Concerned Teacher
- 2014-09-29
You know nothing about it, you didn't work there. Whereas I did and therefore know what I'm talking about.
[edited]
Beth
- 2014-09-28
Yes, unannounced inspections. You know nothing about it, you didn't work there. Whereas I did and therefore know what I'm talking about. Good schools who are members of AISLI are subject to unannounced inspections.
It's not an expensive country to live in, certainly a lot cheaper than the UK. Although money seems to be your motivating force in most things, so your attitude doesn't surprise me. You wouldn't teach in Italy as they actually expect a lot more than the bare minimum when it comes to teaching. A tourist-teacher [edited] wouldn't last a week!
Concerned Teacher
- 2014-09-28
Most countries in Europe have a regulatory system (for example, AISLI in Italy and NABSS in Spain) and a good private school will be a member of the relevant organisation for their country. Unannounced inspections will be held,
Unannounced inspections? For what they pay esl teachers in italy/spain...get away will you, you are having a laugh.
Italy is expensive, I would not teach there for anything less than 2,500 euros a month and free apartment w/ no bills and airfares covered.
MikeK
- 2014-09-28
Several years? A pgce takes a year in the UK
PGCE is a post graduate course similar at the same academic level as the final year of an Honours degree, so I added the years to obtain the degree.
http://www.ucas.com/how-it-all-works/teacher-training/postgraduate-routes-teaching#
Of course one could go the PTLLS - CTLLS - DTLLS route which would take a year but then one still needs a three year subject based qualification or apparently substantial professional experience which adds even more years.
http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storyCode=6175365
As to being a better environment, yes it's debatable, but then working for a Training Centre corporation, living in that corporation's shared hovel plus perhaps being subject to the whims of a Khao San Road qualified DOS and with an Employment Contract written in invisible ink might make any environment better.
Walking Dead
- 2014-09-27
Several years? A pgce takes a year in the UK and infact you can find work in those inner city public schools without a pgce such is the demand for teachers in those locations. It's challenging and one could say noble work to teach in a poor innercity school but whether it's a better environment to work in is debatable.
Fifi
- 2014-09-27
Good suggestion :o)
MikeK
- 2014-09-27
Yes, Turnoi and [edited] see things in a purely black and white manner.No nuance.
True believers. No doubt.
Could "nuance" be a euphemism that a Training Centre boss or bossette uses once a newly arrived teacher finds out that his/her employment contract doesn't apply the day after it was signed?
One does hear of such things you know.
I think that a public service would be to have a mandatory warning attached to Training Centre and Recruitor's job adverts.
"This recruitor may or may not damage your sanity or financial well being or both"
Somebody
- 2014-09-27
Yes, Turnoi and [edited] see things in a purely black and white manner.
No nuance.
True believers. No doubt.
MikeK
- 2014-09-27
Just because someone chooses to work at a TC or in any other place that you wouldnt
necessarily choose to work in doesn't automatically mean they are a lesser teacher or
indeed that they don't derive satisfaction from what they are doing. You can't possibly
be sure of those kind of things.
The teachers you mentioned I guess will have spent several years hard work studying in a Teacher Training College or at University to be teachers in the State Sector and yes they choose those places where they find motivation and job satisfaction.
Whereas Celta/TEFL/TESOL takes four weeks in a Training Centre with a few hours practicum - as you say it doesn't necessarily mean that anyone is a lesser teacher - it's where they work that is the lesser.
However in my opinion for what it's worth, I think that someone who has completed several years training will probably look higher than a Training Centre Corporation for employment.
Walking Dead
- 2014-09-27
Some people find motivation from working in those kind of extreme circumstances. Others might find it from making money or perhaps the location of the school is importance to them or maybe it's something else. There are infinite reasons an individual might choose to work somewhere and they can't be fully appreciated by anyone other than the person who made the choice.
Just because someone chooses to work at a TC or in any other place that you wouldnt necessarily choose to work in doesn't automatically mean they are a lesser teacher or indeed that they don't derive satisfaction from what they are doing. You can't possibly be sure of those kind of things. There are far too many self verifying theories floating around this board.
MikeK
- 2014-09-26
I know several talented bright young teachers who actively choose to work in difficult/low performing inner city schools in the UK.
I have the utmost admiration for teachers who opt for work in difficult/low performing inner city schools anywhere and I'm sure that they derive a lot more job satisfaction working there than working for a Training Centre Corporation.
MikeK
- 2014-09-26
Ask yourself why do training centres exist in the first place? I'd say there are two main
reasons
1. They offer something that the public education system doesn't or even can't offer
2. Parents/students want to get ahead in their studiesSo long as that niche and the demand for it exists there will always be training centres. If
parents aren't happy then they can take their money elsewhere or opt out of the private
education system altogether. One of the key regulating factors within private education
is market force.
Yes !!!!!
So if Training Schools can only employ teachers with fake degrees etc., then they will be forced to close..
Beth
- 2014-09-26
What we need then is an open forum that helps teachers make informed decisions. Even then teachers should be 'able' to work for whom ever they choose. I know several talented bright young teachers who actively choose to work in difficult/low performing inner city schools in the UK.
