The Arrogant One
- 2004-10-27
My dear OnceWritten,
Many thanks for your interesting response my post on the subject of age discrimination. Most of all, I truly appreciate your kind remarks concerning my powers of cognition and writing efforts. Yes, I do have a fairly happy brood to teach each day, albeit their satisfaction is basically derived from an ardent desire to learn, while I merely serve as their guide in the acquisition of such knowledge. I totally agree with your observation that an employer's age reservations regarding an instructor can eventually be eradicated via realization that the veteran's added years of experience in the field cannot possibly be matched by any younger entity, however handsome/cute, fresh off the graduation podium.
I am quite familiar with Japan's ageism, as I had occasion to experience same back in the late-'80s when I was still wandering the globe in an attempt to find myself. It's strange, but I was actually hired for the gig in question! The position was with a Tokyo-based ESL school. During my interview with the the school's owner (here in Los Angeles), it was put to me this way: Sir, I wouldn't normally think of hiring someone your age (52), but I need you for two special projects: First, to tutor some middle-age corporate students on-site; Second, to write a series of textbooks on Business English. Of course, at your age, I will be "forced" to pay you more than anyone else, so please don't ever tell how much that is. I guess that didn't get to me until much later, probably because I was so ecstatic over earning the extra geld. Incidentally, I remained in the employ of that school until it went bankrupt (...probably because they were paying me all that extra yen-age? 
)
OnceWritten, speaking of indisputable wisdom, I found your concluding paragraph to be monumental, to wit:
In some respects, it's up to us to create a demand for better qualified teachers by educating our students and being competent at our jobs, and whenever possible, exploding myths about older workers. Open minds are ageless.
Verily, as veteran instructors 'tis our solemn responsibility, first and foremost, to nurture the open-mindedness of our learners ... and, more importantly, to stimulate their desire to retain such qualities throughout their entire lives. Amen.
bientt!
Your friend,
The Arrogant One
OnceWritten
- 2004-10-25
"Arrogant" One (and Others of Seasoned Wit):
Being a bit across the bridge myself, and perhaps prejudiced in that direction, I happen to think that your experience in teaching and life must be of great benefit to your students. Judging by how well you express yourself, the depth of your thought and the excellence of your English, I can only think that employers not recognizing those qualities are perhaps running institutions not worthy of your talents anyway. I bet your students are happy, and that should be enough for the employers, one would think.
Ageism is for those who have not yet developed the wisdom to see past exteriors. One would hope that wouldn't include principals of schools.
In Japan, where ageism is rampant, but there's a downturn in the number of students and competetion for students and indeed for teaching jobs is getting greater, employers are gradually hiring teachers with better qualifications. These tend to be somewhat older teachers. There are still those who are insisting on the stereotypical good-looking young white American, but I think those people are quite old-fashioned in their thinking and hopefully will soon go the way of the dinosaurs.
In some respects it's up to us to create a demand for better qualified teachers by educating our students and being competent at our jobs, and whenever possible, exploding myths about older workers. Open minds are ageless.
Gambatte!
OnceWritten
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-10-22
Good points. Well, this is why I hate the free market corporate world we have today.
In the days of old, a blacksmith was working until his body got too old. Then, his sons took over. It seems to me now that the old system actually provided more security than this market driven one of today. Unlike 100 years ago, if you need clothes, food or shelter you just cant grow it or make it. Land is expensive and tools are expensive too. In other words, you have to work for someone to get these credits we call money. You cant be independent of the industrial complex.
As we get older, this is even harder because we are dependent on an industrial complex. I believe Carl Marx wrote well about this. Its just too damn bad that the Russians screwed it all up. Its not that communism is totalitarian, its just the Russians were. Unfortunately for us, that gave feed for fodder against any type of social protection. Now, even social security is a four-letter word. And hey, Bush just gave you an 11 dollar raise in SS payments. I guess you can quit teaching now!!! Got to love how society treats people.
The Arrogant One
- 2004-10-22
YES, ESL_IN_ASIA,
As usual, your facts are pretty accurate, but as for classifying the USA as being "age tolerant," I fear REALITY presents quite another story. Yet, in comparison to other lands -- especially throughout Asia -- I reckon you could say the USA is, quite paradoxically, an "Eden" in this respect. This business of corporations making use of the elderly and females had its grand debut during WWII, when all of the younger generation were getting their limbs blown to smithereens on the Pacific and Atlantic fronts. But when 1945 and victory came our way, those very same revered oldsters and females, having so greatly treasured their moment in the spotlight, were quickly hastened back to their rocking chairs and kitchens.
