of others, We have entire industries dedicated to doing so!
I am not arguing that the things that happened to you weren't bad. If they had happened to me I'd be pretty peeved too but I wouldn't make the unfortunate mistake of transferring this anger towards every person who I perceive to be associated with those who have done me wrong. You can use big fancy moral words like compassion and empathy all you want but from your own perspective which you continue to make very clear to all and sundry it is hard to see how in your hate filled state you would be able to demonstrate them either.

I know for a fact that a majority of Chinese think like this as well

You would be surprised at how many ethnic Chinese people who have immigrated to other countries do not think about China on such favorable terms.

Haha it's amusing when you accuse me of being racist, you must feel that I'm using the old White Man's Burden argument and that I've always looked down on chinese people or wanted a reason to, nothing could be further from the truth!

I will spare the novel that is my life of how I've always wanted to visit and work in china and how I took it upon myself to learn chinese to the point of fluency, not that you care. It was my time working in china that turned my world upside down. The chinese are the most socio-economic obsessed group of people I have ever met! This goes hand in hand with racism which most of them practice as well! All of the ugly adjectives you accused me of being would be a much much better description towards the local Chinese.

The last training center I worked at, a Chinese American commented how embarrassing it was for him to make a salary that was 25 percent lower than that of a fellow white faced teacher who wasn't as good at teaching. Why don't you call him racist as well?

I want to treat everyone equally, I expect respectable and civil behavior in return. This does not include prying into someone's personal life for personal gain, dumping on others to promote a certain political agenda, promoting barbaric behavior such as child abuse and sexism, and a general disrespect for boundaries including taking other people's possessions without asking them. I have unfortunately experienced all of these living in china. I have also met a few good people who were both expats and chinese whom I still keep in contact with.

Your problem is you're not willing to step into other people's shoes and think even for a second that another person's life might be different from yours. What only matters are the things that you yourself have experienced. I know for a fact that a majority of Chinese think like this as well, which leads to tripe and nonsense replacing compassion and empathy. But you're amongst folks who think like you, so no wonder you're so grateful and comfortable. I will tell you it's got nothing to do with me. I prefer to spend time with people who are more reciprocal no matter what they look like.

You would be surprised at how many ethnic Chinese people who have immigrated to other countries do not think about China on such favorable terms. Having both read and spoken with some of these people you might be calling them the KKK or Aryan Nationiites! LOL!

And China is far more capitalist than the UK, or the USA is, at this moment in time.

How many trade unions are there in China?

How many free to the public libraries?

How many options for free education/training/night classes?

China is capitalism on steroids, compared to capitalism in any western country.

Naughty naughty dragonized!

I think the exact words you used were "the harsh reality of being home and being on the verge of applying for food stamps". Sounds a little bit stronger than "to consider" , doesn't it? Seems that twisting of words goes both ways eh?

Anyway I'm off to enjoy a nice dirty Chinese lunch. [edited]

Ahh yes the land of opportunity ....... Where any old tom, dick or harry could rise to power and put right all of the previous wrongs. Just remind me how much it costs to run as president of the US? Seems like only those who are part of and benefitting from the system could afford to run for president. Doesn't seem likely they'll to be making too many changes to that system, does it?

The world we live in is a capitalist world and capitalism doesn't deal in opportunity. In fact it is the polar opposite of opportunity.

If America falls, Europe falls. The West falls, we fall. - Oriana Fallaci

Her words ring more and more true as the days go by. I wonder where China would be today without western countries? Probably had nothing better to do, so she would've wiped herself out with all the infighting.

Look in the mirror, buddy.

Where else, apart from China, can you do a 'fulltime' job for a fulltime pay much higher than your Chinese colleagues while teaching just 12 hours a week and living in rent-free accommodation?

Very good question, fox - you've got the China-haters on the run!

Let Silverboy and those other posters who decry living and teaching in China answer the question you've asked. THEY CAN"T OFFER US ANY ALTERNATIVES! Best they shut up!

Foxy, like you I'm a qualified teacher in my own country and like you I choose to stay in china because the advantages of doing so outweigh the disadvantages.

I currently work less than 10 clock hours a week. Every year I teach for 32 weeks but get paid for 10months with a 2month 'travel allowance' for those 2months in the summer when we have nothing to do, plus the usual accommodation, etc. work here is a doddle and its leaves plenty of time to do many other things with my life.

