Is being a minority such a bad thing?
Is going against the flow when you know or at least believe that what others are saying is wrong such a bad thing?
Can you really have a productive forum without differing opinions?
Can you really have a productive society at large without differing opinions?

If you had to answer 'yes' to all these questions San Migs then i'd suggest that means you enjoy a good bit of grovelling. Now, if i could only think of some clever, witty term perhaps in conjunction with an animal to describe a person who enjoys a good grovel...............
If you can think of one please let me know!

Again, I am not in China, nor England.

Isn't your balcony and imported chilled chemicals keeping you busy?

You do have a penchant for playing the victim when things aren't going your way.

Perhaps because you yourself are an aggressive poster who likes to force people into a corner.

His opinion has as much validity as yours, despite your age, experience or wealth.

Perhaps you can be more specific dragonized. Where on this topic about the bureacratic procedures and options for foreigners having children and the nationality of those children have I provided a strawman argument? What is the scam that I'm playing?

It seems that I've provided you with plenty of personal experience based on decisions that I have had to make in regards to having a child while living in china. Even if you think my personal experience on the matter is irrelevant I've also provided you with links to the information page of the British embassy that verifies what I've said. Is this information not relevant? Is the British embassy providing strawman arguments or are they involved in some scam to hoodwink you and San migs?

In the interest of fairness I did try to find the equivalent information on the US embassy site about a child being born in china to one US citizen and one Chinese citizen but it is not there. I can only speculate that this is because while the US does recognize the right to dual nationality it does not encourage it. Here is a passage from the US department of State

The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

You clearly show an interest or else you would not need to respond, and that interest is one of covering up more important issues to talk about and focus on less important, superficial things which will make yourself look better.

If you'd like to post about something else then by all means start a new thread. If I feel it's some I'd like to talk about then I will. I'm sorry if this topic bores you and that you don't have much to contribute but it seems that you are driving this thread along just as much as I am.

Because I can give better information

You've provided an example of something that happened to a friend of yours 24years ago. As I stated before, I have taken this example at face value. Perhaps it is of use to the discussion. I asked you to provide more details regarding how your friend managed to get their child onto a passport without things like a birth certificate which you claimed he didn't have. You decided to ignore that question. I don't think you can really claim that you've provided 'better' information. Perhaps limited, incomplete or anecdotal would be a more accurate description.

your best leverage is that of personal attacks on others? I have held back from calling you names with my recent posts and tried to talk to you on an equal level. What have you done except start calling people more names and use your own dirty methods as justification

You do have a penchant for playing the victim when things aren't going your way. If my dirty methods are of providing information based on genuine, recent experience of these bureacratic procedures and backing it up evidence from government institutions then I guess yes, I'm guilty of that. That you keep denying these things and making yourself look silly is not my fault.

Where is the inaccuracy on my part? I can only respond to what is written.

San migs told me I didn't have the 'right' to post

He then told me you do have the 'right' to post

He contradicts himself and you stick up for him.

I think that you are misleading others with your self absorbed pre-disposition at assuming your own experience is the only one that should be taken into account for. I do not plan on having a family in China, does that mean what I say is worth less than what you have said? I have shared my own thoughts regarding personal experiences as well as providing a perspective that you cannot see due to your own limited experiences. You can stop fawning over your own ideas as being "great". They are not and you do not bring anything of value to the table.

He stated he can read your posts whenever he likes and respond in however a manner he likes, that is all. You do not have a right to tell others to not respond. You post tripe on here and give inaccurate statements aboiut others, so you deserve to be countered. For you to constantly find the need to twist things around to what others say to you shows that [edited]

I mean you don't live or work in china, You are not planning to start a relationship and have a child in china and you generally dislike most things about china. It's easy to see that there is very little of what I write that would be of interest to you and yet you continue to read it and post against me. What does that say about you?

What I choose to do personally with my life does not affect how I feel about what you have posted. I feel that you have shown how some people may feel about China, and I am merely showing how others have felt after working and living there. I feel that it is important to show that china is not all roses and daisies. You have not shown an inability to be critical towards yourself and acknowledge both sides of an argument as containing legitimate elements. Instead if any posters who have gone against you in previous arguments gives even a remote hint of showing what you have said as possibly containing credible things you immediately jump on that (like a sniggering hyena :)) as possibly showing them to be silly or hypocritical. You cannot see 2 sides to a discussion, period. I can talk about anything I want on this board and that includes responding to your posts. It says more about you than me with the idea that you can expect other people to not respond to you unless they want to risk personal insults coming from your end of the argument.