As you probably know by this time, I am 67 years of age, and I've been a busy boy throughout my careers in music, writing, and ESL instruction. Perhaps I had been too vain to know what I was recently forced to realize -- that I am considered by many as too old to compete in a young person's world, this being one of the reasons why I can no longer afford to be overly selective in my choice and location of employment ... or employer, for that matter. Alas, for those of us who are unfit for retirement, too damned poor to invest in our own enterprises, and customarily passed over for the DECENT gigs in the marketplace, one can only have pity on us for our unenviable plight. Of course, there are those who will argue that an instructor with 20 years of teaching experience behind him/her would be worth his/her weight in gold to ANY school. Perish the thought. The questions of applicable salary, health insurance, etc., etc. evidently matter greatly to the majority of institutions, both public and private. YES, there are laws here in the USA which supposedly protect the rights of those over 35. Unfortunately, employers are, by this time, expert in "The Art of Evasion," and have had their fair share of practice in the marketplace in making a rejection seem both unavoidable and acceptable to their victims. Christ! EVEN I was beginning to buy the circumstances meant to justify one of MY OWN rejections -- that is, until I suddenly awoke from the miasma so skillfully created by that pleading s.o.b.!
THE ANSWER to age discrimination? Search me. I have naught but to keep on a-truckin' and keep on a-hopin' during the remainder of my professional plight. In essence, the one thing I HAVE managed to learn is that, albeit there are far too many employers plagued by an ide fixe concerning the world's preference for youth, there are still those who both recognize and respect the value of age and experience. For those of us over 35, however, sending out our rsum is usually a crapshoot. Yet, pray we NEVER find the game tiring, for there's ALWAYS something out there to, at least temporarily, satisfy our needs. Amen.
The Arrogant One
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-10-22
You definitely have a good point. However, some societies make such acts of discrimination illegal. Whether one can prove to that effect is another matter. A company can always say, oh Im sorry but we found a more qualified person. Thats hard to debunk.
However, to put ads in the paper, as they do in Europe and Asia, stipulating you cant be over 30 for a job is REALLY blatant.
And the chap about Australia is correct too. For example, you CANT migrate to Australia if you are over 45period. Thats simply not true in the US or Canada. And thats an immigration law, so that's an example of ageism sanctioned by the Australian government.
In general, I find, North America is the most tolerant with age, sex, and nationalities. Other nations, and Ive lived in several, seem to lag behind about 100 years. Its just the way it is but its changing. Women in Japan, for example, are slowly moving into the work force, 50 years after American women, but its a change.
But all of this really has to do with a tight labour market, doesn't it. Obviously, if a company needs workers, then if someone can do the job regardless of age, nationality, or sex, then they would be considered anyway. Its just that big corporations have the upper hand and weve willingly given it to them.
Laowai
- 2004-10-21
> "So at least ageism isnt rampant in North America".
> I cant speak about north America, but agism is alive and well in
> Australia!
Can anyone tell me where in the world ageism is NOT rampant?
The Arrogant One
- 2004-10-18
My dear sir,
I very much appreciate the statement of how you feel as a part of the ESL shtick. Yes, things WERE better in Asia at one time, particularly in Japan during the last "bubble period," when I was TRULY happy to be a part of the scenario. And, when the "bubble" broke and I returned to the States (1992), I, too, found those doors WERE shut, and this was despite any advantageous experience I might have acquired by teaching Asian students on their home turf. Albeit it is now 12 years later, and the overall dismal state of the nation's economy -- not to mention the sad aftermath of 9/11 -- has reduced greatly the number of Asian students to U.S. ESL schools. Fortunately, I teach TOEFL, which is still regarded as a "specialty" hereabouts. Nonetheless you can well imagine how even I shake in my boots whenever there is an unexpected teacher's meeting called! It IS that bad hereabouts. One NEVER knows when a class will suddenly be cancelled. I might add that, thus far, several ESL schools have bit(ten) the dust in this fair city.
