Q. Non-English speakers should be more "apprecitive" of native English teachers correcting their English. Of course they love to correct only those who disagree with them.

Incheon
PS: Nice changed..oops, changes

In Response To: Re: UNRELIABLE NATIVE SPEAKERS (Maitu)

My dear YOU,

Not attempting to top the exquisite responsum rendered to your latest post by my newfound buddy, ESL_IN_ASIA, I find that I must remark on at least a few of your relatively inane statements which crowded my computer screen.

OF COURSE, ESL_IN_ASIA and I made peace! It was inevitable, owing to the fact that we share so much in common. From the very beginning, he and I were the most unlikely prospects to wage WWIII (Christ! There are far too many better prospects present in this forum for that action), while it took a relatively short time for us to realize that fact. As for your obvious homosexual connotations, I'll forgive you for that, mainly because of your obvious steel-mill upbringing and mentality thereof. So, which is it ... are you "b"ritish or "e"nglish? Maybe you're really "u"gandan! #UC*, Laddie, now you've got me hopelessly confused!

In a previous post, I believe you made reference to "any halfwit's merely taking two drum sticks and 'banging things' with them!" WOW! Only a totally ignorant a#s&ho&% with not one iota of savoir faire could ever make such an asinine assertion! Of course, I must merely assume that, along with your already proven shortcomings, you have gigantic ingots of steel in the f*&%in@ cranium forcing you to overlook the years of study and practice it takes to have a career in rock-n-roll, let alone classical music (even as "a mere percussionist"). I'd love to have the money now that my dear father paid out for all those music lessons when I was a kid ... and on a poor college professor's salary at that! You say that you're "much too old" for a career in rock-n-roll? Well, man, from the sound of that diarrhea-like board babbling you shamelessly issue with regularity, I would guess you're much too old for QUITE A FEW things (use your imagination, if any, on that one, Pal)! It's plain to see that George Bush isn't the ONLY one who can s#it out stupidity on a daily basis! And...my God, such braggadocio you throw out for our ingestion ... with such a tone of coercion ... much like Ms. Xi's issuance of official orders from the Ministry! Why don't you give it a rest, Jack ... or go on the road and try to peddle it?! I hear the weather in Iraq is FABULOUS at this time of year!

Finally, it certainly sounds as if you're BEGGING to be further maligned on this board by my buddy and me! Now, REALLY, man ... have those ingots in your head also loosened a few screws? As much as I like the idea, I refuse to further participate in what appears to be an unresolvable situation ... that means YOU, Mac (whatever the hell your name is)!

Have a not-so-nice day!

The Arrogant One

=======================================================

> My my how quickly circumstances change! One minute you two are
> swinging political and historical pickaxes at each other's throats,
> the next, there they are, a picture of conjugal bliss, tongues
> intertwined and dribbling sweet nothings into each others
> mouths...but somehow sex does always feel better after a fight, right
> boys?

> See the point is that both of you have been whining about how little
> you earn,and the fact is that I work professionally and get paid a
> yearly salary equivalent to the mean wage for Education, Training and
> Library occupations in the US (SOC Code Number 25-0000 whatever that
> means according to your goverment's statistical publications). I
> realise that's but a pittance to all those still-employed IT
> professionals and successful musicians out there, but I often really
> enjoy what I do, I get a free apartment in which I don't pay for
> utilities, and I'm living in a country where the cost of living -
> even for me - is probably only about one fifth of the one I'm from.
> Seeing as I really have no expenses other than my enormous restaurant
> and recreational bills - and there's plenty of recreation available
> in this "shanty town" for a single and wayward soul like
> this old moonlighter - I would say that you could at least increase
> that amount by half again in relative terms for you idiots stuck in
> whatever shanty towns you're in trying to pay rent, mortgages,
> electricity bills or for other absurdly overpriced necessities.