I don't accept this idea that foreign teachers have to sell out or relinquish loyalty to their homeland to survive in this country. My timetable for classes arrives at the beginning of the term, I teach those classes to a decent standard and collect my pay on time and in full every month. I hear virtually nothing from the FAO or other Chinese staff who seem happy to just leave me to it. When I compare this to the hassles of working either in a school in a western country or for a private business who would almost certainly expect me to conform to some kind of corporate mentality then it's my belief that my current situation is just peachy!

Here's to a stress free, happy life where ever in this world you can find it!

[edited]. You pick out the things I wrote and twist my words around so as to suit your own agenda. I wouldn't be surprised if you were chinese, and I would be a little surprised if you were a real westerner although it wouldn't be so shocking.

Did you actually put in the time to read the rest of what I wrote?? I didn't apply for anything that was governmental aid related, I only said I considered it. I do not think being "able" to buy basic necessities means that is a good thing especially if you're going to lose years off of your life due to it being bad food. Also just because you live somewhere doesn't mean you can't criticize where you live, which is what you're apparently against.

It's obvious you only care about being right with yourself and finding faults in others to make yourself feel better. [edited]. The difference between me and you is I actually take into consideration the stance that others may take and I will point out the flaws for them if I disagree and give a detailed opinion. [edited].

Unless you are willing to show that you can actually think a little bit, I will stop paying attention to you.

The same to you in regards your user name, very accurate and concise!

You're not chinese so you don't have to worry about trivial things such as not trusting your own people

Yet in the post directly above this you claim that I

may just be a Chinese

You sound like a 50 cent'er

Which is it?

You contradict yourself at almost every turn! You make arguments based on things like women drivers in Saudi Arabia and feel that it somehow proves a point about Chinese and US society. You find examples (although you never actually post links to these stories) of little old ladies falling over and no one helping them and use them to try and define an entire society as being morally bankrupt. Anyone with an ounce of common sense will simply ignore the overarching and extreme points you make and the non-sensical way that you try and argue them.

Generally speaking, your response also gives a good example of someone who isn't good at thinking for himself/herself. Due to shortsightedness and a lack of common sense describing you is a pretty accurate statement.

In your 1st article, you argue that the west has higher unemployment, and therefore is worse off and not better. For this you provide a simple graph of pure empirical data void of any facts regarding culture (Do the "happily employed" work 16 hour shifts without breaks while making 200 rmb a month? Does the overall GDP reflect a number that was attained through ethical treatment of individuals? Can developed countries with a system of law providing fundamental human rights compete against a ruthless dictatorship that has no qualms about breaking the backs of hundreds of thousands of prisoners to fuel their cheap labor advantage?) and try to tell us that the end justifies the means.

In your 2nd argument, you provide a link to wikipedia which can be edited by anyone. You again link to a largely technical article which fails to give any accounts as to the history, socio-economic issues, cultural boundaries (a country that doesn't allow women to drive such as Saudi Arabia will surely have fewer traffic fatalities involving female drivers, so that means if I looked at a graph which measured the quantity of traffic fatalities involving female drivers, I am to assume that Saudi Females must be the BEST drivers it the world amongst women??), etc.

In your 3rd article you shoot yourself in the foot. You link to a Guardian article where the journalist is basically reporting what the chinese leaders are saying and in your own opinion you believe it to be true by the words you wrote on this board. Can you tell me where china gets all of her heavy industry technology? Can you tell me where china gets most of her light industrial technology? Do you know how much china relies on the import/export business to maintain her economy? You should know if you are a responsible westerner that if it wasn't for the west that developed the modern technologies including military technology that improved through wars china wouldn't be where she is today. Since China holds the most amount of USA debt are you going to tell me that it was china who paid for the Iraqi and Afghan wars? No you will not because you are incapable of thinking that far. I can tell you that in my opinion your precious guardian article is pure propaganda and china is shamelessly tooting her own horn.

You sound like a 50 cent'er with your opinions, what you're down on your luck so you've sold your soul to the chinese government to write propaganda pieces? Of course viewing enough discussion board responses on all types of forums you may just be a Chinese. Or are you the "Mancunian" poster trying to get back perceived lost ground? Whatever way you cut it you only make your stance seem weaker and weaker. Give it a rest.

And you can talk all day like you have a right to believe you're being "objective" with your comparisons. I have had a hard time getting a steady job since I have been back to the USA. Unlike you I though I don't think my own opinion is the end of all that is, and despite the harsh reality of being home and being on the verge of applying for food stamps I still appreciate that fact that I have not gone insane due to being around real friends and being in a more cultured environment. You are just trying to justify running away from your problems and projecting your own helplessness onto society. I can take the punishment that life throws at me no matter where I go and still keep my spirits up while seeing the big picture, unlike you which probably comes down to a character thing.

