TEACHERS DISCUSSION FORUM
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#1 Parent dee - 2004-08-13
Re: Learning from our mistakes

> ==============================================

> Dear Dee,

> What you say about playboys and playgirls in the guise of
> "teachers" is, unfortunately, quite true. But, I'm certain
> you would also agree that the majority of individuals venturing to
> the PRC are qualified, sincere, and anxious to get started in an
> exciting new career phase.

YES, I do agree there are many great teachers coming here. I still have to believe that or else how would I ever trust anyone i don't know.

>Of course, it is the few insincere
> individuals who make it most difficult for any educator to be wholly
> accepted by an equally professional employer ... at least, at first.
> It is usually in the beginning stages of one's stay in the PRC that
> most of the more serious problems arise, but the average employer
> probably doesn't want to hear of such difficulties -- not while his
> "imported
> expert" is on trial. Result: too many complaints in the initial
> stages of the contract brands the instructor as a "whiner."

IM not totally sure i understand your point here. I am referring to the "teachers" that do come here & openly state they have another agenda. Then complain to the hard working teachers that they need "help" because they don't know how to prepare. OR those who teach only as a means of finding a girlfriend or wife. (Or I suppose it could be boyfriend or husband). I'm talking about those who are "whiners". Not those just labeled as such. As long as I have been at my school I have seen the staff bend over backwards, going totally against the Chinese way of dealing with employees, and doing everything in their power to make life comfortable for the teachers. Of course there are cultural differences, and let's face it, if the owners & bosses of these schools had perfect English, they would be teaching themselves.

Teachers coming here have to be ready, willing & able to accept the lack of perfect communication while in a foreign country. There are mature ways of dealing with it, not just fighting before you know what you are fighting about.

> #@&! That's a battle the teacher is not likely to win. Therefore, the
> choice is to either stick it out or abandon the contract and attempt
> to return home ... provided, of course, he/she had the good sense to
> purchase a round-trip ticket before leaving. CRIMINY, Folks! We're
> reading about this business much too often to serve The PRC's
> national English learning program any REAL credibility. OF COURSE,
> there are the honorable schools and agencies, but, despite all the
> research and telephone calls, THEY'RE IN CHINA and THE TEACHERS ARE
> WHERE THEY ARE! In MY own case last year, I can well recall having
> received almost constant mail and several telephone calls -- even one
> that cost ME $93 -- of corroboration from my
> "employer-to-be," only to discover (a) I was stranded at
> the Hong Kong Airport and (b) eventually forced to find my own way to
> Schenzhen (including a taxi once I got there) ... all at MY OWN
> expense. That was only the BEGINNING. I won't go into any more of the
> gory details, but I assure you that, at age 66, with a splendid
> 13-year international record in ESL, I had NEVER before suffered
> anywhere near the remorse and economic loss I was forced to endure
> due to an employment-motivated decision. Had I done all the RIGHT
> things in preparation for that position? YES. Had I been treated as a
> professional? You ALREADY know the answer to that one.

That is a terrible situation you have endured. I dont know if i would have come out of it so well.

> As for "trusting your gut" when it comes to choosing an ESL
> employer in the PRC ... hmmm ... that's a tough one. BUT, WAIT! I've
> got it! How asinine I was not to have seen it! (1) You select the
> schools who present the best offers and conditions; (2) You prepare a
> generalized 2 to 3-page detailed questionnaire for them to fill out
> and return; and (3) At the end of such questionnaire you write, in
> BOLD print mind you ...
> "WILL THE REAL CROOKS PLEASE STEP FORWARD AND IDENTIFY
> YOURSELVES?"

Too bad that doesn't work. It is a gamble either way. For teachers & for schools. Let's just keep our fingers crossed that we only end up with the best in both worlds.

> (Oy vay!)

> Good luck.
> Ellis

Good luck to you too. I hope you have found an honest reliable school to settle in.

#2 Parent Ellis E. Seamone - 2004-08-13
Re: Learning from our mistakes

> They are not all crooks. Read contracts, re-read emails, reply often,
> ask lots of questions, & finally trust your gut and go with the school
> that answers all your questions.