> I s'pose I do feel pretty lucky to be in this position - well it
> wasn't all luck; 15 years of professional and educational background
> did help with my being selected for the job - but even if it ended
> tomorrow and I was back at home on the tools again god forbid, I
> would take a perverse pride in saying that I had never worked for
> garbage, and that I hadn't been spending my declining years - because
> lets face it, the both of you have made it quite clear that
> opportunites aren't exactly waxing for you -I hadn't been wasting
> what precious time I have left to enjoy life in indulging my
> insecurities in a sad and bitter tirade against a world that really
> doesn't give a stuff about you and your $6.50 an hour "burger
> flipping" aspirations.

> Oh, and another thing, I find it incredible that a continent that was
> able to produce a writer of the calibre of say Steinbeck in his later
> years, is now more or less chock full of semiliterates for whom the
> production of a grammatical sentence is an impossiblity, with even
> those who can produce language that approximates sense seemingly
> oblivious to the relationship that exists between sound grammar and
> unequivocal meaning...but then again if you really have nothing clear
> and worthwhile to say...

> Look I enjoy the way you two express yourselves when you're having a
> good day, and I'm looking forward to the witty replies I hope you'll
> be able to compose in my honour(come on Arrogant WHOOP-DE-DO?
> seriously...), but it's no secret that the deficit in literacy in
> your fair continent is somewhat more severe than in that of other
> countries in the so-called English speaking world. I mean there's
> just no excuse for any of the incomprehesible nonsense that
> consistently comes out of the mouths of the current US political
> administration...maybe that's got something to do with the serious
> intellectual pressure that a nation would impose upon itself in
> trying to perpetuate the obvious fraud that a hack like Robert Frost
> was a great poet (but i digress)...

> ...anyway...love, peace, rainbows, and emerald-eyed golden-breasted
> birds warbling from verdant boughs to you both...

> Oh!...and I nearly forgot to mention, if you call people
> "british" in some of the establishments where I'm from,
> there's a fair chance you'd be in for a well deserved kicking, so
> stick that up your @($es , oh sorry, donkeys, and flip those burgers
> comrades.

My my how quickly circumstances change! One minute you two are swinging political and historical pickaxes at each other's throats, the next, there they are, a picture of conjugal bliss, tongues intertwined and dribbling sweet nothings into each others mouths...but somehow sex does always feel better after a fight, right boys?

See the point is that both of you have been whining about how little you earn,and the fact is that I work professionally and get paid a yearly salary equivalent to the mean wage for Education, Training and Library occupations in the US (SOC Code Number 25-0000 whatever that means according to your goverment's statistical publications). I realise that's but a pittance to all those still-employed IT professionals and successful musicians out there, but I often really enjoy what I do, I get a free apartment in which I don't pay for utilities, and I'm living in a country where the cost of living - even for me - is probably only about one fifth of the one I'm from. Seeing as I really have no expenses other than my enormous restaurant and recreational bills - and there's plenty of recreation available in this "shanty town" for a single and wayward soul like this old moonlighter - I would say that you could at least increase that amount by half again in relative terms for you idiots stuck in whatever shanty towns you're in trying to pay rent, mortgages, electricity bills or for other absurdly overpriced necessities.

I s'pose I do feel pretty lucky to be in this position - well it wasn't all luck; 15 years of professional and educational background did help with my being selected for the job - but even if it ended tomorrow and I was back at home on the tools again god forbid, I would take a perverse pride in saying that I had never worked for garbage, and that I hadn't been spending my declining years - because lets face it, the both of you have made it quite clear that opportunites aren't exactly waxing for you -I hadn't been wasting what precious time I have left to enjoy life in indulging my insecurities in a sad and bitter tirade against a world that really doesn't give a stuff about you and your $6.50 an hour "burger flipping" aspirations.

Oh, and another thing, I find it incredible that a continent that was able to produce a writer of the calibre of say Steinbeck in his later years, is now more or less chock full of semiliterates for whom the production of a grammatical sentence is an impossiblity, with even those who can produce language that approximates sense seemingly oblivious to the relationship that exists between sound grammar and unequivocal meaning...but then again if you really have nothing clear and worthwhile to say...

