Dragonized
- 2013-02-14
ASTF you've done a good job of giving some of the regulars the run around and exposing some of their flawed logic
Giving others the run around for you is ethical and exposes "flawed logic". [edited]
Mighty Sword Ole 69
- 2013-01-22
Whoever it is, they are trying to ruin this place, just like the Mackorello Troll ruined Let's Japan. Trolls. You know what to do. Ignore them.
Dragonized
- 2013-01-11
Haha you're calling me paranoid? That's pretty ironic.
ASTF
- 2013-01-11
Spare me the paranoia
I'm not 'The Exposer' poster just like I'm not the 'Mancunian' poster, a member of the wu Mao clan or any other bizarre accusation you've leveled at me.
Mancunian
- 2013-01-07
It is obvious you know me from China, and this goes back many years. I can honestly say I have not got a clue who you are, but you are clearly in the minority on these boards.
Bravo San Mig, exactly what I was thinking, we have to be careful, guard against, these 'Jack in the box' posters who suddenly appear and start throwing their weight around- Impudence of them. Cheers&beers.
Dragonized
- 2013-01-07
I wonder where this joker came from, probably got put in his place by you years back and has held a grudge forever. He really should post more if he's got that much to say. But hey when you need to lie, exaggerate, and slander folks like that obviously he can't think of anything real that would actually give him leverage. Pathetic.
San Migs
- 2013-01-07
It is obvious you know me from China, and this goes back many years. I can honestly say I have not got a clue who you are, but you are clearly in the minority on these boards.
Dragonized
- 2013-01-07
To think that giving folks the run around makes a person have principle shows how upside down your own values really are. You can keep on switching identities on the board, it's your free choice. But at the end of the day it doesn't hide your cowardice at having no principle.
I used to dismiss some people's opinions that many liberal minded folks are in fact control freaks who want to keep that ugly part of them in the closet. Now after seeing the reactions of some of these "dignified" folks I can see why. Your intolerance towards people with differing opinions shows you don't have much up in your own head.
Can you give us some examples of where San Migs has been kicked off? You seem to just want to continue this argument, which probably means you think the "regular" posters which probably includes me have nothing left to say. You are wrong if you make that assumption. But I am thinking since I haven't seen "The Exposer" on this board too often you aren't exactly generous with sharing anything.
Mancunian
- 2013-01-07
ASTF you've done a good job of giving some of the regulars the run around and exposing some of their flawed logic but you are dead wrong about San Migs not knowing what trolling is. He knows all too well! That's why he's been kicked off other discussion forums
Hello there
With respect, that was a bit beneath the belt? Did you used to tell tales about other kids at school; what is 'other forums' got to do with the price of fish? It does sound like a vindictive ploy to get the pressure off of yourself by diverting attention; the pressure that San Migs concise reasoning has put you under. I was shocked, and when you reflect a bit on your misplaced accusation, hopefully you will be shocked with yourself...but we all make these mistakes- now, am I right or am I right?
The Exposer
- 2013-01-07
ASTF you've done a good job of giving some of the regulars the run around and exposing some of their flawed logic but you are dead wrong about San Migs not knowing what trolling is. He knows all too well! That's why he's been kicked off other discussion forums.
San Migs
- 2013-01-05
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Shill_gambit
I actually thought it was American in origin, I must have a re-read!
Happy new year,
San Migs
Dragonized
- 2013-01-05
I like the way you said it with "shill gambit". I am trying to find a comparable American version. British slang can be quite interesting!
ASTF
- 2013-01-04
I doubt you know what trolling is. Seems like another default response from some of the 'established' posters on this site in order to protect their fragile egos.
San Migs
- 2013-01-04
You are just trolling for responses now, and trotting out a "shill gambit" routine. Posters like dragonised, myself, and silverboy are far more observant and perceptive than you will ever be. You need a few more years on you yet. Not going to bother responding to you anymore!
ASTF
- 2013-01-04
And how much have you donated to this site? Are you paying for the server? Are you a moderator?
You haven't even managed to enter the discussion on this thread with any meaningful or relevant posts. Just some stuff about Dyson vacuum cleaners. it's fair to say that just like a vacuum cleaner your opinions suck! Lol
Dragonized
- 2013-01-03
After reading this post, I will just say to you that I apparently made a mistake with showing a little compromising. I do not think that sounding less extreme after talking issues over with you as being a form of admitting I was wrong in a sense, but rather showing trust on your side that you would reciprocate. I assumed that we can leave the conversation without further agitating each other.
