Re: Discrimination and what have you!

> These posts need some humor - please everyone, can't we just get
> along?

> The words of Rodney King , a black American(although not exactly
> Martin Luther King, Jr.)
> ------

> You're Right. We need a humor break. It worths mentioning that Rodney
> King and MLK found a way to get l_id at home. without unnecessarily
> travel abroad. Laugh..............

After finishing reading all your posts, I am wandering who is discriminating whom.

I was born in China. After having taught English for more than 10 years in Taiwan, I emigrated to Canada, qualified and got the certificates, and taught Math, Computer Science and Adult Tesl for 25 years. Now I am retired and thought to repatriate what I got from, and then found I am discriminated against for being too old, not a "native born speaker", face is not PALE enough...

I would say there is an reverse-discrimination.

There used to have quite a few famous diplomats, scientists, inventors in Chinese contemporary history, but in Athletics, Music, etc, people thought that Chinese have to go to learn from the West. Before the Bamboo Curtain raised, most of the musicians and artists learnt from the West. China had never won a gold in the Olympic Games. But now, most of the winners, in Olympics and on the stages, were trained by Chinese. Why the Chinese are deprived of their ways of learning languages and have to be taught by a "native born speaker"?

I was born in China and brought up in a remote town. I still remember my teachers' atypical English pronunciation, but that didn't hinder my learning. I had never been taught by a "native born speaker". I didn't have any of the luxuries for learning a language before, but I managed to have the language learnt and passed all sorts of Exams and the intensive interviews for professionals.

I have been thinkng that there has been kinds of culture invasion scheme there. I was approached for problem solving by those so called "native" foreign teachers. I do appreciate, from the bottom of my heart, the thousands of those experts who have helped my motherland developing, but uncertified and unqualified illiterated "natives" were here to help solving the unemployment problems in their own countries in the name of cultural exchanging diplomacy. China spend billions on that, and the results? All the experts know. The proof is in Hong Kong where since 1998, the over all hiring of "native born speaker" made the students' marks dropped considerably on all the courses. Who is to blame? The colonialists! Now, the Chinese bureaucrates are learning from HK: Bribry, Language Education, etc. At the same time, foreign drifters are paid to bring in disrepectable attitude to local social orders, unwedded sexual relationships, HIV, abnormal and irresponsible behaviors, etc.

In the last 5 years after my retirement, I taught in 5 universities and had travelled quite extensively. I am very happy that I had don't some help to the students. They keep sending email to me, greetings and problem solving. Students likes me, the administrators hated me. I asked the school to stock the libraries with English/English dictionaries, but they only let the students in when I was present. They hired me as a foreign teacher, yet some try to treat me differently. Some even re-imbursed partially my flight ticket. I am still happy to have done my part.

Alex

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

> You're right Zac. Finito!

Sandra,

Good job of getting rid the boots guy. Hopefully the next person to get rid of him is his wife.

I'll have a drink to celebrate....

Cheers!

Zac

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

> Wow. As I said in the blog, my report refers to more than one person,
> but you still found lots to shout about in your defense. Interesting!

> As for marriage? Well, I AM aware of the situation in China. All I
> can say is that my partner and I were honest with the authorities
> regarding this before coming and they saw no problem. We are of
> course mindful of the restraints for others and act appropriately.
> That is, with decency and respect while we are guests in China. There
> was no way that I was going to get married prior to coming, when I do
> not wish to do so. Would you expect that? We were honest and China
> accepted us. It's not the same situation, but what advice would you
> give someone who wanted to come to China who was gay? I'd be
> interested in your logic.

> I've had a great time here. I came to teach and yes, I have not
> taught before. It was a way for me to live and work in another
> country. It is not my vocation or reason to be. I have always been
> honest about this.

> But you know what? I've loved it. Students have enjoyed the lessons
> and guess what? I can tell that their English has improved. Success!
> How about that! I think that's what I was employed to do. Actions you
> see. It's what you do that counts.

Which is exactly what I have been doing for 27 years - teaching students. Many students have come back to me years later and told me how much they learned from my classes. I have had a great time everywhere I have been,too - with the exception of Nanyang.

Some of what you wrote was about me and some of it might have been. Of course, I will defend myself in such a situation - isn't that what you just did here? I believe that there are two sides to every story - and you told one in a scathing way. I simply responded with the part of the story that you either could not know, chose not to know, or ignored(which of these apply, only your conscience knows). The fact that the people in Nanyang were willing to accept your blatant disregard of Chinese law and custom only adds to my complaints against them.