==============================================

Dear Dee,

What you say about playboys and playgirls in the guise of "teachers" is, unfortunately, quite true. But, I'm certain you would also agree that the majority of individuals venturing to the PRC are qualified, sincere, and anxious to get started in an exciting new career phase. Of course, it is the few insincere individuals who make it most difficult for any educator to be wholly accepted by an equally professional employer ... at least, at first. It is usually in the beginning stages of one's stay in the PRC that most of the more serious problems arise, but the average employer probably doesn't want to hear of such difficulties -- not while his "imported
expert" is on trial. Result: too many complaints in the initial stages of the contract brands the instructor as a "whiner." #@&! That's a battle the teacher is not likely to win. Therefore, the choice is to either stick it out or abandon the contract and attempt to return home ... provided, of course, he/she had the good sense to purchase a round-trip ticket before leaving. CRIMINY, Folks! We're reading about this business much too often to serve The PRC's national English learning program any REAL credibility. OF COURSE, there are the honorable schools and agencies, but, despite all the research and telephone calls, THEY'RE IN CHINA and THE TEACHERS ARE WHERE THEY ARE! In MY own case last year, I can well recall having received almost constant mail and several telephone calls -- even one that cost ME $93 -- of corroboration from my "employer-to-be," only to discover (a) I was stranded at the Hong Kong Airport and (b) eventually forced to find my own way to Schenzhen (including a taxi once I got there) ... all at MY OWN expense. That was only the BEGINNING. I won't go into any more of the gory details, but I assure you that, at age 66, with a splendid
13-year international record in ESL, I had NEVER before suffered anywhere near the remorse and economic loss I was forced to endure due to an employment-motivated decision. Had I done all the RIGHT things in preparation for that position? YES. Had I been treated as a professional? You ALREADY know the answer to that one.

As for "trusting your gut" when it comes to choosing an ESL employer in the PRC ... hmmm ... that's a tough one. BUT, WAIT! I've got it! How asinine I was not to have seen it! (1) You select the schools who present the best offers and conditions; (2) You prepare a generalized 2 to 3-page detailed questionnaire for them to fill out and return; and (3) At the end of such questionnaire you write, in BOLD print mind you ...
"WILL THE REAL CROOKS PLEASE STEP FORWARD AND IDENTIFY YOURSELVES?"

(Oy vay!)

Good luck.
Ellis

#3 Parent dee - 2004-08-13
Re: Learning from our mistakes

I agree youdid the right thing, learned from a mistake. I hope new teachers read these messages so they know what to beware of. I will be sure to clearly state what our school offers when looking for new teachers. (My school always pays overtime in the summer & often gives us bonuses for working hard)

There are so many teachers needed now in China, its sad that many will be discouraged because of the horror stories. If any new grads are reading, please believe there are some GREAT teaching jobs available now in China. They are not all crooks. Read contracts, re-read emails, reply often, ask lots of questions, & finally trust your gut and go with the school that answers all your questions.

IN RESPONSE TO:

> Too many people go overseas, get themselves into trouble then just

> run away. And I'm not only talking about work contracts here, LOL.

For the new "teachers" that are coming to China to escape whatever in your own country, please don't waste the time of the good serious schools that need teachers to teach...not just oogle the young girls, or want to play, or sleep in bed all day.

Im so tired of dealing with teachers who come to a good, honest, trustworthy school, are treated very well & then still whine because they actually have to do work here. It's too bad that all the losers don't get stuck with these loser schools. That would be justice.

Take Care & Happy Teaching to the real teachers out there.

#4 Parent DoS - 2004-08-08
Contracts.

Who is the more stupid? The person who writes the contract, or the person who agrees and signs it and THEN complains about it?

I am always amazed when I see people who come here and *never* question or even read the contract. I realise there are schools that don't take the thing seriously, but even so, you can't complain when you agreed to do it.

My advice: Read the contract VERY CAREFULLY. Not once, not twice, but lots. If there are things in doubt, go over the points with the school BEFORE you sign. Make adjustments/additions where required.

Better still, get the contract before you go, print it out and sign the one you printed out (after any amendments).

Keep a copy in a safe place and sign EVERY page.

Good luck!

> Would you willingly sign a contract that may say that you have to
> work an extra day per week during the peak summer season and/or teach
> a few extra hours a week FOR NO MORE PAY?!

> Speaking with the benefit of hindsight, I would say that it is
> utterly ludicrous for private language schools to insist that their
> teachers be made to do more for no more pay just because it happens
> to be the peak season when more students come to study. Yet there are
> plenty of expatriates who have signed a full-time contract which says
> in effect that they must do more work for no more plenty during
> the very time when one would think that teachers should receive more
> money for more teaching.

> After all, summer is the peak time when private language schools
> generate more than enough revenue to satisfy even the greediest of
> investors and yet the successes of summer schools are based mostly
> on the sweat, frustration, fatigue and tears of full-timers who have
> signed contracts which condemn them to work more for no more money
> (to a certain extent).

> I had signed two 12-month contracts for a private school, a
> franchisee, in which signers were expected to work up to one more day
> per week (six instead of five) and teach up to five more real hours
> per week for NO more money. Having been through the rigors of two
> summer schools, I used to hear bitter mutterings from my fellow
> teachers, who described the situation as sheer slavery. What, they
> asked themselves, possessed them to do something they never would
> have dreamed of doing in a million years back home? Yes, they
> realized that they had signed the contracts, and signing implies that
> they have read and understood the conditions, and that they therefore
> had to abide by those conditions.

> Of course, these people, undoubtedly hungry to start or continue
> their TEFL career, had been recruited during the off-peak season, a
> time of relatively low teaching loads. Perhaps they thought that
> there was nothing to make a fuss about. An extra five hours of
> teaching a week for no more pay? OK, so long as its just for a few
> weeks Maybe that was something that they didnt fully understand at
> the time yet, by the time they realized that they had to deal with
> more classes full of kids who dont understand and dont want to be
> there and dont want to learn and who want just to talk and talk, it
> was far too late.