Through the "evolution" of your posts I see that you're just like most people I met in China, being unwilling to walk away from something that you cannot change and always needing to "win" in a disagreement whether it be small or whether it be with large stakes at hand. If you must see every disagreement such as this as ending only with the absolute "humiliation" and "exposure" of your opponent of some sort then I regretfully say to you that you're not getting that from me since I have nothing to hide. You are an aggressive individual but you are not too original with your views, either. Since you cannot step back and look at your own viewpoints as being extreme in and of themselves then I have to say that your views and opinions are pointless to me.
Anyone who is curious about what the difference really is between the East vs. West can take a look at our conversation. You have stopped at nothing to perceive every "weakness" that you see on my side where you can take advantage, while I have tried to analyze and explain logically why I feel the way I do while not trying to sound too biased and giving your viewpoints the benefit of the doubt, and I did this by trying to be more diplomatic. Of course, you will not stop until you want me to completely change my views and shape my reality as identical to that of yours. You're not changing my views, and you do not possess enough meat on your side of the argument to get anywhere except cause more strife.
San Migs
- 2013-01-03
I still enjoy the right to speak my mind on a free forum. If you can't accept these things I suggest you just stop reading my posts!
Cannot agree here. Do you donate to the forum, pay for the server hosting, do you help to moderate it or support it in any other way? None of us have a "right" to post on the internet really, just like none of us have a "right" to protest on the streets. I think this is pot calling the kettle black coming from you, esp. given where you are now.
ASTF
- 2013-01-03
Just remind me which points I've missed? You started this argument by making strong statements, the majority of which, would fall under 3 categories
1.The west is the best
2.China and the Chinese are inherently of a lower quality
3.China should be grateful to the west for anything it does have
You argued these points fairly forcefully and tried to bring in some examples to support them.
In more recent posts you've started to backtrack and head for less extreme ground and I've called you on it! Now you've just gone completely limp and have taken the position that you don't really like this argument because it all seems a little too argumentative for your taste! Perhaps you're not used to people stating a different point of view on this site but It does reek of someone who has just run out things to say.
I'm not sure what you mean when you consistently state that I'm missing something due to my 'lack of life experience'? Is there some hidden message within the posts that claim that "the Chinese are of lower quality" or "where would China be today without the west?" which actually portrays your views in a different light? Please for my sake if there is something I'm missing have the good decency to point it out rather than running for the obvious cover of saying "no, that's not what I meant to say".
No I won't admit to being wrong on the basic principle that the Chinese are no more morally good or bad than westerners. It is my belief that all people are equal, all have the ability to be good just as they have the ability to be bad. There is no nationality that is inherently lower or higher than any other.
I apologize if you think that my assessment of you as a Chinese hater is extreme but I can only really go on what you've contributed to this board. As well as the points I've already mentioned above you've also made claims on other threads including things like the Chinese are "the world's most unhappy people". It's difficult to get a sense of you having anything but contempt for the Chinese.
The fact that you have never acknowledged being able to overcome a bad experience while working in China and still had the faith to stick it out there tells me you really have no other place to go.
You know nothing about me! Again it's not surprising to see that you rely on this kind of tactic to discredit me as opposed to just sticking to the point. You've made some ridiculous assumptions about who I am, my nationality, my motives for posting and reason for being in china.The majority of which just like your supporting evidence for the Chinese being morally inferior are completely without truth. When I do post something about my life in china, other posters call me a liar! It's a bit of lose, lose situation for me when it comes to talking about my own personal experiences, isn't it?
I'm sorry to say (choose to believe this or not) you don't threaten me in the slightest. How could you? Continue posting in the same manner as you have been, it's really no skin of my nose. I think it's irresponsible from the point of view that those looking for support when planning on teaching aboard have to put up with your narrow minded views on the chinese but that is not a direct consequence to me is it?
Too many people forget how to speak sensibly after living abroad for so long, which is why you have these back and forths in the first place.
I would have thought that having back and forths on this board is a good thing, no? I mean it beats you and the SB sitting around trying to write the most absurd and derogatory insult about the Chinese that you can think of that day and then slapping each other on the back when you've done so. Perhaps it also shows that despite your comments that suggest I've sold out and 'gone native', I still enjoy the right to speak my mind on a free forum. If you can't accept these things I suggest you just stop reading my posts!