I do too. One of my friends works at a school in Canning Town and some of the stories she has makes my blood run cold, but she loves her form class and has made a lot of positive headway with them.
Learning can take place wherever there is somebody willing to teach well. The students that get sent to bad schools deserve a good teacher no matter what; they are the priority once the classroom door closes, not the politics.
Walking Dead
- 2014-09-26
In my opinion it would be better that bad places are only able to employ bad teacher
What we need then is an open forum that helps teachers make informed decisions. Even then teachers should be 'able' to work for whom ever they choose. I know several talented bright young teachers who actively choose to work in difficult/low performing inner city schools in the UK.
after complaints from concerned parents then their Ministries of Education will have to act to close the Training Centres in favour of regulated State Schools.
Ask yourself why do training centres exist in the first place? I'd say there are two main reasons
1. They offer something that the public education system doesn't or even can't offer
2. Parents/students want to get ahead in their studies
So long as that niche and the demand for it exists there will always be training centres. If parents aren't happy then they can take their money elsewhere or opt out of the private education system altogether. One of the key regulating factors within private education is market force.
BeenThere
- 2014-09-26
They shouldn't, which is why I advocate for opinions based on actual experience on this board, rather than a blanket generalisation of all private schools. Highlight the bad places, discourage teachers from going there. Praise the good places, recognise when something stands out from the norm.
I totally agree!! (one of many on this board)
Beth
- 2014-09-26
I don't know if I'd necessarily agree it's a waste, my point is that no matter the place a good teacher can teach their students well and in my opinion, that is never a waste. If the students are engaged and learning, I don't think that's a waste of my time/talent/qualifications.Yes I agree, except good teachers shouldn't have to work in bad places because that's a waste of their real qualfications and talent.
They shouldn't, which is why I advocate for opinions based on actual experience on this board, rather than a blanket generalisation of all private schools. Highlight the bad places, discourage teachers from going there. Praise the good places, recognise when something stands out from the norm.Why should decent teachers wishing to develop a career in teaching be forced to learn the hard way by falling for bad places BS, lies and downright chicanery?
Oh, I completely agree, I could only manage two years before a combination of a slide in the ethics of the management team and having to work with tourist-teachers ended my time teaching in China. I'm much happier being in a nice school in Europe!And how many good teachers end up disillusioned or burnt out from "kicking against the pricks"..
Ah, you see this is where we differ, slightly. I don't believe that state schools are the pinnacle of educational standards we should all strive for; I have worked in state schools in the UK and in China and, especially in the latter, there are massive problems with regulating standards. The same can be said for the UK (to a lesser extent) and America when it comes to classroom standards. And I don't think bad teachers should be employed anywhere!In my opinion it would be better that bad places are only able to employ bad teachers and then possibly after complaints from concerned parents then their Ministries of Education will have to act to close the Training Centres in favour of regulated State Schools.
I fully agree with the need for an independent regulatory body who monitors the standards of English teaching. Most countries in Europe have a regulatory system (for example, AISLI in Italy and NABSS in Spain) and a good private school will be a member of the relevant organisation for their country. Unannounced inspections will be held, along with audits of paperwork (lesson planning, on-going testing and exam procedure) and teachers observed with feedback sessions after. These schools will do rigorous checks on their staff to ensure they are fully qualified and usually a face-to-face interview will be held (not via the phone or by skype). So long as private schools are monitored, they can be just as effective as the learning in state schools, if not more so.
In Italy (for example) state schools do not employ native speakers to teach English, but nationals who have obtained a B2 language certification (either an FCE pass or an IELTS at 5.5/6). These teachers will go to an AISLI membership private school to gain this certification and will then teach Elementary (A1) to Intermediate (B1) to the children in the state schools. However in Italian state schools once this certification has been gained, there is no follow-up. In some cases the teachers gained their qualifications many years ago and since then have rarely spoken English with a native speaker, resulting in some very dubious pronunciation and use of English. So ESL teaching in good private schools in Italy is often far superior to the ESL teaching in state schools. The same is true for Spain and for Greece.
The crux of the matter is that without independent assessment and regulations, there will always be unscrupulous people who seek to profit from a market as in demand as ESL (especially in China) and so there will always be some very unethical places operating. I don't think the solution is to close all private language schools and move them to the remit of the state, as the state is in many cases just as open to abuse as the private system. My solution would be:
MikeK
- 2014-09-25
good teaching can happen at bad places
Yes I agree, except good teachers shouldn't have to work in bad places because that's a waste of their real qualfications and talent.
Why should decent teachers wishing to develop a career in teaching be forced to learn the hard way by falling for bad places BS, lies and downright chicanery?
And how many good teachers end up disillusioned or burnt out from "kicking against the pricks"..
In my opinion it would be better that bad places are only able to employ bad teachers and then possibly after complaints from concerned parents then their Ministries of Education will have to act to close the Training Centres in favour of regulated State Schools.
Beth
- 2014-09-25
You and your 'crew' are the only ones who think we are the EF crew! We're not, we don't like EF and wouldn't recommend working there, and that's based on experience, not bias. We're just sensible enough to realise that good teaching can happen at bad places, a simple concept based on individual teachers, that doesn't fit in your generalised view of the world.