Look I enjoy the way you two express yourselves when you're having a good day, and I'm looking forward to the witty replies I hope you'll be able to compose in my honour(come on Arrogant WHOOP-DE-DO? seriously...), but it's no secret that the deficit in literacy in your fair continent is somewhat more severe than in that of other countries in the so-called English speaking world. I mean there's just no excuse for any of the incomprehesible nonsense that consistently comes out of the mouths of the current US political administration...maybe that's got something to do with the serious intellectual pressure that a nation would impose upon itself in trying to perpetuate the obvious fraud that a hack like Robert Frost was a great poet (but i digress)...

...anyway...love, peace, rainbows, and emerald-eyed golden-breasted birds warbling from verdant boughs to you both...

Oh!...and I nearly forgot to mention, if you call people "british" in some of the establishments where I'm from, there's a fair chance you'd be in for a well deserved kicking, so stick that up your @($es , oh sorry, donkeys, and flip those burgers comrades.

Wow, that was pretty good. Hey do you come with opposable thumbs?

If you do happen to wing a lobster shell his way, I sincerely hope the restaurant doesnt mind moonlighting pedantic waiters stealing the leftovers. Though your grammatical point was bang on, do realize (sorry I should use the British s not a z) that your syntax is quintessential British, as with your languishing analogies and metaphors.

Yes, looking down is something very British, but you still havent figured out that the Bloody Pound is a worthless photo album of a useless figure head. Simply, you need to get rid of that laughable British pride and accept the Euro. You look down on the French, Germans, etc. But, no worries, the Green Isle is so great that a mass exodus runs to southern Spain, and can be spotted easily blinding the locals with their broad white cellulose thighs in over-stuffed garish bathing suits.

Then theres your pride and joy, Manchester United fans. Off they go to Prague on one of those cheap 50 quid flights to drink until chunky fish-n-chips vomitus spews on the street. Alas, illusions are mans weakness. I think you had better look up before you look down: there might be a Manchester fan relieving his burden of the last meal and swill.

> DoS,

> I wrote the following 2 sentences:

> Then you wrote:

> In answer to you, yes my original two sentences are grammatically
> sound.
> They refer to hypothetical situations in the past (would have/ had
> been) and in the future (would/ were to be) respectively. I don't
> like yours though. I think you mean:

> (which is a conditional, rather than a hyptothetical)

> OR, as I already wrote:

> (which is a hypothetical, rather than a conditional).

> That's the way I do things anyway,

> Cheers.

=====================================================

Well, WHOOP-DEE-DO FOR YOU, Man! I admit I ain't got no grammar skills like YOU, but I teach good! Say do you give private lessons over the web?

Maybe some better English might get me a raise ... from nuttin' to
slightly above nuttin!

See yuh in duh breadline!

The Arrogant One

yes you are completely right the difference in culture, i think i have to change my attitude towards the natives and start thinking their way that is the best solution but the time is running and my students are still waiting - but anyway i will stay an optimist ans wait with them

> HELLO EVRYBODY

> I AM REALLY SICK OF SEARCHING NATIVE SPEAKERS. AND IF ONE HAPPEN TO
> FINALLY COME THEY TURN OUT TO BE TOTALLY UNRELIABLE. I KNOW THAT
> TEACHERS OFTEN COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW UNRELIABLE SCHOOLS ARE BUT IN THIS
> CASE I AM BOTH A TEACHER AND AN OWNER OF THE SCHOOL AND HAVING ANY
> CONTACT WITH NATIVE SPEAKES JUST DISCOURAGES ME FROM FURTHER
> SEARCHINGS. ONE OF THEM LEFT AFTER 4 DAYS (THE REASON - SO CALLED
> FATHER'S ILNESS), THE OTHER AFTER 4 MONTHS (NO IDEA ABOUT TEACHING
> ALTHOUGH HE HAD THE CERTIFICATE) AND FINALLY THE LAST ONE - EVEN
> BEFORE THE CONTACT WITH STUDENTS SAID THAT THERE ARE SOME THINGS
> WAITNIG FOR HIM THERE BACK HOME. DISASTER!!! BUT WHEN I LOOK AT THE
> FACES OF MY STUDENTS WHEN THEY FINALLY HAVE SOME CONTACT WITH NATIVES
> I AM EAGER TO TRY AGAIN......

