Paul Barry
- 2005-07-31
I dont have a college education, and I had to pass an high school eq exam to get a diploma.
I am a very successful businessman and I spent the best year of my 53 years teaching English in China.
Education is worth squat if that is all you have.
Intelligence and expereince in the world are 10 times more valuable than a degree.
I am proof.
Paul Barry
Member Mensa USA Member # 1123241.
Howard Zinn, Historian
- 2005-07-21
Nothing like reading a bunch of posts from you guys when you decide to mix it up!
All you guys have good arguments. Keep it up.
Rheno747
- 2005-07-21
People getting paid what they're 'worth' is only an ideal. 'People getting paid what some small group of elites/controllers decides what they are gonna get paid' describes the world I live in. People get paid what they are paid because they accept what this group passess off as a wage, no matter which industry it is.
I have a better way:
1. Place your right hand in your right pocket.
2. Place your left hand in your left pocket.
3. Keep your hands there until the elites decide to pay you a better wage.
Easy as that, ladies and gentlemen. Why complain? You got pockets, don't you?
MPP
- 2005-07-21
if you want to play crying baby, then you should not expect the best of treatment.
Yingwen Laoshi
- 2005-07-20
I'll follow in your footsteps and become a TROLL! You seem like an expert in this field. Maybe it will become a specialized field in which we can teach trolling as a special subject.
please sing MGM:-
I am a Troll and I live in a hole!
TROLLS OF THE WORLD UNIT LETS KEEP UP THE FIGHT!
(against our fellow English teachers)
FREEDOM AND POWER TO THE TROLLS!
MGM
- 2005-07-20
You said:
especially native-speakers ARE a valuable commodity in China.
So ride the wave of NESing in China until it washes ashore.
After that, then what will you do?
Yingwen Laoshi
- 2005-07-20
I wasn't whining about the salaries Dos. I was simply making the point, in response to an earlier poster that FTs, especially native-speakers ARE a valuable commodity in China. This is because of their relative rarity in a huge country, and the willingness of students or their mothers to pay a healthy sum for their services.
We don't really need a union (although one or two might be useful), or long meetings working out how to increase wages. We just need to use a bit of simple commonsense, by being aware that many schools can pay more money than they first offer in their adverts.
When I mentioned supporting each other, I didn't have in mind all FTs in China going on a long march through China with banners and megaphones 'demanding our rights'. I was simply trying to encourage less of the 'like it or lump it, mate!' attitude of some teachers as soon as a fellow FT encourages us not to sell ourselves short.
My 'black Mercedes' story may have come across as cynical and bitter, but it was just an illustrative joke to hammer my point home.
BD
- 2005-07-20
Everyone makes what they are worth. If you are accepting low wages, then that is most likely what you are worth. If you are making more money then you are probably a better teacher.
And a note to the backpacker crowd: experience and education ARE worth more money! The same as back home (regardless of where you call home).
Yingwen Laoshi
- 2005-07-20
I wasn't whining about the salaries Dos. I was simply making the point, in response to an earlier poster that FTs, especially native-speakers ARE a valuable commodity in China. This is because of their relative rarity in a huge country, and the willingness of students or their mothers to pay a healthy sum for their services.
We don't really need a union (although one or two might be useful), or long meetings working out how to increase wages. We just need to use a bit of simple commonsense, by being aware that many schools can pay more money than they first offer in their adverts.
When I mentioned supporting each other, I didn't have in mind all FTs in China going on a long march through China with banners and megaphones 'demanding our rights'. I was simply trying to encourage less of the 'like it or lump it, mate!' attitude of some teachers as soon as a fellow FT encourages us not to sell ourselves short.
My 'black Mercedes' story may have come across as cynical and bitter, but it was just an illustrative joke to hammer my point home.
JinChaFa
- 2005-07-20
Yes, to echo Yingwen's sentiments, I'm already here, have been for sometime and have no intention of leaving. I'm proud of my ability to help the Chinese in their endeavor to learn English as a Second Language in order to improve their lot in life and their standing in the world community; however, I refuse to be exploited here as adamently as I refuse to be exploited at home. And why shouldn't I have the same values here? Is there something unique about China that should cause me to cast away my values as if they're a ragged and overworn pair of shoes? No. Moreover, when I negotiate my wage and benefits I do so with an awareness of my value as a qualified and experienced educator and I find that my confidence in those qualifications and experiences is appreciated and ultimately rewarded by those who are interested in my services. But if I were to accept less, they would of course gladly give it to me.
So you see Dos, my advice is exactly the opposite of yours. I say, come here with confidence knowing your skills are needed and refuse to accept a mere pittance of what you can and should be earning. Only someone with blinders on can't see that the schools and agents are the real profit takers, and how could they do so if it weren't for people like you willing to accept far less than what could and should be paid. Yep, they love you idealists and, as I've said before, they're laughing all the way to the bank.
JinChaFa
- 2005-07-20
Right on Rheno - as usual...........
BD
- 2005-07-20
Yingwen,
A very good response, and an answer to my question on an earlier thread regarding the pay of foreign teachers and locals. I agree that foreign teachers are big asset to a school. The only problem that I see is that a small number of foreign teachers seem to be awfully pretentious.
Dos
- 2005-07-20
>>I'm here already Dos. Have been for nearly three years, and plan on staying as long as I like. If you don't like, or don't feel inclined to support your fellow teachers out here, then maybe you should go back.
Well, YL, I feel I *do* support my fellow teachers. I give advice (and it is only advice) when people ask it of me, and I have written several documents to help people with their Visa/Contract questions.
I draw the line at telling people what they should earn. That's up to you.