You do not show an ability to exercise fair reasoning. Your ideas about China are one sided and over idealistic. People who follow your "advice" will put themselves at risk for not knowing enough about the character of local chinese people. Most importantly you cannot seem to provide a strong ground as to why your own ideas can stand on their own, instead you need to resort to personal attacks and name calling along with the pathetic behavior of following up the thread of what others who have disagreed with me have had to say to try and bury my credibility. It is plain to see that you would like nothing more than to see me go away, permanently. Well if you wanted to accomplish something like that maybe you could act a little bit more mature and maybe put up a more inclusive front. That way your own ideas can be more accepted.

Me and drags have more right as we are established posters who have contributed a lot. Just what have you contributed?

That's interesting you seem to have changed your tune in regards the right to post. Please check your own post on the subject.

http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/forum/index.pl?read=81026

Dragonized, I am going to have the good grace to take the example of your friend from 24 years ago at face value. This is not something you've generally afforded me with your constant questioning of my motives for posting.

I would still ask the question how did the child get onto any passport without the official documentation that you claim they didn't have but is generally needed in these circumstances e.g. Birth certificate? Seeing as this incident happened a long time ago to a third party then if you don't know just say so.

Furthermore, traveling to the foreign country on a visitation/tourist visa with the intention to then switch nationailities was one of examples I gave in my previous post. You seem to want to pick an argument regardless of what I write!

Many of the issues I have brought up that you disagreed with stemmed from experience as a child too, and as a child how long ago was that? People do speak differently to a child than they would an adult, and what they told you may not have anything to do with the topic discussed on hand.

Do you need glasses?

I didn't write anything about my experiences of BEING a child. So keen you are to start your pseduo psychology you've completely mis-read my post!

If you think that my experience of HAVING a child is irrelevant then so be it. I'm sure that there are others who would say that it is useful.
I'm sure we've been over the whole you not thinking I have any to offer scenario before and I'm sure you're probably right! I mean you don't live or work in china, You are not planning to start a relationship and have a child in china and you generally dislike most things about china. It's easy to see that there is very little of what I write that would be of interest to you and yet you continue to read it and post against me. What does that say about you?

that he had the guy fired over the trivial reason that he wouldn't smoke or drink with fellow colleagues and local government officials. Our true characters are exposed when there is a chance a fantasy we held on to can be popped, eh?

That just goes to show the black hearted pettiness that one can expect to deal with. Anyone who stands out in anyway has to be cut down. If this can happen to overseas born chinese, what chance have foreigners with no chinese ancestry got?

o you're saying that he travelled out of china without an exit permit and passport.

Actually, he and his mother were on the same passport together, on a visitation visa because his father was studying at an American University. They obtained permanent residence through political amnesty due to going to the USA before 1989, which was when *something* happened in China. Not all folks who go from China to a more developed country is an illegal. You are jumping to conclusions based on your own ignorance.

Yet here you are again squirming and trying to paint a different picture.

No more "squirming" than a person who can't live without attacking other people's characters when his own baseless ideas are questioned, such as you!

Mine is from personal experience of having a child and having to consider these issues very seriously. It also comes from days having spent researching the topic, speaking to representatives of the embassy and seeking legal advice.

Many of the issues I have brought up that you disagreed with stemmed from experience as a child too, and as a child how long ago was that? People do speak differently to a child than they would an adult, and what they told you may not have anything to do with the topic discussed on hand.

To me, you have nothing valuable to say or give anyway. You are just as inclined to attack another person's character when you are asked to give evidence on things as you are to actually back up what you say. If you want to believe something as they say, you'll find a reason to believe it. You remind me of some older teachers I met in China who were set in their prejudices one way or the other. In fact at DOS at one of the chain schools was so afraid of dealing with an Asian American who grew up in a bi-cultural environment (1st generation immigrant in the house, American environment outside the house) that he had the guy fired over the trivial reason that he wouldn't smoke or drink with fellow colleagues and local government officials. Our true characters are exposed when there is a chance a fantasy we held on to can be popped, eh?

I don't even understand the question. Are you questioning my grammar or are we still talking about nationality?

You can't answer his point, so it is you who is using circular logic.

He is right about the minorities.