> DISAPPOINTED TEACHER

Sorry to hear this, please also know that the exact same thing happens in reverse when teachers teach students privately. I have been doing so for 3 years now and you wouldnt believe what I have had to put up with...worse than you say here. There isnt any perfect solution I am afraid. This is the nature of the business. I have gotten much tougher with private students now, to the point I sack them if they dont play the game professionally, yes I SACK STUDENTS WHO DONT PLAY BALL NOW. Business is business, this approach is better in the long run. Surely you can put in place a penalty system of holding back on final pay (%) etc if teachers dont play ball. Sadly this has also lead to the big commercial schools being the way they are...no wonder! I personally work for more professional organisations - higher up the ladder, but then I have more skills and the professionalism. There are a lot of immature teachers with no life skills (life experience), sadly the 80 to 20 rule. I sympathize with your situation but also realise the same happens in reverse from students to teachers privately, but worse. You are not on your own...I am a teacher myself and have found that even when a teacher is professional and good at their job there are those employers who have NO IDEA how to look after them. So, you see there are opposite situations other than your own. It is a very tough business - it may be you need to learn to be a better judge of character, or take older people with more life experience!! is my suggestion. By the way, remember the old saying which I am afraid lots of schools tend to overlook - you get what you pay for!!!! Reality check! Pay peanuts and you get monkeys! I earn good dollars and am both a good and professional teacher. Why dont you approach it this way, I am sure you will have more satisfaction in the long run even though it may cost you more initially. You will have a much better quality and choice of teachers, but you need to suss them out properly first....Schools fail simply because they dont see the logic here. You have to be different and unique to survive this market and at the same time attract the best people, but you also have to pay better for it. The choice is yours, otherwise stay and put up with what you have and get. Remember like attracts like. This is simple logic..keep it simple and you see the answers more clearly. Remove all this emotion! Gambatte

NEW WARNING TO TEACHERS IN JAPAN: JAPAN PLACEMENTS - ALSO ACTING AGAIN UNDER a Malcolm Macdonald? - .....if you have more information or want more email me at dmpsensei at yahoo.com. I am passing this over to Japanese authorities for further investigation and action...but need more proof if possible please.

thank you all for advice, i am stubborn and i know that there are natives willing to teach in poland not necessarily warsaw or gadansk. and i believe that there are people who after teaching in big noisy cities will be willing to try sth new. and believe me i did inform about all the conditions, accommodation and so on but as i said i wasn't lucky enough. but i know that it is not a seperate example as i have many friends - teachers or school owners who also have plenty of bigger or smaller problems with natives speakers.

> No you wouldn't.

> You WOULD HAVE DONE the same HAD YOU BEEN in his shoes
> You WOULD DO the same WERE YOU TO BE in his shoes.

Is that right? It looks wrong to me. How about...

You would do the same WERE YOU in his shoes.

PolandI see. I hope you are not with ESCS, are you? I spent some time traveling in Poland and, yes, there is plenty of Polish hospitably to go around. However, it is not true that teachers just up and leave, are always irresponsible and have hidden agendas. Since Poland is a fine country, then the onus must be on you or your city.

Sorry, but just like in America, I found redneck cities in Polandsurprise..surprise. There are places in America, like Seattle, you couldnt pay me enough to live. Likewise, there are some really scary burned-out, blackened industrial places in Poland where no-neck men in black leather jackets look for a good brawl with an unsuspecting foreigner.

If this doesnt apply to your town/city, then, again, the problem MUST rest with your school. I suggest that if you really care about the quality of lessons and the high teacher turnover, you give your teachers a chance to write down any suggestions. You could even make a suggestion box so teachers can put in suggestions secretly and when an idea hits them. Or, you could just have a teachers meeting.

Hey, think of it as a free consulting service for your company. Your teachers will give you advice that will help you better serve your students and keep them happy too. You just cant convince me that all teachers are irresponsible and looking for a good time. As Ive stated on this board, I hate ESL but I also feel I have a job to do and ITS A JOB.

