BB
- 2010-08-27
But here's a simple example of my theory in which we can all relate. Go to a grocery store and ask a random clerk for something. Many times, instead of telling you they don't know or taking the time to help you look for it or even find someone else to help you, many times they will say "Mei You" (don't have) and then one minute later you find it in an aisle over.
Good point, I believe this is one the factors that hold China back and create so many problems across the board for this country. Another example of the "loosing face" issue is when there is an accident, or when two cars meet travelling different directions. no one will back down, no one will give way and no one will admit they are at fault.
They will happily sit there for the duration of the day beeping their horns at each other or in the case of a crash arguing in the street. It usually takes the intervention of the police to sort the matter out and force loss of face on one party.
Tom
- 2010-08-26
Yes, I'm English.
There is a lot in what you say. The main thing is that we concur, Yuming leaves a lot to be desired and has to be one of the worst teaching outlets in China.
I think it's the sound of "Mai You" to the western ear that's particularly grating. "kong pa Mai you" (I'm afraid we have none) in the context of the retail outlet enquiry, sounds nicer on the ears. I've had a lot of dismissive retorts in USA and UK though, and gone on to find the desired item in the aisle.
I've spent ten years travelling around China and found the ordinary folk really nice and accommodating[Yuming-type business people are not ordinary folk, rather, rich replacements for the aristocracy] ; however, the teaching venues now seem to be getting worse for the Western teachers-I suppose we're becoming ten a penny-one used to be treated like a film star, even if you looked like a Cyclops.
Migrant Worker
- 2010-08-26
Well, it is hard for someone from a western culture (assume you are) to think like someone from the Chinese culture. I believe it does have to do with "face" or fear of losing it and admitting one's mistakes and correcting it.
Sure there are bad people everywhere, but why would you choose to operate with such continued problems? Because there is no problem to Helen, because to admit fault is to lose face. She can't admit she is a bad manager. Denial is a power thing, right? I am sure she treats Chinese staff like crap too, perhaps she dislikes people in general because they question her management (and rightly so).
For example: Chairman Mao allowed up to 60 million of his own people (numbers could be off but a lot) to starve. He feared losing face to the outside world and instead of keeping the rice for his own people, he exported it. One could argue it wasn't his fault that his subordinates provided him with false information. Well, is it possible they did so because they feared losing face and being punished? In the end, he made the decision to export the rice while his people starved. Why?
You will find the root of many stupid acts in China to deal with their fear of losing face. I am not saying it's the only factor... we could equate stupidity (lack of education to be politically correct), laziness all attributed to overpopulation.
But here's a simple example of my theory in which we can all relate. Go to a grocery store and ask a random clerk for something. Many times, instead of telling you they don't know or taking the time to help you look for it or even find someone else to help you, many times they will say "Mei You" (don't have) and then one minute later you find it in an aisle over.
I believe this is because in their minds to claim or lie that they don't have something compared to "I don't know" doesn't threaten their face. I would prefer to call it pride. Have you ever noticed that even when a Chinese person is caught in a lie, they will act like they didn't do anything wrong or make up a horribly lame excuse that makes them look even worse than before? It is pure desperation to protect the ego. I am not going to say it is for ALL Chinese but unfortunately, it does make up the majority.
Although, I do see changes in their youth.
Tom
- 2010-08-25
I don't believe that the 'Chinese losing face thing' comes into the equation at all. It's clear that Yuming knows full-well that each year they will have trouble with many of their foreign teachers and that most of them will leave under a cloud- it's all grist for the mill for them, and whereas that little Chinese personess in charge may well get niggled with the antics of surly and ungrateful FT's, she certainly won't lose any sleep over it- she might try and mess things up for you visa-wise etc., but that's just entertainment and light-relief for her, and you shouldn't take it personally. You mean sod-all to her, she doesn't give a tinker's curse what you think- she's met hundreds of your type before and knows she'll meet many more. You will easily be replaced-many of those replacements will cause little personess trouble and they'll be replaced in their turn. I don't think she is likely to dislike foreigners in particular- those and the Chinese staff are all considered rubbish-an unfortunate business expense, putting it euphemistically.
Is Yuming at risk of collapsing? Not a bit of it, even if criticisms expand ten-fold on the internet.
In the distant future when many more Chinese schools want foreigners for the good of their students, things might change; sadly, most of us are employed for promotional purposes, which is the main reason why you can't discipline the kids at any of Yumings schools-you are not there for your teaching skills.
Migrant Worker
- 2010-08-25
I can assure you it is entirely in vain. Here's pretty much why:
"Face" is the most important thing in China. If she admits her faults, in her warped mind she is losing face. Therefore, she is entirely perfect as she is because she can never admit fault or mistakes for fear of losing this face. She has convinced herself that she has no fault and is a perfect "human being" and needs absolutely no advice from a bunch of dumb lao wai that are just trying to "ruin her face and business" when in fact it is her unwillingness to co-operate with her most valuable resource (foreign teachers) that will ultimately cause the destruction of her business and reputation.
Afterward, she will tell everyone she knows how evil foreigners are for screwing up her business.
And that's why the whole face thing is utter crap and why she will most likely never take our advice.
I got a better chance of having a meaningful conversation with a brick wall.