I would be more than happy if the pay went up, but the market (as for anywhere for anything) tends to settle at a rate the schools, and obviously the teachers, rate as okay.
Each to their own. I wasn't saying don't whine, but it's obviously not going to help. If there was a good and obvious way to increase pay then I would offer my support, believe me. No one on this, or any other board I have seen has suggested a way I consider feasable.
You have been here three years, so you are obviously okay with the salary.
>>Oops!, sorry you're not a teacher, you're a Dos!
It explains a lot!
Actually, yes I AM a head teacher. However the name I use is made up of my initials! Been noted more than once though. Freaky old world.
As an aside, even when I was earning 'just' a teacher's salary, I was actually able to save a decent amount money (in dollars). Mainly because the school provides acomm and living is generally cheap, so there isn't the outlay you have back 'home'. Go figure.
Yingwen Laoshi
- 2005-07-20
> I'm quite happy with what I earn in China. Hence I stay here.
Dos
That is exactly my point. We ALL want to be happy with what we earn in China. The fact is most FT's salaries in China are negotiable. In fact many schools state that on their job adverts. Maybe your school does too.
Assuming you are the same Dos, I seem to remember you previously posting on this forum that you were earning considerably more than 4000 RMB at your school. Guessing that your salary is relatively high, no wonder you're happy! You're entitled to be.
> I must asssume that anyone coming to work here knows the salary > offered and accepts it.
See above point. Are you saying here that no FT has the right to negotiate for a higher salary, and that he must accept the first offer he receives every time?
>So if you don't like it, don't come. Quite
> easy really.
I'm here already Dos. Have been for nearly three years, and plan on staying as long as I like. If you don't like, or don't feel inclined to support your fellow teachers out here, then maybe you should go back.
Oops!, sorry you're not a teacher, you're a Dos!
It explains a lot!
Silver
- 2005-07-20
It is our choice.
Dos
- 2005-07-20
I'm quite happy with what I earn in China. Hence I stay here.
I must asssume that anyone coming to work here knows the salary offered and accepts it. So if you don't like it, don't come. Quite easy really.
Rheno747
- 2005-07-20
Some of us refuse to accept what you are willing to accept, obviously. That doesn't make us 'whiners'. We just want the world to know we won't accept the ill treatment that people like you are willing to accept.
Hopefully, those of us who 'whine', as you call it, can improve the lot of us all, including you.
You're welcome.
R747
JinChaFa
- 2005-07-20
Although I appreciate that you are entitled to an opinion, I couldn't agree with you less.
While you and your Pollyanna attitude are trying to get your head out of the sand, the rest of us will be strolling on by with our heads held high and our wallets a little bit fuller than yours.
Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, the question of wages is not always about the fact that the Chinese can always find someone to do the work for dirt-cheap wages. It's more about their need to find truly qualified teachers - a task more easily accomplished by providing salaries that will lure such teachers to China, and that will ultimately improve the quality of EFL education here.
Yingwen Laoshi
- 2005-07-20
John
You are correct in stating that there are thousands of us Fts working in China. What we also need to remember however is that China is an enormous country with a population of about 1.3 BILLION. I think we can all agree that there is also an enormous number of schools over here, of which many continually seek FTs to work at their schools.
The fact is FTs are still a drop in the ocean in China. We are STILL a rarity in most cities and towns in China and will continue to be for a good few years from now.
Darren and all other FTs currently working in China are indeed valuable assets. If you have a pulse and are a native speaker with a foreign face (particularly a white one), you are highly sought after, virtually everywhere in China!
As everybody knows having an FT at a school increases the profit margins considerably more than it does if only local teachers are working there. This is why it is completly pointless for people to continually compare the wages of FTs to those of local teachers. It's a pointless comparison. SCHOOLS IN CHINA MAKE A LOT MORE MONEY ON AVERAGE FROM US FTs , SO WHY SHOULDN'T WE GET PAID A LOT MORE THAN THE LOCALS?
True, it's not our God given right to demand high salaries, however schools also don't have a God given right to demand high fees from their students, because they have an FT on their books, but they invariably DO!
It's up to each one of us as individuals to decide what we believe we are worth. Not everything is cut and dried. Our salary at a particular school depends on so many factors that I don't have time, nor need to go into now. Everybody knows this anyway.
I believe I know how much I'm worth(probably a lot less than I think, but never mind. Lol), and so do Jinchafa and Darren. Also, Many school owners know what we are worth to them too; Often a big black Mercedes, or BMW and the suchlike, judging from the vehicles with horns blaring, that I often have to dodge at the school gates.
If more of us listened to Fts like Jinchafa and Darren, we'd at least only suffer the humiliation of the school leaders overtaking us in their black saloons , waving to us, WHILE WE ARE IN TAXIS, not the local dirty, polluted overcrowded bus.'Why is the Laowai taking the poor bus into town........'. The answer to that depends on us all, either individually or collectively.
Posted By: John
In Response To: salaries (darren)
If Darren wants to earn the same sort of salary he claims to be able to command back where he comes from - then let him go back there and command it. He completely overlooks the fact that while the salary in China is lower than at home - so is the cost of living. Moreover he is not a "valuable commodity" he's just one of thousands of teachers many of whom are unqualified and quite happy to have their round-world trips paid for while in China by doing a spot of teaching. The going rate this year for English teachers is around RMB:5,000 a month and last year it was around RMB:4,000 a month so the salaries are going up not down.
I'm not working my way around the world but am qualified and I enjoy the experience of living and working in China - I'm happy to take the going rate - let Darren and those who sincerely agree with him stand shoulder to shoulder and see how long their line will stretch - I suspect not very far. The rest of us will simply walk past them and be happy to do so.
John
More at: http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/china-info/index.pl?noframes;#276