I work for a good English school in Japan. Yes folks, I never said my school was bad, just I wish I werent in this profession. Why is my school so good? Well, because the president always asks me for feedback on how to make things BETTER. Also, the teachers have a chance to teach with flexibility in the classroom. The money I make is average for Japan and the job is a typical ESL school. I consider myself fortunate in this regard because a BAD school will pay below market, micro-manage the teachers and take no suggestions.

Also, if teachers are just looking for a good time, why would they quit and move on? Usually, teachers stay with a school for their contract time even if they are just out to have fun. Why, because as I mentioned, the bread lines are getting bad in North America and even the young whipper-snappers out there know they need money for beer. So why would they leave your school if they want to have fun?

Learn from your teachers and they will learn from you.

Ah, you mean your business is failing? You mean that paying 500 USD a month and accepting a white face isnt getting you anywhere? You have high teacher turnover? Hiring 22 year olds fresh out of college that still have the binge drinking habit not considered in your business plan?

Well, guess what, you better learn about being a good businessman/woman before you open a school in a sea of a million other ESL enterprises just because you thought is was going to be easy money with little investment. Try running any business with the apparent business plans of many yahoos out there andguess whathigh teacher turnover and poorly satisfied students.

I will say this to you like I will say to the complaining teachers, its a business and the students are clients. On your end, you have to screen teachers better and look for better certification standards. For example, I would only recommend the Trinity College cert-TESOL or the CELTA. Why, because even though they are a month long, its backed by the British Council and audited by Trinity and Oxford, respectively, in the UK.

Lastly, when I taught in Europe, I had to give a demo lesson before I could even start. You would be surprised that many university graduates couldnt find a transitive verb with both hands and a neon sign pointing to it. So, Id recommend a grammar test, a sample lesson plan and watch them teach that lesson. Keep track of points like setting the scene, pair-work and lesson feedback. Also, watch the time and see if it conforms to the lesson plan. Thats how you weed the losers out.

But, as I suspect, like many Asian schools, you just want a white face, young, blond monkey to entertain the class. In fact, Ive seen many ads requiring previous music and acting experience for jobs in Japan, The Arrogant One may advise on this one.

Also, you get what you pay for. If youre cheap with teachers, why shouldnt they hit the exitstage left. Before you open a business, have a good business plan first!!!

> You are aware, I am sure, that writing in capital letters is the
> equivalent of yelling. Is it your normal modus operandi?

> Lower caps please

HE IS NOT YELLING, BUT EVEN IF HE IS WE CAN'T BLAME HIM. THE MAN IS UPSET. I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME IF I WERE TO BE IN HIS SHOES. lol

HELLO EVRYBODY

I AM REALLY SICK OF SEARCHING NATIVE SPEAKERS. AND IF ONE HAPPEN TO FINALLY COME THEY TURN OUT TO BE TOTALLY UNRELIABLE. I KNOW THAT TEACHERS OFTEN COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW UNRELIABLE SCHOOLS ARE BUT IN THIS CASE I AM BOTH A TEACHER AND AN OWNER OF THE SCHOOL AND HAVING ANY CONTACT WITH NATIVE SPEAKES JUST DISCOURAGES ME FROM FURTHER SEARCHINGS. ONE OF THEM LEFT AFTER 4 DAYS (THE REASON - SO CALLED FATHER'S ILNESS), THE OTHER AFTER 4 MONTHS (NO IDEA ABOUT TEACHING ALTHOUGH HE HAD THE CERTIFICATE) AND FINALLY THE LAST ONE - EVEN BEFORE THE CONTACT WITH STUDENTS SAID THAT THERE ARE SOME THINGS WAITNIG FOR HIM THERE BACK HOME. DISASTER!!! BUT WHEN I LOOK AT THE FACES OF MY STUDENTS WHEN THEY FINALLY HAVE SOME CONTACT WITH NATIVES I AM EAGER TO TRY AGAIN......

DISAPPOINTED TEACHER