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#1 Parent Turino - 2009-04-09
Re: Big Lion - Zhengzhou

Dave,I really don't want to have the last word in this thread.
I asked 'doesitmatter' which province is out to punish FT's working on the side.No reply till now.So I presume my educated guess of Yunnan is probably right.If you're a teacharian after two or more teaching jobs,avoid teaching in Yunnan.That's my advice in the absence of further enlightenment.Thanks anyway for your post,'doesitmatter'.
Perhaps Dave or 'doesitmatter' or an other wishes to reply to my post.I'd be very happy if either or both of you would do so,and I PROMISE in that event not to have the last word this time!

#2 Parent Turino - 2009-04-06
Re: Big Lion - Zhengzhou

According to what you've heard,please specify the province or provinces intent on clamping down on FT's caught working on the side.Said information might well be of use to certain FT's,but not in fact to me.
I'd reckon it's only one,that one being Yunnan.Am I right?

#3 Parent Turino - 2009-04-06
Re: Big Lion - Zhengzhou

OK,Dave.Let the other readers take all this in,and do as they will.I've posted my responses:
1) An employment contract sets out the nature of the duties required and the amount of pay and benefits etc. This part of the contract is usually set out quite clearly and precisely. Once those duties have been performed, the employee's free time is his own and the exclusivity clause would not apply. The employer has no rights to control his employee's free time nor to dictate what he shall/shall not do in his free time as long as the employee does not break the law of the land. Agreed!But if you take this matter up with him to eliminate such illegal clauses before signing the contract,which would be the honest thing to do,my guess is that the job offer will be withdrawn!
2) If an employer fires an employee for working for someone else after the employee has fulfilled his contractual working duties, the employer may be liable for legal action for breach of contract himself, as he can prove no loss, expense, or other detriment due to the exclusivity clause being 'breached' The purpose of that clause is to reasonably protect the employer against loss and expense that might be caused if an employee performs work for someone else at times when he should be physically working for his employer. Thus when he has fulfilled his employer's duties there is no likelihood of this happening.But it could be argued that an employee can take on a second job to the detriment of his first job,in the sense that he is overworked doing the two jobs,and is therefore underperforming in his 'main' job!So he could be rightly(or wrongly) fired for that reason!

3) There is no question of 'cheating' as the purpose of the contract is not to restrict the employee's rights but to form the basis of an agreement as to what each party shall do for the other. I repeat - Once the employee has fulfilled his working duties his free time is his to do with as he pleases.But it's dishonest to sign a contract including a clause(or clauses) you'll subsequently disobey on purpose!
4) Thousands of foreign teachers in China perform teaching jobs for other schools 'on the side' without depriving their employer of anything at all. Thus the employer cannot claim he is being cheated simply because his employee uses his own spare time to earn extra cash. What is the employer losing by this? What cost is he being put to by this? All his costs (salary, accommodation, fares, utilities etc) are costed into the pay and benefits package offered to the employee and after he has performed his duties he has fulfilled his contract. So what exactly is the employer being cheated of? Answer - nothing! He is being cheated by those foreign teachers who are working on the side,possibly for second employers who have no right to hire foreign teachers in the first place,such teachers using the accommodation provided free by the initial employer and their Z visas arranged by said employer to benefit other Chinese employers who have paid and done nothing to hire them in the first place.And you have failed to mention that those teachers working on the side are taking away employment opportunities that would perhaps otherwise be offered to would-be foreign teachers who can't get jobs!

5) How many foreign teachers do you hear of being caught by the PSB? How many do you hear of being fired for working elsewhere? In all my years in China I can count such examples on the fingers of just one hand. Working elsewhere is not policed nor enforced to any significant degree, for it is something of a grey area.But if you're working anywhere in China without a Z visa,you're breaking the law,be it for one or more employers!(I haven't heard of FT's being caught teaching on the side because I choose to teach in backwaters,where there are few job opportunities anyway!)
6) You say (quite rightly) that my honesty or lack thereof is none of your business - but does the same comment apply to the honesty or lack thereof of all other foreign teachers - if so, why are you writing all your verbage at all? For if what I do is none of your business, neither is what they do and thus you shoot yourself in the foot for jumping in where you readily admit you have no business to be.Of course,the same comment applies!I was only stating that I regard it as dishonest,and likely your initial employer will regard it as so too,if he becomes aware of it.And don't forget that in China,employers sometimes look for other ways to fire employees whom they know have disobeyed the clauses of their contracts re working on the side.