Dragonized
- 2013-01-03
As adults, we can stay consistent with our beliefs and give some people a benefit of the doubt. You read too much into a few things I was saying and ignored completely some of the other things I stated probably due to a lack of life experience. You are merely arguing with me at this point to prove that you were in fact right all along and I was always in the wrong. That alone shows how "mature" you are.
You will never admit to being wrong on anything because you can't prove to anyone in real life how valuable your opinion is. You need a whole foreign country to watch your back so you can feel like you're "part of the gang".
I admitted I was wrong about assuming china to be a good place to live and work in the long term several times in the past. I made sure to list reasons without justifying the need to personally attack people. I have enough confidence in myself to make judgements and I am not afraid to disagree with someone especially on an anonymous discussion board why my beliefs are what they are. You obviously feel threatened enough to respond, which shows you even doubt a part of what you believe in about china and you're merely covering up by endlessly attacking my character and labeling me a China Hater. I will tell you hands down I have read more Chinese books in my life than you have read English books most likely. I also know what the present Paradigm of Thinking in modern China is like and it isn't compatible with my set of beliefs, and I hope I don't change for China.
The fact that you have never acknowledged being able to overcome a bad experience while working in China and still had the faith to stick it out there tells me you really have no other place to go. This false confidence you bring to the table isn't fooling me. Go back to the drawing board. Or how about taking a step back and reading more reviews and articles on different ESL Forums and learning actually how to empathize (really, I mean) before you can say you made a fair comparison. I know a guy 6 years back who wouldn't want to hear any criticism about China because he was raised to believe otherwise, and he was naive enough to sign on to a private training center as his first gig and learned all about having his salary stolen, dealing with an alcoholic Director of Studies, and sharing a filthy apartment with a fellow expat and his Chinese girlfriend. Real life teaches you what's worth keeping and what's not. I can tell you that this man would've jumped out of his skin if I talked to him like this regarding China back before he started his first job there. Now after working at different places in China HE is the one posting warnings on discussion boards sharing his personal experiences as well as cautioning people to think twice before going to China. I trust his word since he has also worked in other countries teaching ESL.
This will probably the last time I will talk to you in a reasonable manner. If you cannot reciprocate in kind you might as well hold down that shift key and put your left pinkie on the 1 key since I will talk to you more on your level. But maybe that's why you're here in the first place. Too many people forget how to speak sensibly after living abroad for so long, which is why you have these back and forths in the first place.
ASTF
- 2013-01-02
Obviously you really enjoyed that high school sociology class you took , I did too! I remember talking about the bystander effect and diffusion of responsibility. However, do you think that I can take the Kitty Genovese case and make the assumption that because of that all Americans are morally inferior to any other race on the planet? And what if I do give you examples of moral behavior that I have observed Chinese engaged in? All that would prove is that at a certain point in time an individual or group of individuals acted in way that we could deem as morally correct it wouldn't mean that all Chinese act in a moral way all the time just as it doesn't mean that all Americans act in an immoral way all the time just because 38 of them decided to watch a girl get stabbed to death and raped. As I said, morality cannot be viewed in such black and white terms and you will never be able to find a single act or piece of evidence that can support your idea that the Chinese are on a lower moral plain than the rest of us.
I have always stated that the chinese are no better than others
No, You have backed yourself into a corner and now you're trying to riggle free. In other posts you have claimed that the Chinese are a lower quality of person and not equal to that of a westerner. You have made these claims and used at best weak arguments to back them up.
You like the "kevin" and "mancunian" poster hear what you want to hear and make life worse for yourselves
That's funny because I think if you actually read what we've written then you'll see that we're the ones who are saying that by in large we live a fairly happy life. You are the one complaining about the harsh realities of your own personal winter of discontent while at the same time raining down hate on another nationality you claim as being inferior.
if I was a forward thinking Chinese individual who wanted something better for china, you wouldn't care to interact with me
Oh so the Chinese aren't all backward thinking, money grabbing little old lady tippers! I interact with forward thinking Chinese on a day to day basis, it's my job to do so! What makes the interaction with such people that much easier for me is that I'm not starting from the assumption that the person I'm talking to isn't as good as I am, something which you clearly couldn't do. You criticize the Chinese for thinking they are better than everyone and yet in clear black and white you have said how you feel westerners are superior.
