Dragonized
- 2013-02-28
References to a ‘meiyou banfa’ mentality or outlook have been used on expat boards of various forms for many years now. It actually means more than ‘no choice’, it can refer to a sense of unconditional obedience and a blind acceptance of fate.
Hit the nail on the head, John. Those of us who bother delving more deeply into the cultural outlook of modern chinese people see many missteps in the logic, values, and ideals that are to be carried out in a global world. Criticizing will bring out the better in others who want to improve, and that includes everyone. Those who can't see through this will call me and even you in your more modest approach as being hateful. Sometimes ethics isn't always the easiest bag to carry, but that doesn't mean it is bad for the back.
San Migs
- 2013-02-26
It is conversational nuances, ask 10 chinese speakers, what do they say, dui bu dui or not?
Mancunian
- 2013-02-25
Yes, pinyin is used in such cases. After all, some of these words will even become loanwords in the English language. Who talks about dumplings anymore, when we can talk about ‘Jiaozi’?However, writing whole sentences in pinyin to try to show off the Chinese that you picked up off some tart in a bar is just cringeworthy. Go to Xinhua bookstore and pick up a good ‘Chinese for beginners’ coursebook and study alone, please. Then use your Chinese on QQ. Even your bar tarts can do that together with you.
You seem a very sensitive and judgmental soul, John; why would you cringe because a body does a harmless bit of showing off, a weakness that we all can be prone to. Anyway, I'm not sure what this slutty bimbo bar talk has got to do with the couple of taglines I have used, like 'wo shi dui de hai shi wo shi dui de?' which another poster said could be replaced by 'dui bu dui' although I can't see how. The point is this though 'wo shi dui de hai shi wo shi dui de' is unlikely to be learned in a bar-it is a statement really that something is the unassailiable truth;whereas dui bu dui doesn't seem to fit the bill...but, I am a learner; you tell me? You can teach me something if you like?
John O’Shei
- 2013-02-25
References to a ‘meiyou banfa’ mentality or outlook have been used on expat boards of various forms for many years now. It actually means more than ‘no choice’, it can refer to a sense of unconditional obedience and a blind acceptance of fate. Several more professional terms could be referred to, some could discuss the role of uncertainty avoidance or traditional Confucian values in a long winded manner instead. However, on expat forums, we don’t tend to do that, we just laugh about it and not take excuses. After all, even Chinese managers in international companies based in China seem to be aware of the problem with local employees too.
‘Guanxi’ is a word that means more than ‘interpersonal relationships’, it can not be directly translated. ‘Wenming’ is another example, it means more than ‘civilised’, it is apparently very difficult to correctly translate that particular word perfectly into English.
Yes, pinyin is used in such cases. After all, some of these words will even become loanwords in the English language. Who talks about dumplings anymore, when we can talk about ‘Jiaozi’?
However, writing whole sentences in pinyin to try to show off the Chinese that you picked up off some tart in a bar is just cringeworthy. Go to Xinhua bookstore and pick up a good ‘Chinese for beginners’ coursebook and study alone, please. Then use your Chinese on QQ. Even your bar tarts can do that together with you.
Mancunian
- 2013-02-24
You are telling us [edited], therefore [edited], because you're [edited]. Your hyena paws are falling off, buddy.
Hahaha. Tell you what, Dragonised, can we drop this for now-we(me and Curious) need your Chinese expertise-we are struggling hard understanding and responding to China Man who has come out with some hanzi and looks like there might be more coming-just up your street to take over now, dear boy- There appears to be some evil 'Hazel Yin' involved. China Man could be a victim.
By the way, I am a Grovelling Weasel-it is you that is a Sniggering Hyena-let's not get things confused please hahaha.
Mancunian
- 2013-02-24
Either way, I don't care, I am right, and you are not. FT's flights should be paid, like your mate foxy says, end of story! Now am I right or am I right, son?
Yes, well, I think there's a bit more at stake here-I would like you to accept some things for how they are and not how they should be. I believe that you could make a real success of your life as a teacher in China; you obviously have a good command of English- when you are not being sloppy; and a good sense of humour to boot. At the moment I think you are piling everything against the Chinaman's door.
I don't think Foxy Poster would like you associating him with me, I've pulled his leg too many times-but his door is another you seem to be directing ills to, and imagining he's being nasty to you when he's not-he seems an all right sort of bloke to me..apart from lack of debit card hahaha.
I wish you well.
Dragonized
- 2013-02-24
You are telling us [edited], therefore [edited], because you're [edited]. Your hyena paws are falling off, buddy.
San Migs
- 2013-02-23
Either way, I don't care, I am right, and you are not. FT's flights should be paid, like your mate foxy says, end of story! Now am I right or am I right, son?
San Migs
- 2013-02-23
Yawn, GW club
Mancunian
- 2013-02-23
Flights should be paid upfront, you sound like a sellout to me, appollyon, tom, mancunian, blackburn, bitter or whatever your real name is. [edited]
Hello San Mig; well clever old cloggs me, how the Dicken's did I know I'd get this response before it happened; maybe it was that book I read on the bus "The Thoughts of Sniggering Hyenas?" hahaha. Pray tell me, what was the name of the silk merchant's sailing scooner that you embarked on from Southampton, the last time you received your transportation costs in advance from some school in China? hahaha.