Finally,what do you do if you're caught teaching on the side by your initial employer two months before the end of your contract and he withholds air fare reimbursement and other benefits?Take him to court and win your case before your residence permit has expired?On foreign soil,be prepared for anything,even the worst outcome!

#4 Parent doesitmatter - 2009-04-06
Re: Big Lion - Zhengzhou

"5) How many foreign teachers do you hear of being caught by the PSB? How many do you hear of being fired for working elsewhere? In all my years in China I can count such examples on the fingers of just one hand. Working elsewhere is not policed nor enforced to any significant degree, for it is something of a grey area."

You're right dave it is definitely a grey area and an interesting one at that. A few months ago the local PSB sent the IED at this university an attachment that was sent to the applicable colleges on campus. It was clearly stated therein that the foreign teachers here are not to accept outside employment lest they face punishment that could be as severe as deportation. I find it an interesting aspect of Chinese laws and/or regulations that they can be viewed one way in one province and an entirely other way elsewhere. The leader of the PSB here plays it close to the cuff, though, and apparently doesn't want to deviate from the letter of the law. I can respect him for that At least there's a clear distinction between right and wrong in his mind that makes it easy to figure how he'll deal with certain situations, such as visas for example.

Too bad the police chief doesn't take the same approach to solve the insane traffic problem here. That being the case I could just enjoy the ride instead of trying to deal with the semi - choreographed chaos every time I ride my bike to town.

#5 Parent Dave - 2009-04-06
Re: Big Lion - Zhengzhou

One final response, Mr Turino.

1) An employment contract sets out the nature of the duties required and the amount of pay and benefits etc. This part of the contract is usually set out quite clearly and precisely. Once those duties have been performed, the employee's free time is his own and the exclusivity clause would not apply. The employer has no rights to control his employee's free time nor to dictate what he shall/shall not do in his free time as long as the employee does not break the law of the land.

2) If an employer fires an employee for working for someone else after the employee has fulfilled his contractual working duties, the employer may be liable for legal action for breach of contract himself, as he can prove no loss, expense, or other detriment due to the exclusivity clause being 'breached' The purpose of that clause is to reasonably protect the employer against loss and expense that might be caused if an employee performs work for someone else at times when he should be physically working for his employer. Thus when he has fulfilled his employer's duties there is no likelihood of this happening.

3) There is no question of 'cheating' as the purpose of the contract is not to restrict the employee's rights but to form the basis of an agreement as to what each party shall do for the other. I repeat - Once the employee has fulfilled his working duties his free time is his to do with as he pleases.

4) Thousands of foreign teachers in China perform teaching jobs for other schools 'on the side' without depriving their employer of anything at all. Thus the employer cannot claim he is being cheated simply because his employee uses his own spare time to earn extra cash. What is the employer losing by this? What cost is he being put to by this? All his costs (salary, accommodation, fares, utilities etc) are costed into the pay and benefits package offered to the employee and after he has performed his duties he has fulfilled his contract. So what exactly is the employer being cheated of? Answer - nothing!

5) How many foreign teachers do you hear of being caught by the PSB? How many do you hear of being fired for working elsewhere? In all my years in China I can count such examples on the fingers of just one hand. Working elsewhere is not policed nor enforced to any significant degree, for it is something of a grey area.

6) You say (quite rightly) that my honesty or lack thereof is none of your business - but does the same comment apply to the honesty or lack thereof of all other foreign teachers - if so, why are you writing all your verbage at all? For if what I do is none of your business, neither is what they do and thus you shoot yourself in the foot for jumping in where you readily admit you have no business to be.

That is my last word on this issue - of course, you will doubtless insist on having THE final word and if that is your choice, then please enjoy.