I will bet the house that in china you are more likely to get your wallet stolen, your property damaged, and live a shorter life due to the filthy environment. The news links you have posted is old news and you are only exposing your own helplessness by posting them. I find it ironic these days that white folks in western countries want to run off to where their rich brethren invested (follow the money, in other words) while newer immigrants from 3rd world countries adopt the traditions, culture, and values of their respective adopted countries and yet you still want to keep that part of your western identity (the ugly part) of "me first". This goes back to the point I made in some earlier posts on how China's "culture" may not have always been chinese.

There is only a select few group of people who are in control of things in the world of money, and they could not be any happier with the world filled with imbeciles like you who hate their own country as well as their own brethren. I worked for example in Saudi Arabia and the people there showed more genuine kindness than the folks I met in china. That will not take away how I feel about their culture and many of their vices. I could work in a place like china for 10 years and it still wouldn't change my opinion, that's because I have also worked in other developing countries as well and I have spoken in extensive length with the local folks. I know how to think critically and use comparing and contrasting. That includes my own experiences as well as the experiences of societies in general. You obviously don't have that.

If you can read and write chinese as well as knowing how to input chinese then go on google and baidu.com and search for news in china about old people falling down and nobody helping them. I read on some chinese news that in some parts of shanghai that old people in ill health will purposefully hang around expat heavy populations so if they have an accident there will be people around to give them a hand. You're not chinese so you don't have to worry about trivial things such as not trusting your own people to help you. Of course, I doubt you ever want to be chinese when the game is so rigged in your favor.

Expats who are spoiled rotten and feel so entitled like you should not be trusted! I would take a grain of salt for every expat who wants to defend a country that practiced ritual physical mutilation of their women for over 1,000 years with the feet as suddenly being better and equal to any western country after a mere few dozen years of development!

If I met you in real life, I would have walked away by now and not wasted any more time with your view of things because they hold no value. But since this is a public board it isn't surprising to see folks who write what you've written, and I just have to deal with it. You sound like what left wingers would call a "moderate" wumaodang (50 cent brigadier). While you may acknowledge the seeming existence of an "opposing" viewpoint you do not define correctly what it's really made of, and until you get out of your self medicating "bright sided" way of seeing things you'll continue to be blind to this and we'll continue to disagree. And NO, I will not come back to china to try and change myself. I do think that your recent posts especially the one I am responding to right now serve as a good example for newbies to look at on what NOT to become after working in china for a while.

I do have to finish and say that my last post was meant as a end to the discussion of this topic between me and you. I do not tolerate folks who have no boundaries AND always want to prove themselves as being more right than you over every matter discussed very well. But hey I that's just one of the reasons why I left China in the first place.

the west still has the best job opportunities

Not sure the people of Spain or Greece would agree with you on that one ( 1in 4 unemployed), Europe as a whole with 12% unemployment and the US with 8% unemployment.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&language=en&pcode=teilm020&tableSelection=1&plugin=1

any of the safest western neighborhoods trumps the safest chinese neighborhoods hands down

Yet you're far more likely to be murdered walking down an American street than a Chinese one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Any investment with international credibility that goes into a 3rd world country starts in the west.

When are the Americans going to wake up and realize that in the last decade china has taken a large slice of Africa, Asia and South American while the yanks have been invested in a personal vendetta against the Arab world. Of course the Chinese have managed to do all this without going to war!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/23/china-africa-trade-record-transform

I would NOT be proud about telling my kid that his/her country is the "cheap labor" factory of the world.

Is that what you think chinese parents go home to tell their kids? Even if it were true, is being the factory of the world that bad a thing? It was only 200 hundred years ago that Britain manufactured vast amounts of cotton products to be sold around the globe. It's economy has developed since as has china's. there is no 'bottom line', only change!

You don't have to love China and hate the West to see what you write is very biased. Perhaps you are suffering yet again from the 'grass is greener' syndrome that you admit to of having had prior to arriving in china, only this time you're looking back at the other side of the valley!

It just behooves me when I read crap like this. I myself have lived in dangerous neighborhoods in my life in the west and I have been harassed and threatened. I was bullied like hell in the USA when I was younger due to low self esteem and constantly being the "new" kid on the block since my family was moving around a lot. I also used to buy into the notion that china is "greener" and that this country was going to be more civilized and richer and have more opportunities and yada yada yada. That is until I actually worked, lived, and experienced the quality of people who live there and was able to make a fair comparison.

