Mike B
- 2004-07-13
> - You could try coming into work in a skirt, and a lot of makeup! ;-)
I might be willing to try that, but I don't think I could stand the chest waxing, LOL.
boots43
- 2004-07-12
> - You could try coming into work in a skirt, and a lot of makeup! ;-)
lol, Dos good to see some humor here. thanks for putting a smile on my face.
Dos
- 2004-07-12
> My question, I am just over 40 and an Australian citizen, how happy
> would I be working for someone who wanted a 23 year-old Canadian
> woman?
- You could try coming into work in a skirt, and a lot of makeup! ;-)
boots43
- 2004-07-12
> I suspect that schools who want white faces are mostly making a
> purely business decision, from what I have read Korean parents want
> to see a white face "teaching" their children so the school
> owners almost always ask for a photo with your job application.
> As to why American or Canadian white faces are better than Australian
> (cries softly) or British faces it is because Koreans have more
> contact with North American businesses etc than with British or
> Antipodean ones, and assume American English is more relevant.
> My question, I am just over 40 and an Australian citizen, how happy
> would I be working for someone who wanted a 23 year-old Canadian
> woman? Better to take their prejudices in stride and look for a job
> where I will be appreciated.
You have a good point there Mike. One thing I do when the prejudice is rampant - particularly on lines of sex and age(two that often push aside this 50 year-old male) is send them my credentials, anyways, with a comment on what they are missing simply because they don't value experience or because they think that a penus somehow disqualifies someone from teaching well.
Anne Wang
- 2004-07-11
> Cor blimey guv! Anne is a Cockney! Apples and pears, it's a real pea
> souper and no mistake!
> Hehe! ;-)
> (In my mind your post came over in a London accent...)
Haha.. I'm totally lost me self. I do use a lot of American Spelling Like color,favor,humor and many others with the "U" or with one of the "L" missing and like bicycle tire/tyre, I use the former, I had my Chinese English pulling her hair off during my first year in University LOL
I am so use to using "me", like me books, me friends, me teachers and so on, and I use the British way for things like,tele, brolly (umbrella)lift,chips,petrol,cinema,flyover,trousers,chemist,hire.
I pronounce, tomato, can't,fast,last going to(gonna) the American way. My former chinese English teacher had a lot of problem understanding my English, she tried telling me to pronounce things the British way, especially can/can't, as she couldn't figure out which is which. But I rather stick with the American, as the latter sounds like CUN... :)(you know what that is)LOL
Lord, me and my "salad" English.
Mike B
- 2004-07-11
> Questions, sir - many questions...each leading to yet more...
I suspect that schools who want white faces are mostly making a purely business decision, from what I have read Korean parents want to see a white face "teaching" their children so the school owners almost always ask for a photo with your job application.
As to why American or Canadian white faces are better than Australian (cries softly) or British faces it is because Koreans have more contact with North American businesses etc than with British or Antipodean ones, and assume American English is more relevant.
My question, I am just over 40 and an Australian citizen, how happy would I be working for someone who wanted a 23 year-old Canadian woman? Better to take their prejudices in stride and look for a job where I will be appreciated.
DoS
- 2004-07-11
Cor blimey guv! Anne is a Cockney! Apples and pears, it's a real pea souper and no mistake!
Hehe! ;-)
(In my mind your post came over in a London accent...)
> You're spot on, mate.
> Holy Mackerel, I've had six American teachers in my Middle School
> days. In University I've had British, Canadian Indian, Singapore,
> British Nigerians, Cameroonian, and yes mate, Australian teachers.
> So, what do you make of me English, mate?. Man, I can't figure it out
> myself. Holy Christ, what should I call me English?
> "Vegetables salad" English is what I'm gonna call mine.
> LOL.
> Thank god, It's a blessing that I've had teachers from all over, at
> least I'm able to tell the difference between British and American
> English.
Anne Wang
- 2004-07-10
>
> As for the 'type' of English. Well, I have had Chinese come up to me
> (plenty of times)and ask "Should I learn English English or
> American English?" I reply that you should just "Learn
> English" If you speak US.E or E.E you will be understood no
> matter. *Trying* to put on an accent is just plain silly, though some
> students do pick up accents from teachers if they have them for a
> long time. Most Chinese students have a Chinese accent!
You're spot on, mate.
Holy Mackerel, I've had six American teachers in my Middle School days. In University I've had British, Canadian Indian, Singapore, British Nigerians, Cameroonian, and yes mate, Australian teachers.
So, what do you make of me English, mate?. Man, I can't figure it out myself. Holy Christ, what should I call me English?