I notice you didnt respond to the difference between 27 years of success and one year of success nor to the difference between being qualified and being unqualified. I would not have expected a response because you have no argument. apparently, one post enabled you to learn that. There is hope for you yet.

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

Wow. As I said in the blog, my report refers to more than one person, but you still found lots to shout about in your defense. Interesting!

As for marriage? Well, I AM aware of the situation in China. All I can say is that my partner and I were honest with the authorities regarding this before coming and they saw no problem. We are of course mindful of the restraints for others and act appropriately. That is, with decency and respect while we are guests in China. There was no way that I was going to get married prior to coming, when I do not wish to do so. Would you expect that? We were honest and China accepted us. It's not the same situation, but what advice would you give someone who wanted to come to China who was gay? I'd be interested in your logic.

I've had a great time here. I came to teach and yes, I have not taught before. It was a way for me to live and work in another country. It is not my vocation or reason to be. I have always been honest about this.

But you know what? I've loved it. Students have enjoyed the lessons and guess what? I can tell that their English has improved. Success! How about that! I think that's what I was employed to do. Actions you see. It's what you do that counts.

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

> Sandra, don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.

> Zac

Zac, I am wondering what that comment means. Is it a slang that I just don't understand?

Seriously, I am asking because I want to know. :)

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

> Sleep easy. You don't 'appear', but take a look.

> Thanks for your good wishes, but I'm not married!

I thought the Mike you mentioned was your husband, but apparently that was an error on my part.

To answer your blog - because I did indeed appear even if you didn't use my name.

I confess to the Pig remark - that was rude and out of line.

Nothing I said to the colleagues you mentioned was racist or sexist - I criticized them because of their inactions and their constant excuses for their inactions.

No one living in my flat threw a toilet paper roll down the toilet - we didn't even have a toilet most of the time.

The "row" you mentioned you said caused your Coca-Cola lambasted colleague to worry about my wife's safety. Actually my wife and I were not even having an argument but were telling jokes that got out of hand (noise wise) apparently. SHE was not worried for her safety and I deplore your assumption that she needed to be worried. To call that an argument was one of several mischaracterizations in your blog (which you basically lied to get me to read, it appears.)

As far as not going to class is concerned, my attending class is based on my contract. I was to teach class and the school was to provide the following:

1) Immediate re-imbursement of our travel funds to reach Nanyang.

2) A Western-style working toilet

3) A flat with a running shower

None of these were provided- the school broke the contract and I was no longer obligated to keep my end of the contract. I went on "strike" and Dean Wang denied that this was ever a tactic used in the West to get management to treat labor properly. He was, of course, as were you, wrong in this characterization.

As far as the key situation is concerned, the school broke the contract unilaterally. This was, in essence, a firing. The school - by Chinese law - must pay one month's salary for this breech of contract. They did not do this. No one was demanding any ransom for the key, but simply the pay the school owed me.

As far as the idea that one cannot legitimately criticize without being called a racist or a sexist is concerned, pardon me, but your notions on that are ridiculous.

I still hold with the idea that a Chinese woman is a much better judge of what constitutes racism and sexism towards a Chinese woman than is , say, for example, an English citizen. I also believe that the cry of racism and sexism is a simple and devastingly easy one to make. I also believe that it is legitimate when accused wrongly of such pejorative terms that one can and should certainly defend one self and it is legitimate to point out the number of Chinese and women who would find such an accusation of me both laughable and inexcusable.

If Zheng Ping had been a man and white and still did what she did, I would have criticized her just as much and with just as much reason. My wife - who is both female and Chinese - also criticized Zheng Ping - does that make her a racist and a sexist? A sexist against her own sex and a racist against her own race?

As far as reductions to tears are concerned, my wife and I did quite a lot of crying ourselves because of the way we were treated by Zheng Ping, her assistant, and Dean Wang. Dean Wang lied to a man we were told was the President of the college in a meeting- he then threw a temper tantrum and left the room. Later, my wife and I met with this man -who told us he wanted us to stay at the college and asked what conditions we would want. I had told him earlier that I wanted Zheng Ping fired - he had said that was impossible because of school regulations. My wife and I told him we wanted a Western-style working toilet, which was advertised in their job ad. We both requested that Dean Wang apologize to me for having called me a liar on numerous occasions- some of which were witnessed by the President. The president sympathized with us and was willing to make the request of Dean Wang, but my wife and I decided we had had enough of this treatment and thanked him for listening.