You need to prove how secure you are by personally attacking someone whom you don't know
And it seems you need to prove how secure you are by attacking an entire nation of people from behind the comfort of your keyboard.
What difference does it make as to who I am? I don't see a personal profile of you on this site anywhere! The only thing that you need know about me is that I despise the way you and anyone like you thinks in such narrow minded ways about other human beings.
Dragonized
- 2013-01-02
You do not have described anything "human" at all about the chinese. In none of your posts have you acknowledged how human they are as a group. I have stated that if you can't even trust anyone to help you if you slip and fall on a curb, then how as a group are they up to par with being civilized? This is an issue that Chinese people have themselves brought up. I have always stated that the chinese are no better than others, and I don't like dealing with them because generally speaking they believe they are better than everyone else when they are not. Even Americans who are generally an arrogant bunch don't always come across in such a manner.
From your posts you obviously don't think too well since you can't put 2 and 2 together. I doubt your chinese language ability is good enough to engage in meaningful conversation with local chinese people. During my time there I struck up casual conversations with folks everywhere from on trains to buses to supermarkets. I know my own experience carries more weight than yours, because you do not possess such social skills which are obvious from the posts you have put up. I know what the general mindset is like there and I left because I wasn't going to further my own life by living there. You like the "kevin" and "mancunian" poster hear what you want to hear and make life worse for yourselves and for everyone else because you waste time not knowing what to do with your lives.
Furthermore, if I was a forward thinking Chinese individual who wanted something better for china, you wouldn't care to interact with me anyway because I would rock your boat. Your view as well as Mancunian's view of China and the Chinese is that nothing should change, BECAUSE THAT'S HOW YOU GUYS BENEFIT! Any intelligent person no matter what demographic they are would see this.
You have nothing good to offer to this discussion, which is why you are resorting to personal attacks. I know still know nothing about you at this point, which is a good enough indicator of how much you really have to share. You need to prove how secure you are by personally attacking someone whom you don't know? You're just projecting your own sense of worthlessness onto me. Want to share your mama, drama, and trauma with us?
Mancunian
- 2013-01-02
My point was that Chinese people are in fact human beings and therefore just like the rest of us they are flawed. Going around saying they have no morals and in general are the scum of the earth (I can refer to many other posts if you need help remembering some of the bile you've written on this board ) does require defending!
Good post, very good post, I'm just as shocked as you.
ASTF
- 2013-01-02
If you read the response I made to SB (love that name, you're good at Chinese so you understand right?) you'll see I was arguing against another grandiose statement made that 'China is morally bankrupt'. My point was that Chinese people are in fact human beings and therefore just like the rest of us they are flawed. Going around saying they have no morals and in general are the scum of the earth (I can refer to many other posts if you need help remembering some of the bile you've written on this board ) does require defending!
Funny since you have yet to say anything intelligent.
I guess that makes two of us. The big difference is though that you appear to have been trying for a lot longer than I have. Still it's a new year so you never know you might get lucky in 2013. Happy New Year.
Dragonized
- 2013-01-01
If you honestly believe the moral code of 1 billion people are grey, then why the hell are you defending them? You would know that there are plenty of wrongs being committed there. You're just trying to justify yourself as having a higher moral ground. Funny since you have yet to say anything intelligent.
ASTF
- 2013-01-01
It would be rather foolish of me to make a bet that I can accurately state the moral and ethical code to which over a billion people live to. In fact it would be just as foolish of me to do so as it would to say in the same factual manner that you have that all those people living across such a vast area have no morals at all. Is there a website where you can buy these magical all knowing mirrors to which you clearly wake up to every morning?
Lets skip the next couple of replies where you'll find an example of some horrible thing that a Chinese person or group of Chinese people have done and then I'll come back and find an example of something good they've done. What should be clear is that societies and the individuals within them are not all good or all bad. China, like any other society has it's fair share of nasty bastards on one hand and on the other it has some people willing to give their lives for the good of others. However, the majority (again as with any other nation) are just going through life trying to do the best they can. Sometimes they make decisions that are morally reprehensible sometimes they show an ethical side. The moral landscape of any individual or group is not black or white, it is grey!