Corbin, as we all hopefully leave this "conversation," please keep in mind that those of us (the ones you mention favorably and unfavorably) have tried (some of us for years now) to warn others about the various pitfalls of teaching in China (and now for me, Korea). We take the time to post warnings, but we are ALWAYS met with bullying by defensive posters who obviously have some sort of financial stake in the ESL insanity of China, etc. Why else would they chronically post such hostile messages against those of us who are trying to get the truth out about China? We are a threat to their livelihood, and they will stop at nothing to discredit what we say.

Yes, remove yourself from this thread, but I urge you to read postings in this forum -- as well as ESL Discussion -- from posters you have not read before, and I think you will see a clear pattern that A LOT of people who come to China (or Korea) meet with a host of problems, crises, and employment "crimes." As this thread has been wearisome at times for you, remember that each and every time some of us take the time to post warnings, we get pummelled as well from the bullies. Why should we bother to continue? I'm honestly trying to help people make an informed decision, and not face the multitude of difficulties and injustices I faced, but I'm also sick of being pounced upon, ridiculed, and insulted.

I have never, at any point, said I did not like teaching in China. I stayed for a number of years because I genuinely liked and cared for my students. What never improved (no matter which type of school I worked for) was greedy, corrupt and deceitful employers (and of course, recruiters) who didn't give a damn about students, instructors, or staff; rampant apathy, and almost complete lack of educational integrity and support.

ALL public schools (colleges and universities) I taught in had horrible and discrimatory work conditions. Many posters will tell you that employers often threaten them. Luckily, that happened to me only once when an employer threatened to "hunt me down like a dog." After years of such outrageous and dispectful treatment, I finally said "enough!" and got the hell out of China.

I miss the many, many wonderful people I met there, and I remain in communication with them. They understand exactly why I left China, and many of them urged me to so long before I actually did. China has a bounty of wonderful things to offer. Unfortunately, ESL employment is not one of them.

The same goes for Korea. In some ways, things are better here, but other aspects are worse. In short, I DO NOT recommend Korea for ESL work either.

Good luck to you -- whatever you decide to do -- but as I said previously, I've no doubt you will thank us far more than those who have pianted a very false picture of China for you.