"Vegetables salad" English is what I'm gonna call mine. LOL.
Thank god, It's a blessing that I've had teachers from all over, at least I'm able to tell the difference between British and American English.
Jack Kanoi
- 2004-07-10
> I think most schools in Japan and Korea and other places don't hire
> other nationals due to visa restrictions, since only a few nationals
> can get the work visa in these countries, but you'll also find other
> schools in Japan and Korea etc that reject other native speakers for
> various unknown reasons. I've met some black South Africans that
> couldnt get jobs in Korea.
> Even though the Chinese government issues visa to various nationals,
> some schools still reject other qualified English teachers for
> unknown reasons, maybe racist reasons or due to accents. The first
> question most schools ask if you call for a job is " where are u
> from? " a few will ask "are u black or white? " or
> "send your photo". They'll sometimes disqualify you just
> for these reasons regardless of your experiences or qualifications.
> I think the best approach is not to be bothered about discriminatory
> schools, if you apply and they turn u down for no good reasons, just
> forget about them and move on, If you're qualified with some
> experience, there'll always be some other schools that will hire for
> what u know or can do, not just where you're from or how you look.
> They claim that only native speakers can teach English, but since
> teaching is a skill that is learned, (no one is born a teacher) so
> its just silly to say only a few people can teach English. Some of
> those people do not or fail to acknowledge that therere even other
> English speaking countries. Of most TESL methodology books that I
> know, Ive not found in any that states only native speakers should
> teach English. Almost all these books stress that trained and
> qualified teachers should teach English whether they're native or
> non-native speakers
> The funny thing is, there are even some qualified non-native speakers
> that are teaching English in English -speaking countries like the US,
> Canada, Australia and so on, so its just nave if some countries
> insist on native speakers only.
You're right Solomon, but my question was less about me as I have had no serious problem on the score. The university where I have been teaching this past year wants me to continue but, being a writer with a fair bit of published work in China, I'd like to explore other cities in China and perhaps, other countries too...just so as to continue absorbing new ideas about and from diferent cultures and to write, if I can. That was what brought me to China in the first instance and that is what I'd like to continue doing. Since it's difficult to make a living on writing alone, especially if one wants to travel, I chose to teach. Fortunately, for me, wherever I have taught I have earned my keep and none of the schools I was at wanted me to discontinue there, offering each time to extend my contract.
The questions are more on account of an empirical interest and to induce some serious discussion.
Solomon Konneh
- 2004-07-10
I think most schools in Japan and Korea and other places don't hire other nationals due to visa restrictions, since only a few nationals can get the work visa in these countries, but you'll also find other schools in Japan and Korea etc that reject other native speakers for various unknown reasons. I've met some black South Africans that couldnt get jobs in Korea.
Even though the Chinese government issues visa to various nationals, some schools still reject other qualified English teachers for unknown reasons, maybe racist reasons or due to accents. The first question most schools ask if you call for a job is " where are u from? " a few will ask "are u black or white? " or "send your photo". They'll sometimes disqualify you just for these reasons regardless of your experiences or qualifications.
I think the best approach is not to be bothered about discriminatory schools, if you apply and they turn u down for no good reasons, just forget about them and move on, If you're qualified with some experience, there'll always be some other schools that will hire for what u know or can do, not just where you're from or how you look.
They claim that only native speakers can teach English, but since teaching is a skill that is learned, (no one is born a teacher) so its just silly to say only a few people can teach English. Some of those people do not or fail to acknowledge that therere even other English speaking countries. Of most TESL methodology books that I know, Ive not found in any that states only native speakers should teach English. Almost all these books stress that trained and qualified teachers should teach English whether they're native or non-native speakers
The funny thing is, there are even some qualified non-native speakers that are teaching English in English -speaking countries like the US, Canada, Australia and so on, so its just nave if some countries insist on native speakers only.
Jack Kanoi
- 2004-07-10
> I guess that the rational behind it is that native speakers will have
> the 'best' English. Of course, that is open to plenty of
> interpretation, but they will be more familiar with it as it is their
> first language.
> **PLEASE NOTE** Before you start having a go at me about how racist I
> am, I am not saying that a native speaker makes a good teacher!!
> A good teacher can be native or non native, the qualities vary from
> person to person. Okay?! Don't dump on me about the rules and the
> fairness of it all, talk to the Chinese authorities and customers. I
> know already!
> As for the 'type' of English. Well, I have had Chinese come up to me
> (plenty of times)and ask "Should I learn English English or
> American English?" I reply that you should just "Learn
> English" If you speak US.E or E.E you will be understood no
> matter. *Trying* to put on an accent is just plain silly, though some
> students do pick up accents from teachers if they have them for a
> long time. Most Chinese students have a Chinese accent!