Mine is from personal experience of having a child and having to consider these issues very seriously. It also comes from days having spent researching the topic, speaking to representatives of the embassy and seeking legal advice.

Your comments come from at best (and by your own admission) hear say.

It has nothing to do with your friend being American. In terms of nationality in china you are either Chinese or you are not i.e. no dual nationality. If you were born in china to at least one Chinese parent then legally speaking you will be required to become a Chinese citizen.

You seem to want to run in circles again on this topic so I'll just point you to the post I've already made

http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/forum/index.pl?read=81265

If one of the married couple are of Chinese citizenship and that couple have a child in China then that child is automatically considered to be of Chinese heritage whether the couple would like it to be or not.

There can be a huge difference in perception with merely having citizenship and being considered "of Chinese heritage". There was a post on here a couple of years back of how the kid of an Expat Teacher/Native Chinese woman was treated with suspicion by the parents of his classmates for looking different. This is an ongoing problem of discrimination in China. At a public school I have worked there is a special class specifically for out of province students of Uighur lineage. They pretty much stick within their own ethnic makeup and do not usually mingle with their fellow Han classmates. Although personal choice can be included in this one cannot disregard the fact that being in such a geographically different environment such as Southeast China can have an impact on how the local students would act towards kids who are not from the area. Do not make things sound so simple.

Perhaps because in the eyes of the PRC, you are the perpetual foreigner. Let's have a look what qualifies you to Chinese citizenship or even 2 year working visas.

Learnt Chinese? No.
Married a Chinese partner?No.
Taught in China for 10 years?No.

Even those who have invested or donated an amount deemed notable, are only entitled to a green card.

It seems like even when you play by the rules so to speak, you only end up finding out the rules are just "rules" to string you along until you can be rejected.

In the eyes of the PRC, you have a western passport, even if you have married a chinese woman and had kids there, your kids are not Chinese and you are still a foreigner. Whether this will change, remains to be seen.

You are definitely still a foreigner, your kids may have the technical option of remaining citizens of China, but in the long run they are probably better off choosing the Western Country citizenship (USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and any Western European/Germanic Country). Unless your Chinese wife is a well connected member of the local elite society (money, power, and fame all rolled into one together) it is highly doubtful your kids would have a better quality life in the long run, barring World War 3 happening.

The scenario you have put forward is that the child was born in the PRC with a Chinese parent.

Not exactly. I do know if said child born to a foreign man and chinese wife gets foreign mans home country passport, chinese nationality is no longer an option. Not sure for the uk though.

Like you, I have read this book as well regarding the unethical practices of western corporations and the CIA. However you need to understand that it takes two to tango. As the old saying in Chinese goes, "Cang ying bu ding wu feng de dan"; "A fly will not sting an egg that is not cracked." As much as there is greed on the foreign businessmen who come to china and elsewhere, there are just as many eager government officials and native business folks who want the western technology. The local people enable the dictatorships by not doing anything to change the respective societies that they live in. Entities like the CIA exist in every country, and in China they are more invested into not allowing their own to exercise basic human rights.

In the west, there are plenty of people willing to protest and make their opinions known and shared with regards to taking a stand against the likes of Goldman Sachs, Wall Street, and Big Government policies in general. It all starts from the individual, and where the roots of western avarice are borne is also where the fiercest resistance against western vice on a civilian level. In China as well as many other developing countries the people are not as inclined to stand out. That can be a problem.

Dual nationality. Yes, my late mother had it. She was German. My late father was Scottish, and I was born in (Western) Germany. I was told by my mother that I could get both too, but I never cared about that. She thought it was good to have it - maybe for her that was true, but I doubt it would have benefited me. I'd say this, it's better for laowai in China to retain their foreign nationality. If you had it converted to Chinese nationality, you couldn't expect to visit your homeland without a visa to allow you to do so, which is not subject to automatic issuance. There are other good reasons for retaining your foreign nationality in the PRC. It can be used to diddle the system re teaching illegally if you've a mind to do do...LOL!! You can have the best of both worlds if you've a Chinese spouse, and can be unshackled and less controlled. Though all governments are kinda control freaks, those with grey matter can dupe them!

It is not just the Chinese doing dirty business around the world. If you read "The Confessions of Economic Hitman" by John Perkins it details how the U.S. government forced Latin American governments into getting millions and billions in loans impoverishing whole countries. If the leader agrees to these loans they would be rich by enslaving the people. If they did not, the CIA would get in there and forment a revolution. One only has to read about Miguel Allende in Chile and how he was ousted in favor of Pinochet, or the United Fruit Company and the CIA backed coup of 1954 in Guatemala. This list is endless.