I happen to be a musician (percussionist), formerly an active pro in both the symphony and rock-n-roll circuits. When I hurt my shoulder several years ago and had to seek another means of livelihood, the B.A. in English (focusing on writing) I was wise enough to acquire before having embarked upon my international musical career was MOST useful in assisting me in the rsum-writing business I later conducted (for 9 years) right here in Los Angeles. When business started to take a dip nationwide, I, like so many others, panicked and I began to seriously consider trying to make it outside the country. I simply gravitated toward ESL. It seemed like the most logical thing to do, and I was VERY happy I had ... that is ... until I accepted a post in China. I'll not go into the gory details, except to say that I got good and screwed! That's history now, but I doubt that I would accept another such offer from that part of the world, even were I to be offered DOUBLE!
My point is, even though you've chosen to live outside of your native land, and many will frown at that choice, you have still made your own life's determination. As we both realize, there are, regrettably, those "certain areas" in contemporary Asia where such independence is verboten. Be that as it may, would you not consider it your duty, if not desire, to do your best to attempt to educate those
"ultra-brainwashed" types to at least accept the existence of opinions other than what they have been led to believe from the start? But, there I go again, on that damned hobbyhorse of mine, attempting to change the world. Please forgive me and, once again, thank you for such a frank post.
Love from,
The Arrogant One
Dos
- 2004-10-14
Well said EIA.
I have done many jobs in my long and varied career. From delivery boy to top level management. The thing is you can *always* learn *something* whatever you do, and at the end of the day to have work on your resume is better than having none.
"Always look on the bright side of life..." Some bloke on a cross (Life of Brian).
> You wrote a poignant and solid post. I really liked it. I admit, I
> was one of those arrogant.comers and guilty of helping develop
> software to throw a few out of work. Thats why Im now an unemployed
> software engineer.
> I got what I deserved, Ive learned my lesson, and Im willing to
> fight against the big greedy multinationals. Yes, the very ones that
> I helped shipped my job to Bangalore, India. Am I a loser? NO! You
> are right that things are beyond bad in the economy, thanks to
> rampant corruption from Enron to WorldCom to little ol Martha
> Stewart in the house for a few months.
> Yes, I didnt want to teach ESL but I had to. But, Im beginning to
> enjoy most of it, even though its not my talent. According to a
> survey by my school of my 120 weekly students, Im batting above 80%
> for being liked and delivering good lessons. For an ex-engineer and
> science grad, I guess thats not too shabby.
> Though, I dont plan to do this long, I hope, I have gained
> invaluable experience. In fact, I might want to teach science or
> mathematics in the future. Im not far from that career path. So, ESL
> teaching isnt ONLY English, its about knowing how to manage a
> classroom and organize the delivery of new knowledge. You know, to
> teach in a university, you only need a PhD or MS/MA. You dont need
> to know how to explain and deliver information. Thats why so many
> profs in university SUX. They have NO real teaching skills, only
> research skills. Ive learned more from this ESL stuff than many of
> my professors. Ill take this experience as a positive one and
> definitely NOT a negative one.
> So, it was the economy that drove me into this profession, but that
> was probably not so bad after all. Of course, I dont want to do this
> for more than a couple of years. For that, I hope the economy
> changes. If not, I see a revolution on the horizon because
> multinationals have gone too far too long. Anyway, yes I plan to
> change my career, yet again. I also Im going back to school, again.
> But thank goodness Im from a Western society that will allow me to
> enter back into the workforce at middle age. Asia would just send me
> to the streets!!! So at least ageism isnt rampant in North America.
> Anyway, good post.thanks
What's In A Name
- 2004-10-14
> ..................... 
.................. ............... !
> There are scammers all over the world I imagine, but usually there
> are laws and lawyers to protect the victims.
> It seems in a society where foreigners are outside of the societal
> structure and are considered non-persons, such as in Confucianism,
> this is where problems may lie in SOME situations.
> Madge has got a job at home, and is protected by REAL LAWS in a fair
> society.
> You might want to expand your set of work skills as music and art
> must be hard areas to get into. What sort of jobs are easy to get
> into where you live?
> Madge
those golden arches.
Madge
- 2004-10-14
> Cheer Up ESL'ers,
> things are not so bad as they seem teaching English over in Asia.
> I worked overseas for a couple of years and since have returned to
> the states to find the worst job market, double-standards, scammers
> and far too many closed doors!
> yes..."closed doors!"
> i always experienced far more my share of closed doors years ago,
> when things were a little better with even some so-called
> "booming" economy states, but things are far worse these
> days.
> now, even the arrogant.com highlifers are scratching for a living and
> facing those very closed doors that they once so proudly implemented.
