John O'Shei
- 2018-03-29
The idea of communism will often sound nice, but it never really works. Even China knows that, hence they dabble with capitalism and try to at least come up with new theories to an extent; although one wonders if they're just polishing a turd at times.
There's a lot of idealistic people out there that want to call to change governments, change the world etc but they don't even know how to improve their own situation.
In the Know
- 2018-03-29
@you and Dragonized:
Both of you are off-topic. I haven't in the slightest defended collectivism, and I wouldn't do that. I simply know a bit about history and said that:
1. historically, Confucianism resulted in collectivism, and
2. and that both of the latter were historically long after Sunzi's Art of War.
If your data are incorrect, then your interpretation of the them is incorrect as well, and your conclusion drawn is a fallacy, both in terms of facts and logics.
The parrot has again shown his ignorance,lol.
Dragonized
- 2018-03-29
"In the know" forgets about the hundreds of millions of lives ruined and lost due to collectivist ways of operation by some societies. Modern people all like to talk about communism. But in times where confucianist ideas was the philosophy adopted by the ruling class, the population would always suffer huge losses. This was especially true when dynasties changed. It was not a surprise for the new dynastical emperor to do a population count and find losses of more than seventy percent, sometimes in areas as high as ninety percent.
Folks like "In the know" like to live in their own heads and ignore reality. Such is why history gets repeated all too often.
Parody Parrot
- 2018-03-29
Collectivism ( working in a group , teamwork ) may be ok in a football team or ( possibly ) in a war but it has no place in any civil society.
Group thinking and "herd mentality" stifles creativity and skill and motivation.
Anyone who has lived in China knows this.
Individualism is why countries like the USA and even Australia and New Zealand with smaller populations have been so successful, even in the 60's and 70's. China in 2017 is similar in economic development and technology to the USA and Australia in the early 70's. It won't last though.
Collectivism and any Confucianism type principle have no place or value in any modern society.
FYI the only reason why the USA lost in Vietnam is because they did not go in hard enough and pussyfooted around.
They had the technology and weapons to flatten the commie bastards.
Some friends of mine who were in Vietnam told me that the place should have been saturation bombed from the beginning with endless waves of B 52 bombers and possibly with low yield tactical nuclear weapons in some cases. The communists would have been defeated quickly but Nixon thought this strategy was "cruel" so it was not adopted. It would have been less "cruel" to end the war quickly.
You are really showing your ignorance. Do proper research next time.
In the Know
- 2018-03-29
Then, where is that damn "Doctor" then to back him up? That doctor should stay far away from him as otherwise SB's posts demonstrating his ignorance would be less entertaining. His posts make good material for another book on...lol
Notice in his reply to you how he moves the goalposts by writing about collectivism. Challenge him on this and he will without question tell us he's not interested in Chinese history.
In the Know
- 2018-03-29
I challenged him on his collectivism stuff already, no reply so far. You will certainly be able to guess, why.
http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/forum/index.pl?read=148087
Brock The Badger
- 2018-03-29
I personally agree with that part of your input. But my disgust is far less for their religion than for the lack of democracy and the rule of law. Sharia instead of the rule of secular law is BS!!!!!!!Saudi and other Arab and Muslim states are really disgusting though
I also agree with that bit on women.
Homosexuals are also looked down upon in many Western societies by larger parts of the population there.
- look at the way they treat homosexuals and women
A good post.
And you are right about homosexuals being looked down on by large parts of Western society, but at least they have the law on side, mostly.
In the Know
- 2018-03-29
No, unfortunately - or fortunately? -not. Collectivism in Chinese society and culture came with Confucianism - or better: is a result of the latter. Sunzi lived and wrote his book long before that.
BTW, he can't have been that wrong. Vietnamese generals in their war against America applied many of Sunzi's strategems and proved to be highly successful to put a world power in its place.
It seems "you are the least one to know"....lol
Seems you are the last one to know. LOL!
In the Know
- 2018-03-29
Agreed!
The region is full of the foreign influence. SA is the western bitch while Iran refuses to bend over.
Chinese Scholar
- 2018-03-29
Challenging Silverboy's ignorance is a good thing but he will never admit to guesswork. His simple way of seeing the world is that the Art of War is an old Chinese book and Confucianism is an old "philosophy" so there must be a connection. Maybe he gets his BC and AD dates mixed up as he tries to appear to be intelligent but, without the Doctor to back him up, he just flounders in his own ignorance.
Notice in his reply to you how he moves the goalposts by writing about collectivism. Challenge him on this and he will without question tell us he's not interested in Chinese history.
Rubbish man
- 2018-03-29
I personally agree with that part of your input. But my disgust is far less for their religion than for the lack of democracy and the rule of law. Sharia instead of the rule of secular law is BS!!!!!!!
Saudi and other Arab and Muslim states are really disgusting though
I also agree with that bit on women.
Homosexuals are also looked down upon in many Western societies by larger parts of the population there.
.- look at the way they treat homosexuals and women
Silverboy
- 2018-03-29
Anything based on collective principles is a failure. Any society based on collectivism like China is also useless and a failure.
Seems you are the last one to know. LOL!
In the Know
- 2018-03-29
You are entitled to your opinion. But an "opinion" that is based on ignorance has no value whatsoever and should n't be paid any attention to.
FYI, Sunzi's Art of War was written long before Confucianism ever appeared for the first time in Chinese history,lol.
"Art of War" is a load of rubbish. So is anything else that is based upon useless Confucianism principles.
Silverboy
- 2018-03-29
"Art of War" is a load of rubbish. So is anything else that is based upon useless Confucianism principles.