The Chinese force, lie, and manipulate through words. But at the end of the day, they could have gone home and not build anything in China going somewhere else. I've read of foreign companies just packing up and going home when the Chinese wanted to steal their technology. But the US and Europe forced through their economic programs with the threat of force. At least the Chinese wait you out and you can always leave.

Really?

Well that is not what I have heard or seen with my own eyes?

China does not recognize dual nationality. If say born in chinese mixed baby gets a UK passport, are you certain they can still be classed as a national of the PRC?

This is interesting; what about if the couple's child is born in the West, the mother still carrying a Chinese passport; they then, the three of them, return to China; would they [the Chinese authorities] consider the child as theirs?

Well, the child couldn't cross borders without a passport. So, he (or she) would need to apply for a British passport first, and will automatically get it, making him British. That's the way I'd analyze the situation, but am I right?

I have a friend who is Half Chinese, Half Jamaican and he is automatically considered a laowai by his local chinese friends. There was a TV Show in China which was I think China Idol that specifically "set aside" a talented singer of mixed Chinese/African lineage. The girl was called "Chocolate Girl" on public tv by one of the hosts of the show. Now if that's not discriminating behavior I don't know what is. The girl said herself in an interview that she is treated differently from her fellow classmates.

Now many local Chinese may accept you for who you are, but fundamentally a society that mistrusts even other fellow chinese for being "wai di ren" (non-local) cannot be counted on for too much acceptance of folks with physically non-chinese features.

In the eyes of the PRC, you have a western passport, even if you have married a chinese woman and had kids there, your kids are not Chinese and you are still a foreigner. Whether this will change, remains to be seen.

I can't see it changing. As you say, you are the perpetual foreigner! You will never be accepted. That's why I said before that gregarious people should avoid China. China's only ok as a place to stsy year after year for weird westerners and loners.

I suggest you don't waste your time there. Even if you dislike teaching, it's still within your compass to make good money with little effort in the PRC.

Your point is valid and worthy of consideration. However the fly in the ointment is that China will not pay food stamps if you are unemployed, which he could be eligible for in the states. Whether 5,500 rmb, for example, can be considered good money and for little effort (dealing with a racist FAO, annoying students, grim winters in a cold apartment, many variables) will differ on each person and how adaptable they are. Not everyones situation will be the same. FT's salary is absolutely nothing outside of china, it is just monopoly money. For someone who has a pension like yourself however it is a different ball game. I would still say dragonised could earn more in HK or Taiwan, and be rewarded for his abilities far more there.

I think you can give it a rest with the finding work in china part. You yourself can learn to respect other people's opinions and leave them well enough alone. If I may remind you myself, in the west there are still boundaries between folks and the rules of interaction dictate that one behave accordingly.

You have again chose to patronize me on how I should behave towards the chinese. I am suspecting that on some level you feel that me and perhaps others posters on here did not treat the local Chinese fairly enough when we were here the last time. You do not know me personally, never met the folks I worked with, nor do you know how good my Chinese language ability really is to make this judgement. I have held back from insulting you and I have told you I am trying to be fair minded, so don't push it because it's things like the way you have just spoken to me that will make me change my mind on how I feel about you as a person.

I know that one FT's family didn't have the wherewithal to make such a purchase, and his body was flogged to medical research. The hospital and its Mortuary have their costs to cover ,you see. I suppose eventually ashes are flushed down the drain...but not all at once.

Interesting! Just to add that ashes to 'Homeland' would be a much cheaper alternative than a body in a bodybag to there;and the latter is much more expensive than the cost of a single air ticket!The thing is, if you've a Western passport, the Authorities here might insist on repatriating what's left of you, even though you're related by marriage to a Chinese national.

You're obviously a clever bloke - what you have written is excellent stuff both in its construction and its content. If you can't get a decent job in the States, I suggest you don't waste your time there. Even if you dislike teaching, it's still within your compass to make good money with little effort in the PRC.

My word, Dragonised, extremely well-written but I rather think that you have too much time on your hands. A word to the wise, old chum ; stick that oar in the water and break away from the doldrums-find yourself another position in China. Just try and do things differently this time; watch your p's and q's, and try smiling at the Chinese. Now, am I right or am I right?