> ...and of course the whole world has to digest
> "corruption", not only in asian societies but here and
> there as well.
> like the tune of ABC's school house rock animations..the song,
> "conjunction conjunction what's your function", maybe could
> be replaced here in the states with...
> "corruption corruption what's your function...?
> i'm and artist and musician by skill, but hardly by trade, and even
> the first world economies have made such meaningful talents, a bitter
> chore to make a living at.
> technology and automation has screwed up everything. these advances
> haven't
> improved much, but rather complicated the whole ball of wax even
> further.
> even with utilizing the tools of the trade, like making website,
> business cards, countless resumes, CV's, networking (ha ha) offering
> "free" labor and so much more...still nothing.
> i ask myself..."how much effort does one have to make, and still
> come up empty?"
> it feels like the world is falling into a black hole.
> so about teaching English overseas...it's not all that bad.
> so you have an occasional bad day in class, or your students drive
> you mad crazy, or the school doesn't keep some promises.
> still the doors are open for you all over there.
> working overseas can be tough, but things could be a lot worse.
> some of you might get fed up and decide to return to your country,
> but consider that the grass not being any greener back where you came
> from.
> don't imagine how things are back home, compared to where you are
> now.
> i've read so much on this forum, and many of you seem as though you
> hate, or want to compete with each other so much.
> who knows the situation with good or bad schools the most. who are
> the newbies. who are the REAL english teachers...?
> all of this...WHO CARES?
> if you find that you hate other foreign "teachers", well
> maybe it's because some of you are too afraid to admit to sharing
> some commonality with other foreigners not too much unlike
> yourselves.
> it's really o.k.
> to be honest, very few foreigners teaching overseas are losers.
> real "losers" (if any such person) wouldn't be able to even
> figure out how to get a job in another country.
> just because a person can't secure employment in his or her country
> doesn't make them a loser.
> it just makes them even more human, up against systems larger than
> any of us.
> look in the mirror, if you have one, smile, cheer up and congratulate
> yourselves on beating the odds.
> things will get better!
..................... .................. ............... !
There are scammers all over the world I imagine, but usually there are laws and lawyers to protect the victims.
It seems in a society where foreigners are outside of the societal structure and are considered non-persons, such as in Confucianism,
this is where problems may lie in SOME situations.
Madge has got a job at home, and is protected by REAL LAWS in a fair society.
You might want to expand your set of work skills as music and art must be hard areas to get into. What sort of jobs are easy to get into where you live?
Madge
What's In A Name
- 2004-10-14
Peace brother!
as i said, things have got to get better.
enjoy life. 
> You wrote a poignant and solid post. I really liked it. I admit, I
> was one of those arrogant.comers and guilty of helping develop
> software to throw a few out of work. Thats why Im now an unemployed
> software engineer.
> I got what I deserved, Ive learned my lesson, and Im willing to
> fight against the big greedy multinationals. Yes, the very ones that
> I helped shipped my job to Bangalore, India. Am I a loser? NO! You
> are right that things are beyond bad in the economy, thanks to
> rampant corruption from Enron to WorldCom to little ol Martha
> Stewart in the house for a few months.
> Yes, I didnt want to teach ESL but I had to. But, Im beginning to
> enjoy most of it, even though its not my talent. According to a
> survey by my school of my 120 weekly students, Im batting above 80%
> for being liked and delivering good lessons. For an ex-engineer and
> science grad, I guess thats not too shabby.
> Though, I dont plan to do this long, I hope, I have gained
> invaluable experience. In fact, I might want to teach science or
> mathematics in the future. Im not far from that career path. So, ESL
> teaching isnt ONLY English, its about knowing how to manage a
> classroom and organize the delivery of new knowledge. You know, to
> teach in a university, you only need a PhD or MS/MA. You dont need
> to know how to explain and deliver information. Thats why so many
> profs in university SUX. They have NO real teaching skills, only
> research skills. Ive learned more from this ESL stuff than many of
> my professors. Ill take this experience as a positive one and
> definitely NOT a negative one.
> So, it was the economy that drove me into this profession, but that
> was probably not so bad after all. Of course, I dont want to do this
> for more than a couple of years. For that, I hope the economy
> changes. If not, I see a revolution on the horizon because
> multinationals have gone too far too long. Anyway, yes I plan to
> change my career, yet again. I also Im going back to school, again.
> But thank goodness Im from a Western society that will allow me to
> enter back into the workforce at middle age. Asia would just send me
> to the streets!!! So at least ageism isnt rampant in North America.