I hope the teacher who supposedly wanted back after a week after quitting was not intended to be me - because that would be a very big mischaracterization (notice how I am avoiding the word lie).

I also wondered about whether the trashed the flat comment referred to us. Our flat was never cleaned up when we came in - the toilet was ripped out by the workmen, and was sitting in our LIVING ROOM when we left while we had a "wonderful" hole (not even a Chinese style toilet, but a HOLE!) where the toilet was supposed to be.

Dean Wang bragged that he had made a teacher named Maria cry and she still came to class. That all the teachers came to class no matter what went wrong. He seemed proud that he was able to abuse foreign teachers and that they would take his abuse. My wife and I refused to take his abuse - and I refuse to take yours, Sandra.

As I have told you in our private e-mails, you only heard part of the story. I didn't really feel the rest was worth getting into, but when you attacked me(anonymously but pretty obviously to anyone who has read my posts about Nanyang), I was not about to leave such abuse unanswered.

I have a question for you,too. I know that at least two of the people you attacked were white male Americans. By your standards, I could now call you a racist, a sexist,a nationalist, and even a xenophobe.

But I realize that is ridiculous - although if you are thinking of ever being a good teacher, you might want to realize that every story has two sides to it - and you only heard one. I certainly hope you do not use the same techniques if there is ever a disagreement between two of your students.

As far as criticizing teacher's experiences and credentials is concerned, would you do the same if you were dealing with a doctor or a lawyer or would you prefer the inexperienced practitioner? I have found that those criticizing a teacher's experience and credentials rarely have any of their own to refer to.

As far as the references to not knowing their arse from their elbow and the social graces of an irate rhino, please tell me who it is that made this highly negative post that I am replying to. Please tell me why I taught at the same school in the USA for seven years at the university-level and in the same school system for ten years at the middle school level if these schools had serious problems with me. Don't resort to any comments about the unions- neither of these two places had unions. Each contract was for one year and I signed sixteen of them. If I am such a bad teacher, why am I constantly employed for 27 years with two schools(systems) accounting for over 60% of that employment?

A first-year teacher who has taught one place and has had nothing to compare it to attacks a teacher with 27 years experience in the USA, South Korea, China,and Turkey and who has masters degrees in education and English. I am proud of my accomplishments and that is why I mention them. If you had any similar accomplishments, I have litte doubt that you woudl mention them,too.

Which teacher is the inexperienced one? Which teacher has nothing to compare her/his experience to? Which teacher has never taught before - and is LEAVING the one school she taught at after one year? Which teacher continues to teach having signed another contract at a Chinese university(Sichuan Agricultural University) that is quite satisfied with his teaching?

I do agree with one thing you said - you will never understand.

I have not had to resort to any bad-mouthing of Nanyang Teachers College(aka Nanyang Normal College) because simply stating what occurred is much more effective.

The same holds true in replying to Sandra's post.

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

> I am looking forward to that blog you are talking about. Will I be in
> it? Hmmm, if it becomes a movie, I want royalities! (that's a joke-
> mostly!) Take care and I wish you and your husband the best.

> (Yeah,folks, my wife is Chinese. I guess the people at the site here
> know that already. :)

Sleep easy. You don't 'appear', but take a look.

Thanks for your good wishes, but I'm not married!

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

> The mayority of the time I find discrimination being an excuse for
> personal needs e.g. It did/will not succeed. As with anything else,
> you have to take the good with the bad. Futher more; It's just common
> sense! If you think you're fat, you probably are. Don't ask us.

> A cheerful attitude is more important than anything else it's what
> sells.

> KWAKO
> Ghana

> PS Nice talking to you.

Kwako, when did you escape from the mad house?

Alvin

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

> What discrimination? Don't cut your hair. Ever. Just keep quiet and
> nobody will notice.

> KWAKO
> Ghana

I don't know if this applies to you but please don't take it personally. Cynicism is no answer. It's not even a defence. It's just that discrimination, in whatever form, is abhorrent - yet, there are countless people who have faced it and continue to do so.