And if most Chinese students have a Chinese accent, it's not only fair but pleasant, too - as long as their pronunciation is clear. Accents are not meant to be acquired but they happen, depending on one's environment.
My interest, by the way, is in discussing a question and not in launching a tirade against any individual. If anyone is a racist, a sexist, a philanthropist, an escapist or any other type-ist that's his problem - not mine and my telling him will probably not reform him.
It's true that teachers can be good, whether they're 'native' or 'non-native' but the questions raised remain unanswered. And the question is not about China alone, as in China they're far more open than say, in Korea.
If a student does acquire something of an accent will that make him/her good at English per se? And is 'first language' the same as 'native language'?
Questions, sir - many questions...each leading to yet more...
DoS
- 2004-07-10
I guess that the rational behind it is that native speakers will have the 'best' English. Of course, that is open to plenty of interpretation, but they will be more familiar with it as it is their first language.
**PLEASE NOTE** Before you start having a go at me about how racist I am, I am not saying that a native speaker makes a good teacher!!
A good teacher can be native or non native, the qualities vary from person to person. Okay?! Don't dump on me about the rules and the fairness of it all, talk to the Chinese authorities and customers. I know already!
As for the 'type' of English. Well, I have had Chinese come up to me (plenty of times)and ask "Should I learn English English or American English?" I reply that you should just "Learn English" If you speak US.E or E.E you will be understood no matter. *Trying* to put on an accent is just plain silly, though some students do pick up accents from teachers if they have them for a long time. Most Chinese students have a Chinese accent!
> What's this rule in Korea about hiring only 'native' teachers?
> Surely, such rules exist in other countires, too. I have been reading
> the posts here for some time now and am amazed at the negative
> perception many recruiters, teachers and students share about
> 'native' teachers. One went to the extent of comparing them with
> peasants in China, not that there is anything wrong with peasants.
> Yet, S. Korea in particular, and many schools in China, Vietnam,
> Japan and other countries 'insist' on hiring native teachers. Is it
> because looks sell? Is it because education has become merely a
> business, perhaps, little more than a scam? Is it because the
> language is less important than an accent?
> English is an international language, spoken and used in hundreds of
> countries across the globe. This widespread use of the language has
> served only to enrich English in many ways, making it more vibrant
> and beautiful.
> Unfortunately, these days, there are millions chasing fake accents
> and designer dreams. To me, it sounds pathetic when I come across a
> young Asian with a heart full of aspirations launch hesitantly into
> an English conversation with a North American accent and then trip
> over the simplest words, phrases and grammar. Surely, it's not the
> youths' fault. The crime was committed by another but the price is
> paid by the unwary.
> Please stop this exploitation of the young. They need to be taught
> and treated as students and not merely commodities, a market, a
> statistic.
> They need to learn to communicate and use the language effectively
> with people from all over the world. While an 'accent' may impress a
> few for a while, ultimately it will make the user look silly and
> shallow if there isn't much else to back it up. A ticket printed on
> gold paper will not make the voyage sweeter or safer or more pleasant
> - especially not, when the boat leaks.
What's this rule in Korea about hiring only 'native' teachers? Surely, such rules exist in other countires, too. I have been reading the posts here for some time now and am amazed at the negative perception many recruiters, teachers and students share about 'native' teachers. One went to the extent of comparing them with peasants in China, not that there is anything wrong with peasants. Yet, S. Korea in particular, and many schools in China, Vietnam, Japan and other countries 'insist' on hiring native teachers. Is it because looks sell? Is it because education has become merely a business, perhaps, little more than a scam? Is it because the language is less important than an accent?
English is an international language, spoken and used in hundreds of countries across the globe. This widespread use of the language has served only to enrich English in many ways, making it more vibrant and beautiful.
Unfortunately, these days, there are millions chasing fake accents and designer dreams. To me, it sounds pathetic when I come across a young Asian with a heart full of aspirations launch hesitantly into an English conversation with a North American accent and then trip over the simplest words, phrases and grammar. Surely, it's not the youths' fault. The crime was committed by another but the price is paid by the unwary.
Please stop this exploitation of the young. They need to be taught and treated as students and not merely commodities, a market, a statistic.
They need to learn to communicate and use the language effectively with people from all over the world. While an 'accent' may impress a few for a while, ultimately it will make the user look silly and shallow if there isn't much else to back it up. A ticket printed on gold paper will not make the voyage sweeter or safer or more pleasant - especially not, when the boat leaks.