Corbin, as we all hopefully leave this "conversation," please keep in mind that those of us (the ones you mention favorably and unfavorably) have tried (some of us for years now) to warn others about the various pitfalls of teaching in China (and now for me, Korea). We take the time to post warnings, but we are ALWAYS met with bullying by defensive posters who obviously have some sort of financial stake in the ESL insanity of China, etc. Why else would they chronically post such hostile messages against those of us who are trying to get the truth out about China? We are a threat to their livelihood, and they will stop at nothing to discredit what we say.

Yes, remove yourself from this thread, but I urge you to read postings in this forum -- as well as ESL Discussion -- from posters you have not read before, and I think you will see a clear pattern that A LOT of people who come to China (or Korea) meet with a host of problems, crises, and employment "crimes." As this thread has been wearisome at times for you, remember that each and every time some of us take the time to post warnings, we get pummelled as well from the bullies. Why should we bother to continue? I'm honestly trying to help people make an informed decision, and not face the multitude of difficulties and injustices I faced, but I'm also sick of being pounced upon, ridiculed, and insulted.

I have never, at any point, said I did not like teaching in China. I stayed for a number of years because I genuinely liked and cared for my students. What never improved (no matter which type of school I worked for) was greedy, corrupt and deceitful employers (and of course, recruiters) who didn't give a damn about students, instructors, or staff; rampant apathy, and almost complete lack of educational integrity and support.

ALL public schools (colleges and universities) I taught in had horrible and discrimatory work conditions. Many posters will tell you that employers often threaten them. Luckily, that happened to me only once when an employer threatened to "hunt me down like a dog." After years of such outrageous and dispectful treatment, I finally said "enough!" and got the hell out of China.

I miss the many, many wonderful people I met there, and I remain in communication with them. They understand exactly why I left China, and many of them urged me to so long before I actually did. China has a bounty of wonderful things to offer. Unfortunately, ESL employment is not one of them.

The same goes for Korea. In some ways, things are better here, but other aspects are worse. In short, I DO NOT recommend Korea for ESL work either.

Good luck to you -- whatever you decide to do -- but as I said previously, I've no doubt you will thank us far more than those who have pianted a very false picture of China for you.

Wow, Turnoi, your powers of observation are astounding! Even after I clearly listed my other nom de plumes, you still observe that I and "the casual something" are "most likely one and the same person."

I will agree with you, though, that I am an "ignorant fool;" otherwise, what would possess me that I should think that you and your ilk are capable of communicating intelligently?

I'll give you one more chance though: Prove to me that I have responded to any of my own posts. If you can prove it, I'm not above admitting it. Of course, I will not expect a reply because you have proven time and time again that you are incapable of responding to questions or comments - additional proof that you, like your cohorts, can't focus for very long on one topic without resorting to name calling while avoiding the essence of the post to which you respond. Actually, it reminds me of barroom banter because in such an environment any attempts at real communication are lost to the need of the participants in the conversation to always be the one talking. Thus, the original point of the conversation is rarely revisited and no one really gives a damn as long as they can keep sloshin' 'em down. It's also a very common aspect of forum communication, so in that regard I would not single you guys out as particularly unique. The anonymity afforded by forums allows for a kind of communication that somehow reduces what would otherwise be the responsibility of the communicators to at least try to stay on topic. Moreover, it is that allowance that seems to attract you, Turnoi; you seem to gravitate toward its lure as you shun the responsibility that should rightfully come with true and honest communication. Think of it as a black hole, if you will, that has sucked you, Choatle and the toddler in and from which there is no hope of escape. Well, maybe, but only in the same way that a cat would regurgitate a fur ball.

I once had a professor in a class called Advanced Interpersonal Speech Communication. Although he was quite a patient man, he felt it his responsibility to remind us when our communication or reasoning, whether it was in a group or one on one, became too circular. He had a booming voice, and I will never forget how he used to walk the aisles in the classroom while stating succinctly, "No work being done!" Those words resonate clearly now when I think of the garbage you and your buddies cough up in this forum. It's no wonder that so many keenly intelligent posters come and go so quickly here - they simply want to disassociate themselves from such inanity. Those of us who do choose to spar with you, do so knowing quite well that to expect an intelligent response is folly. Speaking for myself only, though, I also take delight in seeing just how far off course you, Choatle and the toddler can stray on your inevitable destination of that aforementioned black hole. However, at the same time I do get an immeasurable amount of enjoyment from the very realistic and meaningful posts of USMC, manchu, and a few others. The fact that you spar with them also is not surprising to me due to the fact that you are way outclassed by them. Oh, and I might add that I often read your posts to see how you're doin' with your feeble attempts at using English correctly. Of course, you and Choatle are of an age where you'd better hurry up and buckle down if you're going to make any progress in that direction, but there's still hope for the toddler if he'd stop burning out those synapses in the bars he loves so much.

Essentially, though, ......................no work being done! However, don't concern yourself too much - I'll not be around that much longer and that's why I chose to reveal all the user names I've used lately. Albeit, I've got better fish to fry elsewhere. (Oops, there's that word [fish] that gives you heart palpitations - sorry.) Oh, and please do disregard me - nothing would give me more pleasure than for you to prove to me that can't relate to me on any level.

Finally, though you're a Yank hater, it may be wise for you to heed the following words of a great American:
You can't depend on your judgment when your imagination is out of focus.
Mark Twain