San Migs, I hope this isn't your last post.

I want to share something with you. A week back when I was still having the disagreement with Mancunian and to a lesser degree with ASTF I made a draft of a response towards both of them. However I wanted to make sure that I could put all of my thoughts down in coherent fashion and I wasn't going to just post before not thinking this over because it's an issue I feel strongly about. However by the time I was finished with the draft I had already decided to come to a disagreement with both of those posters in a courtly manner as I didn't feel that we were necessarily too far apart with our views (as much as I thought in the beginning).

I have Italicized the response. I do not want to give Mancunian or ASTF the idea that I am continuing the old argument or starting a new one. I merely wanted to share some thought about this as it is a broad topic. But I think San Migs you would enjoy it the most. Here goes:

I would never care to compare anything if I didn’t feel like it could possibly get better. I criticize something if there is an emotional attachment. If one the other hand someone was ripping off the system wherever they were living I don’t think they would want to hear any criticisms because it would jeopardize their state of living. You seem to tie in your wealth and lifestyle to how good China has it for you. But for me and others who do not care about living like this we know that China and the Chinese are not going around the world making it a better place to live in. At home in the United States of America I see at my local supermarkets older Chinese who have not worked in the USA for a day in their lives but getting governmental aid in the form of food stamps and paying for food like this. Many “able bodied” young Chinese women who used certain leverage also came to the states as well as Canada with unexplained wealth that they use to purchase houses with and there are cases of these women strutting Louis Vuitton bags walking into the local unemployment agency asking for welfare benefits. A Chinese American woman I know personally admitted to me recently back when she wasn’t a naturalized citizen yet that she used to collect unemployment for quite a while and work as a babysitter on the side and not pay any tax with this job. Many Chinese who are working illegally in the states as well as Canada also do this. You see these types of people drain the economic system and contribute nothing of value back, so in the English language we call them LEECHES.

Now, being myself in the 18 – 35 single male demographic range, I know that unless I am making a huge salary that is in the upper class white collar area my age and gender basically GUARANTEES that I am paying more taxes to Uncle Sam than ANY OTHER demographics. All of the jobs I have held since I went back to the states guarantees that I will be paying taxes, and with the commission only sales jobs I am currently holding due to the 1099 Independent Contractor status every business I close I will be paying the HIGHEST tax rate possible. It is a fact that I am paying for all of these things that some people feel entitled to. I do try and comfort myself by thinking that these folks are the bottom of the barrel and they provide the perfect anti-model of how not to act like a responsible citizen, and they are certainly no worse than say …a gentleman who came back with a foreign woman that he married along with a kid or two and because he can’t find a good job he collects welfare on behalf of his kids, at least in name. Not that I’m implying anyone posting on here has done this before. After all if they didn’t go back to Britain, America, or Canada then at least that’s credit on their behalf.

So now how is it that you somehow find it sensible and even intelligent (you and the “asdf” poster) to try and incriminate me, shame me, and make me feel as if I shouldn’t even dare open my mouth for questioning the integrity of the modern society of China? You basically implied that thinking about such things makes me lose integrity. I think you need to go back and re-read your western history and find out how in fact societal tolerance of opposing viewpoints led to real progress. What’s even more ridiculous is that you are buying into the notion that the Chinese have more intelligence for no other reason that they are Chinese and they are in your words the “salt of the earth”, “wonderful”, and “generous” when you have not provided ample evidence on ANY of these fancy adjectives. What entitles the Chinese to just go abroad and mooch off of the host system wherever they’re at and not only should a local citizen that is me pay for it but also be happy about doing this without a word out of my mouth.

You complain and lecture to me how I shouldn’t generalize and categorize the whole country, the whole culture, the whole people but you use the exact same rule of logic when you refute my claims and YOU do not give a good reason as to why you are in a better position to abuse this logic for no other reason than the fact that it is you that is speaking, so therefore you are right. Clearly a statement like “Chinese women are the salt of the earth” is such an absurd generalization that it can be applied to any demographic. Why not talk about African women, Korean women, Japanese women, or other groups of women like this? You wouldn’t say this unless you were careless or you are so arrogant that you can just throw whatever thing you want into a discussion. Going back to Silverboy’s experience on QQ Zone he clearly stated details and gave credible information. You just want to cover up anything negative tied in with any Chinese entity by stereotyping ANYTHING Western as being worse without providing any evidence. Your recent remarks about Facebook and Twitter were good examples. For your information people who post stupid things on Facebook and Twitter get punished in real life with loss of employment, incarceration, and public humiliation. Have you tried to research if the QQ Zone boy who posted tripe about Silverboy got caught? Have you contacted Silverboy and asked who this person even is?