> I can be thankful that I have, since February this year, gone over to
> the public sector, which means that I now have the benefit of a full
> summers vacation where, if I teach at a summer school, be it in the
> public or the private sector (and I have done both already this
> summer), I get PAID for EVERY lesson I do, and I mean EVERY. In one
> summer school lasting seven days, I earned the equivalent of a
> MONTHS salary based on what I receive from my public school.

> THIS is what we expatriates should be doing when we come to teach
> English in foreign countries. To me, the private schools, which want
> people to sign up as full-time teachers to do more work in the summer
> for no more money, are guilty of exploitation. I should know, because
> fellow colleagues used to tell me that they felt no better off than
> slaves. Yet, as I said, the conditions were laid out in the contracts
> the summer work conditions came as no surprise to them, and so it
> was basically their own lookout, and they had therefore little choice
> but to swallow their annoyance.

> This is one way of learning about the realities of teaching abroad
> for private language schools. Thank heaven I am no longer in this
> mock-slavery position now if I want to do more, I get PAID
> provided, of course, that the opportunities to do more work exist
> during your well-earned vacation (shop around!). So, fellow
> expatriates, if you feel a little disgruntled this summer because of
> this more-work-and-no-more-pay situation, take heart: your contract
> will eventually expire and you can seek other opportunities where you
> may not have to be in that situation again. I did, and Im more than
> a little grateful for it.

#5 Parent Mike B - 2004-08-06
Learning from our mistakes

Good to see you did the right thing, and that was put up with an unpleasant situation that you got yourself into, learn from the experience and then make the needed changes.

Too many people go overseas, get themselves into trouble then just run away. And I'm not only talking about work contracts here, LOL.

Nice of you to share your experience, and I hope to avoid the same trap.

OurManInHubei - 2004-08-06
Summer can seem like slavery

Would you willingly sign a contract that may say that you have to work an extra day per week during the peak summer season and/or teach a few extra hours a week FOR NO MORE PAY?!

Speaking with the benefit of hindsight, I would say that it is utterly ludicrous for private language schools to insist that their teachers be made to do more for no more pay just because it happens to be the peak season when more students come to study. Yet there are plenty of expatriates who have signed a full-time contract which says in effect that they must do more work for no more plenty during the very time when one would think that teachers should receive more money for more teaching.

After all, summer is the peak time when private language schools generate more than enough revenue to satisfy even the greediest of investors and yet the successes of summer schools are based mostly on the sweat, frustration, fatigue and tears of full-timers who have signed contracts which condemn them to work more for no more money (to a certain extent).

I had signed two 12-month contracts for a private school, a franchisee, in which signers were expected to work up to one more day per week (six instead of five) and teach up to five more real hours per week for NO more money. Having been through the rigors of two summer schools, I used to hear bitter mutterings from my fellow teachers, who described the situation as sheer slavery. What, they asked themselves, possessed them to do something they never would have dreamed of doing in a million years back home? Yes, they realized that they had signed the contracts, and signing implies that they have read and understood the conditions, and that they therefore had to abide by those conditions.

Of course, these people, undoubtedly hungry to start or continue their TEFL career, had been recruited during the off-peak season, a time of relatively low teaching loads. Perhaps they thought that there was nothing to make a fuss about. An extra five hours of teaching a week for no more pay? OK, so long as its just for a few weeks Maybe that was something that they didnt fully understand at the time yet, by the time they realized that they had to deal with more classes full of kids who dont understand and dont want to be there and dont want to learn and who want just to talk and talk, it was far too late.

I can be thankful that I have, since February this year, gone over to the public sector, which means that I now have the benefit of a full summers vacation where, if I teach at a summer school, be it in the public or the private sector (and I have done both already this summer), I get PAID for EVERY lesson I do, and I mean EVERY. In one summer school lasting seven days, I earned the equivalent of a MONTHS salary based on what I receive from my public school.

THIS is what we expatriates should be doing when we come to teach English in foreign countries. To me, the private schools, which want people to sign up as full-time teachers to do more work in the summer for no more money, are guilty of exploitation. I should know, because fellow colleagues used to tell me that they felt no better off than slaves. Yet, as I said, the conditions were laid out in the contracts the summer work conditions came as no surprise to them, and so it was basically their own lookout, and they had therefore little choice but to swallow their annoyance.

This is one way of learning about the realities of teaching abroad for private language schools. Thank heaven I am no longer in this mock-slavery position now if I want to do more, I get PAID provided, of course, that the opportunities to do more work exist during your well-earned vacation (shop around!). So, fellow expatriates, if you feel a little disgruntled this summer because of this more-work-and-no-more-pay situation, take heart: your contract will eventually expire and you can seek other opportunities where you may not have to be in that situation again. I did, and Im more than a little grateful for it.

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