Westerners have absolutely nothing to learn from the Chinese. I'll say it again, an inferior race.
Arthur
- 2018-03-29
For those who are familiar with doing "business" in Saudi or interested in what is going on in Saudi this week (the big show called The Future Investment Initiative), I highly recommend the 2016 Tom Hank movie "A hologram for the king".. Totally hilarious but in a subtle way (I kept laughing under my mustache during the whole 1.5 hours)
Brock The Badger
- 2018-03-29
Saudi isn't the next China because they still have a culture and good personal hygiene.
It's a lick-and-a-promise hygiene culture where you religiously wash your hands and feet every day and leave the really dirty bits to fester. The Chinese do the same. Saudi and other Arab and Muslim states are really disgusting though- look at the way they treat homosexuals and women. They are light years behind the Chinese and want to drag everybody else back into the dark ages.
Brock The Badger
- 2018-03-29
Why are you trying to compare China to Saudi Arabia? Apart from both being brutal dictatorships they have nothing in common.
Well said. They will chop your head off sooner than look at you in Saudi- and that's maybe because you touched a bloke's hip accidentally in a bar.
caring
- 2018-03-29
The region is full of the foreign influence. SA is the western bitch while Iran refuses to bend over.
Oil, while being replaced with alternate energy sources around the world, will most likely ran out in the nation soon. This is why SA may go down soon. On the other hand, the SA economic strives out of which the country plans to develop a gigantic mega city (a few times larger than NY) points to attempts to draw reasonable objectives. Taking advantage of oil while it is valuable and around may be feasible for the drying nation.Saudi Arabia's oil company, Aramco, is supposed go public second half of 2018 (Saudi needs money to try to transition to a diversified economy). Possible valuation: US$2 Trillion. That's a lot of money! Just the fees of the IPO might be in the order of US$1 Billion (New York and London exchanges are both hoping to be given the IPO). Those of you who taught in Saudi Arabia, how do you feel about the diversification: Will it work?
There truly is an example of meddling in the middle east affairs. SA, for good reasons compliant politically with the White House, is one of the largest business partners to the US when it comes to oil and arms trades. Trump's plans to onload the overproduced weaponry on the right state and to go back on the Iranian deal were the reasons he jumped on that plane so quickly. He needed to balance the sheets and cancel as much as possible from his predecessor's work (Obama). Anyhow, we're talking about a largely corrupt issues of the world here into which one man's bitterness about his previous commander in chief is brought in.Such grand plans require Iran to be contained. The first country that trump visited after his inauguration was Saudi Arabia. His attempts to cancel the nuclear deal with Iran and probably start a war with Iran would keep Iran busy and would give more space to Saudi Arabia.
Most likely SA is not that nation as it lacks the diversity and magnitude that China has. Moreover, the fact that SA is put against Iran which is the second largest economy in the region may weaken the country more than strengthen it. Iran is not going to slow down for the American sentiments and it has a supporter in China too. The world is splitting in two much bigger parts than before the iron curtain fall and SA, just as Turkey or Ukraine are, is somehow bordering the East and West.Is Saudi Arabia the next China?
Curious
- 2018-03-29
Keep posting, Turnoi. Your geopolitical posts are always interesting.
In the Know
- 2018-03-29
Trump is remarkably ignorant of so many things. He hasn't read Sunzi's Art of War (Sunzi Bingfa) either that deals with strategems or strategical principles in case of war and conflict resolution in civil life,
Globally, if Trump is so one-sided to disregard Iran and concentrate on fighting Iranian influence, then he will open up another field of mess that may endanger world peace and global stability in future to come. Most of current Islamist-stimulated terrorism comes from the Sunni site of Islam, and from the Salafist-Wahabite interpretation of (Sunni) Islam followed in Saudi Arabia. Shia terrorism, if at all, is marginal in comparison.
If Iran would recant from its public announcement of destroying Israel, things would look a lot different, and Trump's irrational and absolutely crazy approach would be much more clearly to see for many more people than now.
Such grand plans require Iran to be contained. The first country that trump visited after his inauguration was Saudi Arabia. His attempts to cancel the nuclear deal with Iran and probably start a war with Iran would keep Iran busy and would give more space to Saudi Arabia.
SuperKupo
- 2018-03-29
Saudi isn't the next China because they still have a culture and good personal hygiene.
FTinPRC
- 2018-03-29
Is
Saudi Arabia the next China?
Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia. Shia Shiite. Israeli Palestinian. Oil wealth and itinerant immigrant labor.
The Middle East has conflicts as old as human society that are now conflated with nuclear power and vast inventories of U.S. and Russian armaments.
Southeast Asia is a Garden of Eden compared to the Middle East. For U.S. Christian fundamentalists that are hoping for the arrival of Armageddon in their life time, Trump groping a Glowing Orb in Mecca in anticipation of an Aramco IPO is a 3-D trailer for their final divine film.
Silverboy
- 2018-03-29
Why are you trying to compare China to Saudi Arabia? Apart from both being brutal dictatorships they have nothing in common.
Saudi Arabia's oil company, Aramco, is supposed go public second half of 2018 (Saudi needs money to try to transition to a diversified economy). Possible valuation: US$2 Trillion. That's a lot of money! Just the fees of the IPO might be in the order of US$1 Billion (New York and London exchanges are both hoping to be given the IPO). Those of you who taught in Saudi Arabia, how do you feel about the diversification: Will it work? Is Saudi Arabia the next China?
Such grand plans require Iran to be contained. The first country that trump visited after his inauguration was Saudi Arabia. His attempts to cancel the nuclear deal with Iran and probably start a war with Iran would keep Iran busy and would give more space to Saudi Arabia.