I will say this to any expat who is thinking about or is already working in China: You should not be made to feel that you need to bow down, be too grateful, or to be respectful of the Chinese just because you’re working in china. Anybody who is working in China is contracted for their services and skills that they possess. You give your time and effort and the Chinese company pays you for your services, it’s as simple as that. Any expat who is already there needs to know that you do not owe anything to anybody as long as you are doing your job. If I stooped even a little bit to your level of thinking I should say that as western foreigners we go to china because we are really following the capital that was taken away from our own respective countries and so we go there to take back a little of what belongs to us in the first place. As another poster has said on this board: Foreigners in China owe the Chinese nothing! A country that expect all expats to register at the local police station within 24 -72 hours after arriving in the country as well as expecting release letters from your most recent former employer if you are switching jobs within China means that the powers that be views every foreigner as a possible Enemy Combatant to keep tabs on at all times. Recently while reading a book on Eastern Philosophy a citation from Sun Tzu’s The Art of War, “When combating the enemy, it is best to take the fight to their land” was used and I couldn’t help but feel that the people who came up with this would know what it meant the best, hence the fear of outsiders and the excessive control.

Can we all take a step back and look at our own respective behaviors for one minute? We have disagreed, yes. But we all have showed the ability to be mutually respectful towards one another, be empathetic enough to acknowledge one another's responses, and we were able to end the disagreements on civil terms without hating each others' guts. I think at the end of the day posters like Foxy, Mancunian, and maybe ASTF speak out of the fact that China provided them employment and a roof over their heads, and they are expressing themselves on some point of gratitude. Now I'm not going to let go of the possibility that some of the posters have been made to feel guilty for some reason and that is another possible reason why they have disagreed with me and with others posters like Silverboy. But at the end of the day Gratitude and Guilt are things that are possessed by more virtuous individuals, and any ideas/statements formed on those things shouldn't be disregarded. However at the same time I must state IMO that while there are Americans and Canadians of Chinese ancestry who show their gratitude towards their respective countries of citizenship, there are plenty who, having acquired green cards and citizenship in a different country who don't! This is why we live, observe, and come to our conclusions.

We can talk about this all day, but I want to ask anyone and everyone who has posted on here: Have you seen any major Chinese media or corporations or popular discussion forums even bring up the topic on the plight of expats and the crappy working conditions they are put through? Have we heard any famous Chinese speak out on behalf for the rights of expats working in China? No we haven't. I think one female expat teacher I met last year said it best to me: In China foreign teachers are seen as migrant workers, albeit ones making a higher salary than Chinese migrant workers but still looked down upon nonetheless as people with low status.

I would like to also state that overseas Chinese Language Media that isn't run by Taiwanese folks predominantly leer towards a pro-Chinese, pro-Communist government paradigm. These media outlets are freely allowed to run anywhere in Canada and the USA. The Chinese Flag is freely flown in Manhattan in New York City. Folks who live in North America can freely access tudou.com, youku.com, 56.com, and other youtube-like media entities. Ren-ren is also of course freely accessible. People may also freely talk shyte about the USA and Canada however they want even if they are living there without worrying too much about consequences like being taken in the middle of the night and "disappeared". Come to China and try flying an American flag anywhere outside. I do not need to repeat Facebook and youtube.

If Chinese people immigrate to a western country and can freely enjoy the benefits of governmental aid such as welfare, food stamps, and general charity from their adopted societies while talking freely about how the USA and Canada is this and that; Western countries aren't as good as China because of this and that then any expat living and working in China can and should freely criticize without having to worry about being labeled as feeling superior. After all expats aren't entitled to any government benefits from the Chinese government, so it is not exactly an even trade. As a matter of fact, criticizing on a discussion board is kind of a last resort as there really isn't any outlet in China for expats to go to.

While expats follow a set of rules and ethics and debate over the logic of judging certain groups of people, there are plenty of the same people who will continue to take and take more from the countries that they go to without having contributed a dime to the systems they are living in. While expats show concern over equality and altruism and talk about how one should not feel superior, there are folks from that defended category who do not care about anyone's opinions on right or wrong and will only continue to live to get ahead of everyone else.