> Anyway, good post.thanks
bulldog
- 2004-10-14
"So at least ageism isnt rampant in North America".
I cant speak about north America, but agism is alive and well in Australia!
ESL_IN_ASIA
- 2004-10-14
You wrote a poignant and solid post. I really liked it. I admit, I was one of those arrogant.comers and guilty of helping develop software to throw a few out of work. Thats why Im now an unemployed software engineer.
I got what I deserved, Ive learned my lesson, and Im willing to fight against the big greedy multinationals. Yes, the very ones that I helped shipped my job to Bangalore, India. Am I a loser? NO! You are right that things are beyond bad in the economy, thanks to rampant corruption from Enron to WorldCom to little ol Martha Stewart in the house for a few months.
Yes, I didnt want to teach ESL but I had to. But, Im beginning to enjoy most of it, even though its not my talent. According to a survey by my school of my 120 weekly students, Im batting above 80% for being liked and delivering good lessons. For an ex-engineer and science grad, I guess thats not too shabby.
Though, I dont plan to do this long, I hope, I have gained invaluable experience. In fact, I might want to teach science or mathematics in the future. Im not far from that career path. So, ESL teaching isnt ONLY English, its about knowing how to manage a classroom and organize the delivery of new knowledge. You know, to teach in a university, you only need a PhD or MS/MA. You dont need to know how to explain and deliver information. Thats why so many profs in university SUX. They have NO real teaching skills, only research skills. Ive learned more from this ESL stuff than many of my professors. Ill take this experience as a positive one and definitely NOT a negative one.
So, it was the economy that drove me into this profession, but that was probably not so bad after all. Of course, I dont want to do this for more than a couple of years. For that, I hope the economy changes. If not, I see a revolution on the horizon because multinationals have gone too far too long. Anyway, yes I plan to change my career, yet again. I also Im going back to school, again. But thank goodness Im from a Western society that will allow me to enter back into the workforce at middle age. Asia would just send me to the streets!!! So at least ageism isnt rampant in North America.
Anyway, good post.thanks
Cheer Up ESL'ers,
things are not so bad as they seem teaching English over in Asia.
I worked overseas for a couple of years and since have returned to the states to find the worst job market, double-standards, scammers and far too many closed doors!
yes..."closed doors!"
i always experienced far more my share of closed doors years ago, when things were a little better with even some so-called "booming" economy states, but things are far worse these days.
now, even the arrogant.com highlifers are scratching for a living and facing those very closed doors that they once so proudly implemented.
...and of course the whole world has to digest "corruption", not only in asian societies but here and there as well.
like the tune of ABC's school house rock animations..the song,
"conjunction conjunction what's your function", maybe could be replaced here in the states with...
"corruption corruption what's your function...?
i'm and artist and musician by skill, but hardly by trade, and even the first world economies have made such meaningful talents, a bitter chore to make a living at.
technology and automation has screwed up everything. these advances haven't
improved much, but rather complicated the whole ball of wax even further.
even with utilizing the tools of the trade, like making website, business cards, countless resumes, CV's, networking (ha ha) offering "free" labor and so much more...still nothing.
i ask myself..."how much effort does one have to make, and still come up empty?"
it feels like the world is falling into a black hole.
so about teaching English overseas...it's not all that bad.
so you have an occasional bad day in class, or your students drive you mad crazy, or the school doesn't keep some promises.
still the doors are open for you all over there.
working overseas can be tough, but things could be a lot worse.
some of you might get fed up and decide to return to your country, but consider that the grass not being any greener back where you came from.
don't imagine how things are back home, compared to where you are now.
i've read so much on this forum, and many of you seem as though you hate, or want to compete with each other so much.
who knows the situation with good or bad schools the most. who are the newbies. who are the REAL english teachers...?
all of this...WHO CARES?
if you find that you hate other foreign "teachers", well maybe it's because some of you are too afraid to admit to sharing some commonality with other foreigners not too much unlike yourselves.
it's really o.k.
to be honest, very few foreigners teaching overseas are losers.
real "losers" (if any such person) wouldn't be able to even figure out how to get a job in another country.
just because a person can't secure employment in his or her country doesn't make them a loser.
it just makes them even more human, up against systems larger than any of us.
look in the mirror, if you have one, smile, cheer up and congratulate yourselves on beating the odds.
things will get better!