No ,I didn't say that everybody in the West was in receipt of food stamps or income support....but...Ex Grumbling FT's do find recourse to these benefits helpful hahaha. 我是对的还是我是对的 (am I right or am I right?) had to learn a bit of hanzi since I was told off for using pinyin.
Dragonized
- 2013-02-23
The key to a successful teaching experience abroad is going with an open mind and ability to adapt to the local ways. If you aren't getting what you were promised in a contract, you are much more likely to get it by doing your job and politely insisting, while showing deference to your superiors. Get your employers to like you and appreciate having you, and you're more likely to get what you were promised.
Bending over backwards, so the next time the place gets new foreign teachers the boss will think they are entitled to make these demands of everybody.
Demand what you're owed and complain when you don't get it, you're more likely to be ignored.
Tells you more about that Chinese than anything, doesn't it eh?
If you're not willing to accept that you're working in a different business culture, you probably shouldn't have decided to teach in China.
There is nothing "cultural" about treating people like crap. Are YOU going to suggest that the crappy behavior of some expats who have been promoted to manager and who go along with the corrupt behavior of their bosses are a representation of true western culture?
I'm not saying that employees should put up with being mistreated and lied to, quite the contrary, I'm just saying that the employee is more likely to get what he or she is deserved by asking for it the right way. It works for me.
Why don't you show everyone some strategies on what consists of "asking the right way"? It certainly sounds pretty western in terms of the logical structure the way you explained it. How are you supposed to expect an Easterner to understand this? Sometimes the only way that works is to make them lose enough face so they know to lay off of you.
Dragonized
- 2013-02-23
John you are the very person to carry the torch from the teachers who are not currently in China. Thank you for your posts and thank you for providing the model of someone who can work in China, but doesn't have to lose his/her soul doing it. These folks who so like to cut people down do it seemingly only after they've had a few drinks and can get a couple of their drunk buddies to put up a post or two so that they can have more courage. But your words outweigh them all!
Dragonized
- 2013-02-23
if you ever watch dissatisfied Chinese customers in a store... Are they polite? NO. They make a huge scene, they are loud, expressive and deliberately make sure that the other party loses face and faces the prospect of losing even more face. The offending party will often take face saving measures. Angry Chinese people do this even better than the most arrogant of self-entitled Westerners. Sometimes, you’ve got to yell, show muscle with guanxi connections if you have any too.
Yep, why are we supposed to act all apologetic but then allow the locals to do as they seek fit to us? This is a country that has produced "pillars of virtue" such as some chinese men who will have no problem "giving" their own daughter or wife to a superior to "use" in ways that goes way beyond what is considered professional boundaries. Folks growing up in this type of environment have little tolerance towards westerners who are too polite because it isn't compatible with what they are used to seeing. Being too polite is taken as being fake, which is the same as being considered a liar in the west. The reason angry chinese do it better is because they are not tied down with principle and rule abiding like we are, and some westerners on this board can't wrap their minds around that. These hapless folks don't get any extra favors from doing it in real life due to being in China, so they come on here and try to tell us how much more polite we have to be in order to avoid upsetting the Chinese. The Chinese are easy to upset due to fundamental lacks in child raising, and the only way that can be resolved is by effort to change on their own. We just need to stand our ground and not give an inch.
San Migs
- 2013-02-23
Holding your tongue will get you walked all over like a doormat in life, but it is your call.
San Migs
- 2013-02-23
Flights should be paid upfront, you sound like a sellout to me, appollyon, tom, mancunian, blackburn, bitter or whatever your real name is. [edited]
Mancunian
- 2013-02-23
‘
meiyou banfa’
I ADVISE YOU TO COME QUIETLY, SIR; I AM ARRESTING YOU ON SUSPICION OF USING CHINESE PINYIN IN CONTRAVENTION OF THE JOHN O'SHEI BAN ON USING PINYIN ON THIS FORUM-ANYTHING YOU DO OR DON'T SAY WILL BE HELD AGAINST YOU HAHAHA.
On the bright side John it's the new term soon-did you used to be a teacher once like San Mig, Dragonised and other members of the SH Club?
John O’Shei
- 2013-02-23
Not true at all. Give them an inch and they’ll take a yard. Also, accepting ‘accepting and understanding Chinese culture’, does not equal kissing someones backside or being submissive, even if some farmers out there have a ‘meiyou banfa’ complex, question is, are you a farmer too? . You don’t have to sit back and admire, just understand the rules and play by them and in true Chinese style, deceive people with them (usually those that would otherwise deceive you).
Also, being that rude, arrogant and direct westerner can be a good thing sometimes! Chinese people find that difficult to handle.Besides, if you ever watch dissatisfied Chinese customers in a store... Are they polite? NO. They make a huge scene, they are loud, expressive and deliberately make sure that the other party loses face and faces the prospect of losing even more face. The offending party will often take face saving measures. Angry Chinese people do this even better than the most arrogant of self-entitled Westerners. Sometimes, you’ve got to yell, show muscle with guanxi connections if you have any too.