Here's the bottom line: In the free market world that we live in, the west still has the best overall education, the best job opportunities, the best systems of law, and the best business opportunities, and any of the safest western neighborhoods trumps the safest chinese neighborhoods hands down. Any investment with international credibility that goes into a 3rd world country starts in the west. I read in an Midwest American newspaper recently about the chinese bringing in an extra dozen or so jobs to the states due to some rich chinese businessmen investing. Well American jobs (millions of them) going to china was yesterday's news. What took you guys so freaking long, man? I thought we lived in a world of altruism and reciprocity...hahahaha. I guess it depends on competence too, doesn't it?

I don't know about you, but I would NOT be proud about telling my kid that his/her country is the "cheap labor" factory of the world. Sure the lack of freedom in china can mean that everything is controlled as much as possible which makes some folks feel more secure. I say it sucks to be most of you. I also will finish by adding that most of the expats who I have met overseas that talk like this either: 1. Cannot understand chinese very well so they live in a blissfully ignorant state of mind. 2. Benefited directly from the chinese system from some backhanded, corrupt way of doing business in each of their own respective lives. The former don't know what they're talking about even if they have lived in china for a long time (I have spoken with folks who lived on Canal Street which is Chinatown in New York City all their lives and still can't speak passable English). The latter obviously have no trouble lying and beating the same drum over and over and over again.

Of course, the 3rd option in this case would be that we have been arguing with people who hate the West immensely and want nothing more than to see its demise, and they will do anything possible to make that happen. Even if it's pretending to be an "expat" who has "lived" or "worked" in china for a long time.

I try to ignore posts like these but knowing how I was mislead and had my logic scrambled by statements such as these in the past I just feel like the person who makes these types of comments operates more on emotional whims rather than empirical logic.

Password:

Hello, Happy forthcoming New Year to you Dragonized.

You seem to be well-versed on all the ills of China and its people, those both living in China, and elsewhere. I am sure that you are right about many of those ills; maybe, I have never felt the need to build up the type of knowledge in detail that you have appeared to have acquired; you must have worked very hard at it.

However, I don't really think I have made myself clear, so, I'll now try. When I am in China, I can't cloud my thoughts with anything much beyond, how is China for me and for other Western people? (I will confirm that I believe life is not too good for many of it's own people and also many other non-native English speaker FT's(All of whom should not be teaching English but that's down to the Chinese, so it is not a concern for me) I am bound to say that for the average Westerner working in China, life is very good, and also considerably safer than back home(on the dole). You were here for a long while yourself, yes? Why did you endure it?

There are quite a few FT's whose experience in China, hasn't been a happy one. One of their reactions seems to be the reverse of trying to make things happier and to actively donate all their waking hours into finding any possible wrong in the Chinese as they can collate. It might be more sensible if we stick to, how is China for the FT, instead of concerning oneself in a spectrum of politics and everything else which is not for the FT oral English teacher to sort out; ask Mr Obama to do that?

Most FT's I have met have been very happy working in China, and many many of those many, have expressed a dread of the day when they would have to return to the West.

Exposing Western children to an alien culture and inferior way of thinking is a form of child abuse IMO.

It can but need not be the case. In our own process of socialisation, we have grown up in societies that we were born into and were unable to select beforehand. As we grow up in that respective environment, we will be formed according to that environment, and when we grow older, we all develop our own mind in reaction to that environment and eventually leave or work for changes if we have objections to it in one way or another. It is my personal experience - being born into a communist oppressive system, I was socialised by it but later developed traits of severe resistance to what it actually was; I was jailed for that and managed to escape, becoming a refugee in a foreign land. Today, I am a free person and enjoy life. Ergo, the system which I was born into by chance did not make me a communist, and I developed in a very different way. Does this prove my point?

I think it goes a very long way indeed to prove your point. In the same way that you had the desire to escape an evil regime, I expect that that Canadian family do not think that the pornographic, violent West, where you can't even walk down the streets of an English town, like Colchester(a garrison town) without the likelyhood of being beaten to a pulp by our brave lads, as the pubs tip out, is a good safe place for a child. Or you are a 68 year old organist, and you get brutally murdered as you make your way to play at the Midnight Mass on Christmas Day(might have been Eve) No, your child will be a lot safer on the streets of China, than on the streets of England; or for that matter those of Canada, I dare say. Needless to say, violence can occur anywhere, even in a normally peaceful country like China, but in the West, the odds of coming a cropper are considerably more stacked against you. Well said, Turnoi.