Dave

#6 Parent Turino - 2009-03-26
Re: Big Lion - Zhengzhou

There's no point in us arguing about minor differences between what you've said and what I've said in this thread.Let me re-state my main points:
1)if you're already teaching illegally in China,that is,without a Z visa and a residence permit,you'll still be illegal when you take on a 2nd job.And don't think that there aren't illegals working in China right now,not only just for one employer,but also for 2 or more!So,necessarily,the FAO(Foreign Affairs Office) will be out to give you grief.
2)if you're already working legally,but you knowingly break the contract that you've signed re clauses pertaining to not seeking additional work and/or not asking permission to seek extra work first,then you're DISHONEST.If you choose to go down that route on the basis that you think it was unfair of that clause to have been inserted in the 1st place,you're STILL DISHONEST!That's because you didn't get said clause eradicated from the contract before you signed it!But if you'd had tried to force the issue,probably you wouldn't have been offered a contract to sign thereafter.
3)Your honesty or otherwise is your business,according to your morality or lack of it.Do as you like.You have to live with that,not me!
4)Mr Big Lion is av very foolish Chinese businessman.At his rates of payment,he won't get foreign teachers in Zhejiang,or indeed in a poor Chinese mountain village for that matter!He'll end up as the boss of a disfunctional Chinese outfit.Bankruptcy will be his deserved fate!At least 70 an hour plus reimbursement of taxi fares should be what's on the table!
I welcome your response - I hope you're satisfied now!

#7 Parent Dave - 2009-03-25
Re: Big Lion - Zhengzhou

Correct, you did not use the word illegal and being equally as picky as you are, neither did I suggest that you had used the word. If you read my posting again, you will see that much of it deals with the subject of cheating and breach of contract. You have not answered that in any detail because what I have said about it is right. Providing you fulfill your employer's scheduled requirements he cannot claim that he has been cheated because you perform similar duties for someone else. The rest of your time is your own and you are able to work for others on a part-time basis. Personally, I don't, but that is because I value my spare time more than the money I might earn working part time elsewhere.

An employer will have difficulty winning a claim for breach of an exclusivity clause unless he can prove that he has suffered some demonstrable loss as a direct result of you working for someone else. I accept that there may be occasional cases where, for example, an employee may fulfill his employer's work schedule properly and satisfactorily but may then work part-time for a direct competitor of his own employer. Under such circumstances his employer may have a justifiable claim but even then he has to prove his loss.

Furthermore, very few employers "bring" their employees to China. An employee who accepts a job offer whilst still in his home country usually receive an Invitation Letter from the employer and then have to pay their own costs for a Z-Visa at their nearest Chinese Embassy, plus a medical certificate at a place approved by that Embassy. Rarely, if ever, are any of the latter costs refunded by the employer and the employee's air fare to China is not usually refunded until at least half way through his 12 month contract and in many cases not until the end of it. In virtually all cases where an employee is hired in his own country, the employer's costs are limited only to that of obtaining an Invitation Letter and the courier costs of sending it to the employee. Yet the way you describe it suggests a major expense and logistical exercise on the part of the employer.

But what about 10 month contracts? These employers will usually renew the employee's visa and let him live in their accommodation providing he has renewed the contract for a further 10 months, but will not pay him a single penny of salary for the two months between working periods. These contracts also have exclusivity clauses and on the basis of your argument, the employee has to sit doing nothing and being paid nothing for two months? How does he eat?

There are also thousands of cases where the employee changes his job whilst already working in China. Then the new employer doesn't "bring" the employee anywhere except maybe will pay his train fare. He doesn't even need to bother with a Letter of Invitation.

Chinese employers do not "own" their employee's free time. The purpose of the exclusivity clause is not to stop the employee working for others - but to stop him working for others in any way that prejudices the employer's right to his performance of the duties detailed in the contract. That purpose is fair and reasonable.

But I ask you again - what about the Big Lion job offer? Is that fair and reasonable? Let's see you make some response in direct connection with their offer instead of playing 'Devil's Advocate'.

Dave

#8 Parent Turino - 2009-03-24
Re: Big Lion - Zhengzhou

I never said it's against the law to work for two employers in China.All I said was that it's DISHONEST to sign a contract with the employer who brought you here in the first place if you break a clause in the contract that stipulates:
a)you request permission to take a second job.
or
b)you cannot take one.

I'd reckon that a) would result in a refusal more often than not.

Another poster brought the PSB into the argument,not me.I'd reckon they wouldn't care about that.That other poster's university was just trying to put 'the frighteners' on the FT's to stop them seeking additional work,so I reckon.

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