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

Discrimination is what it is and does not imply one's loss of the 'right' to like or dislike people, but when the 'dislike', in particular, is
on account of one's race, nationality, colour sex and so on, it becomes DISCRIMINATION - and yes, in capitals.
Jack

> I really do believe it is possible to dislike some people of a race
> or some people of a sex without being a racist or a sexist.
> Basically, we shouldn't judge at all, but (being human) we probably
> will. When we judge, we should judge on what we've seen and
> experienced. I have met people of all races I haven't liked (and yes
> I am sure there are people of all races that don't like me,too), but
> that doesn't make me(or them) racists. Same thing goes with sex,
> nationality, religion, or any other category you want to name. You
> are very right, Sandra that people often do act in China (and
> probably in other countries as well) in ways they wouldn't in their
> native countries. There is a reason for this - they are not in their
> native countries. Some times this behavior is negative, but sometimes
> they act more positively then they would in their native
> countries,too.

> I am looking forward to that blog you are talking about. Will I be in
> it? Hmmm, if it becomes a movie, I want royalities! (that's a joke-
> mostly!) Take care and I wish you and your husband the best.

> (Yeah,folks, my wife is Chinese. I guess the people at the site here
> know that already. :)

Hello Sandrab

Nice meeting you! Dangerous things come in the prettiest of packages; Just to say that you sound Awesome! let's keep in touch.

KWAKO

Re: Discrimination and what have you!

> Great post Jack.

> I've been horrified at people's (Westerner's) behaviour while I've
> been in China (further details will appear on the blog section soon).
> What's more, when challenged, they are clearly unaware of their
> racist and sexist beahviour. They bleat about how they have lots of
> Chinese friends / have a Chinese partner etc etc, when they treat
> them with very little respect.

> Basically, they wouldn't be allowed to get away with the things they
> say and do at home, but feel free to do so overseas.

> As 'Finchy' says in "The Office' (Brit comedy- apols for those
> of you who don't know it)....'How can I hate women? My mum's
> one"

> They have so little insight, it's untrue.

> This site sums them up- just substitute as necessary!

I really do believe it is possible to dislike some people of a race or some people of a sex without being a racist or a sexist. Basically, we shouldn't judge at all, but (being human) we probably will. When we judge, we should judge on what we've seen and experienced. I have met people of all races I haven't liked (and yes I am sure there are people of all races that don't like me,too), but that doesn't make me(or them) racists. Same thing goes with sex, nationality, religion, or any other category you want to name. You are very right, Sandra that people often do act in China (and probably in other countries as well) in ways they wouldn't in their native countries. There is a reason for this - they are not in their native countries. Some times this behavior is negative, but sometimes they act more positively then they would in their native countries,too.

I am looking forward to that blog you are talking about. Will I be in it? Hmmm, if it becomes a movie, I want royalities! (that's a joke- mostly!) Take care and I wish you and your husband the best.

(Yeah,folks, my wife is Chinese. I guess the people at the site here know that already. :)

> http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

Discrimination and what have you!

Hi everyone! This is my first time here, being new to this site. I couldn't help noticing lots of angst, rancour and the like as I read through the posts. I'd like to share a few thoughts with everyone here, being an interested party, in the sense that I, too, am a foreign teacher in China.
Discrimination, unfortunately, exists everywhere though its expression and intensity may vary. Unfortunately, also, discrimination is perhaps, as old as society is. But that does not mean it is right or acceptable or even to be condoned. What bothers is that even those who ought to know better, those who have had the previlege of an education continue to practice it. I suspect, in most such cases it is due to something very basic viz. self-interest. Discrimination in one of its most horrendous forms takes the gender route, especially seen when one views history, and which civilization, generally speaking has not practiced some form of it? Have not women been maltreated by men of all hues for centuries? The other one is racial or national discrimination - another instance of what must rank amongst man's most despicable acts.
A few questions to think over for those who might want to: Are people of any race better than those of another - intellectually or otherwise? Please look into history and think about how different countries or races have dominated at different times and how no one's domination lasted interminably. What that means is no current domination will last too long either.
What are nations or countries? Aren't they merely man-made boundaries that wax and wane like tides? Was ever any man born of the earth? Aren't countries populated by people who migrated from another place or people whose ancestors did?
Aren't those that discriminate victims of a basic instinct, who have evolved neither intellectually nor culturally nor emotionally. Perhaps, those who are still bound to such instincts are little more than monkeys in the cloak of human bodies.

Re: this is crazy.

> Kwako, Solomon. For what are you apologizing? The right to live is
> the same for everyone; it should be applied in the same way to all,no
> matter what color, race you are. I am white. I am not one of them
> overhere down envious of other successful-happy people with different
> colors.

> Charles - just a teacher.

The right to live is the same for everyone, no matter what color, race you are, EXCEPT FOR WOMEN, is that what you are saying?