A friend recently did this when a training centre didn’t pay him. Making sure that parents and students in the centre hear the threats towards the bosses was not look a good look for the centre. He got all of his money, rather quickly indeed.
Mancunian
- 2013-02-22
I tend to agree.
The key to a successful teaching experience abroad is going with an open mind and ability to adapt to the local ways. If you aren't getting what you were promised in a contract, you are much more likely to get it by doing your job and politely insisting, while showing deference to your superiors. Get your employers to like you and appreciate having you, and you're more likely to get what you were promised. Demand what you're owed and complain when you don't get it, you're more likely to be ignored. If you're not willing to accept that you're working in a different business culture, you probably shouldn't have decided to teach in China. I'm not saying that employees should put up with being mistreated and lied to, quite the contrary, I'm just saying that the employee is more likely to get what he or she is deserved by asking for it the right way. It works for me.
Succinctly put. You must now be prepared to be attacked by the whole vulgar cackle of Sniggering Hyenas; they will make outlandish accusations....they make me roar with laughter actually. However, on a more somber note, they have managed to brainwash the odd otherwise nice but simple-minded FT, rendereding them useless to ever work again, because FTing in China was their only outlet for work; sadly now they will never be accepted for work in China again, because they have been got at-gotten excessively militant and stroppy - start demanding flight money to be sent to England in advance-nonsense like that.
Guajiro
- 2013-02-22
I tend to agree.
The key to a successful teaching experience abroad is going with an open mind and ability to adapt to the local ways. If you aren't getting what you were promised in a contract, you are much more likely to get it by doing your job and politely insisting, while showing deference to your superiors. Get your employers to like you and appreciate having you, and you're more likely to get what you were promised. Demand what you're owed and complain when you don't get it, you're more likely to be ignored. If you're not willing to accept that you're working in a different business culture, you probably shouldn't have decided to teach in China. I'm not saying that employees should put up with being mistreated and lied to, quite the contrary, I'm just saying that the employee is more likely to get what he or she is deserved by asking for it the right way. It works for me.
Dragonized
- 2013-02-22
When the China grumblers on this site tell us what they are now up to and how they are doing....well, we find they are not doing very well at all; in fact a couple sound quite destitute-dossing in derelict buildings-in grotty basement flats-finding the need for food stamps. Now then, if I found myself reduced to that, I would be asking questions of myself; such as, am I upsetting the people I shouldn't upset; and who are those people? Well for FT's who have been working in China ,it's the Chinese bosses. These ne're-do-well ex-ft's have certainly been doing something wrong, to find themselves on the scrap-heap. Personally, I deduce that they have been too aggressive-too bone idle, and have grumbled their ways to the gutter- there's a lot to be said for moderation and holding your tongue sometimes- am I right or am I right?
I suspect that some spineless, good for nothing predator types have been making out bullying and lying for too long in China and thinking that this has become a part of their life because they are right for living it. Now if you could kindly provide some solid, decent evidence that any of the posters who criticize and go against your agenda are living in broken down buildings, basements, or in need of applying for food stamps. I do think this description fits you rather well if you lived in the west, in fact you probably lived like this because of such inconvenient things as having addiction problems, not paying your child support on time, or just plain not being able to have a job due to some sort of past. For you to try and take down the characters of people because of some perceived lack of income or being poor is reason enough to avoid your "advice".
"Chinese bosses" in your words are people who should be exempt from any sort of criticism, doubts, and should be held up on some high pedestal without ever questioning their motives. I must say that you do this because you are trying to use them for your own benefit, and you believe the unscrupulous culture and atmosphere in the country in which you reside provides ample opportunity to act out your fantasies of being the masochistic slave to your sadistic eastern masters.
In your world, even on anonymous forums people should hold their tongue and not show their opinions if it frets authority in your opinion.[edited][edited]
Mancunian
- 2013-02-21
I must totally disagree with you here. Instead of smiling at them as you suggest, I would speak up and not tolerate any of their BS if they violated the rules of the contract and make their life as difficult as possible. No decent FT can allow crap Chinese bosses to get away with that!
Hello Turnoi
It sounds to me that you are a successful well-educated man, and probably not short of a bob or two; so, you must be the exception which proves the rule, since you have some really down-at-heel bedfellows. When the China grumblers on this site tell us what they are now up to and how they are doing....well, we find they are not doing very well at all; in fact a couple sound quite destitute-dossing in derelict buildings-in grotty basement flats-finding the need for food stamps. Now then, if I found myself reduced to that, I would be asking questions of myself; such as, am I upsetting the people I shouldn't upset; and who are those people? Well for FT's who have been working in China ,it's the Chinese bosses. These ne're-do-well ex-ft's have certainly been doing something wrong, to find themselves on the scrap-heap. Personally, I deduce that they have been too aggressive-too bone idle, and have grumbled their ways to the gutter- there's a lot to be said for moderation and holding your tongue sometimes- am I right or am I right?