Anyone who thinks I have an agenda to show people up and prove superiority is misunderstanding my point. I say some places are better than others not because I am racist or I have a fragile ego or such. I base my conclusions out of measuring how humanistic, compassionate, and logically intelligent a society is. By arguing against what I have said those posters show they are not timid about criticizing which they would only do towards people that they feel more familiar with(people from western countries). They may also feel they benefited from Chinese people and feel an obligation. Those traits are things that many Chinese can learn from and take, as there are not nearly enough who do.

I didn't personally attack you, so there is no need to get personal. If you want to attack the UK for all it's flaws fine, I still was not getting personal against you. Shall not respond to you anymore, as I am sure you try to get me wound up, to start a flame war.

Hello San Mig
I didn't notice that you had been out of order at all; your posts seem challenging, but that's a good thing. Anyway I think we all need attacking from time to time, it makes things more interesting; as long as occasionally one contributes something that makes others want to reply, and you certainly do that. Now, am I right or am I right? Carry on the good work , San Mig. When are you coming back to China?

You know what foxy, mr reynard, you win, I'm tired of your aggression towards me, it's a battle neither side can win, you have some enmity towards the UK, I do not. I can accept you are happy where you are, you just can't accept alternative viewpoints from China.

I'd say lets just agree to disagree but I know you won't even go with that.

Inspite of it all, good luck with your retirement in IM.

Peace out,
San Migs/Alex

Not all of us expats hanker for our homelands, certainly not me - I prefer being in China!

I don't understand why you have to put this part about homelands and China always in bold text? We know your views on scotland, and the UK in general. I can accept that you are content with China and have no desire to return to the UK, and fair play to you, you have found what works for you.

But you won't change everyones opinion. A mate of mine found out he had a brain tumour, which they misdiagnosed in China through ineptitude. I don't mean to turn it into a China vs the UK slanging match, but it was funny that when he got to Hong Kong, he was sent for a scan, and they couldn't believe the laughable care he received on the mainland. Each place in the world, be it Scotland, England, the UK as a whole,Hong Kong Sar, or China (mainland), is always going to have it's pros and cons, horses for courses.

Happy upcoming year of the snake,
SMGS

It surely must be the case that a goverment agency only uses citybank to pay you because you live in China and have not given them a UK normal account to pay into? I'm not telling you that that is the case, you understand-I just don't fully understand.

I don't fully understand either, but I do know they're based in Dublin, and I believe they also do transfers to retired teachers in the UK. In fact, they handle all public pension distribution on behalf of SPPA. As for the OAP state pension, that's not SPPA's responsibility.
As I have arranged things so that there is neither 'bricks and mortar' nor GBP in my name, I have no need for a will - so my wife needn't the services of a UK lawyer in the event of my death. But she will have to get a verified death certificate from the Beijing UK visa office. That will suffice.
Not all of us expats hanker for our homelands, certainly not me - I prefer being in China!

However the money is being paid, it will probably be frozen for a long while until your executor applies for a grant of probate and the probate has been granted. Your wife would be well advised to brush up on her English while you are still alive and kicking, because she will be in for a long haul to get the pension flowing or trickling again.

The way it's set up can't be changed by me. SPPA is a govt agency that pays public pensions through Citibank. Despite my English I've been messed about by them both. It's now been more than a year since I reached 60. As for money, I have other money here that I can fall back on, in case of unexpected payment delays, and that is the same in the case of my wife.

My situation shows us what can happen to laowei abroad. The important thing is to have emergency funds available. Don't ever be totslly dependent on pension payments in case thomgs go [pear-shaped. I can say that SPPA and Citibank are both inefficient, inflexible and cunning. I also had trouble with the BOC, but that's been sorted now. I'll get there in the end!

Hey,SB - how goes it?

Yep, debit cards and all that crap. Enouigh said.
I neglected to reply to another poster re the payment of my pension instalments into a UK account, if I had one, but I don't. My teachers' pension is not the state old-age one, and is superannuated. My wife will qualify for 60% of what I get at present upon my death. So' it would be very self-serving of me to have my pension paid into a UK bank account, while she, being Chinese with dodgy English, and in China, would have a hell of a job trying to get money from those weasels at SPPA.
One week from now if SPPA has still not responded to my e-mails, I'll be lodging an extensive complaint in writing, as is my right. I'll go for the jugular. Brian should be turfed out on his ear!