Dragonized
- 2011-02-10
I have been on the road for the last couple of days so I havent been able to post,. I will finally respond to you.
For the last time Im not that old. I might even be your peer or (GASP) younger than you. What benefit do you gain from repeating the mantra of calling me and others dinosaurs and old?? Do you expect that by saying this OVER AND OVER AGAIN that people reading the posts will think the bad things which happen in chinese esl industry are distant things of the past?? I think this makes you look like you have something to hide. On the other hand you might now call me nave and inexperienced.
From what you have been writing for the last couple of days, its obvious you have no clue as to how things work at training schools. You ability to think outside the box is non-existent. The idea of the sociopathic DOS being replaced by a supposedly good DOS which will SEEMINGLY RESOLVE ALL PROBLEMS AT THE SCHOOL IS LAUGHABLE. The BOSS/OWNER controls everything. Should students not be entertained and stop paying the school even if the teacher is trying to teach instead of entertain and if you were the DOS and you liked the teacher you would still have to talk to them about changing their teaching methods. YOU HAVE WHINED and complained that we dont understand you, that in fact training schools can provide an effective method of teaching which public schools cannot offer. Yet you have NOT SAID ONE THING which demonstrates you know how to balance entertainment and education. You have not provided EVEN ONE RESOLUTION on HOW you will go about making your education to people beneficial and contribute to actual progress with Chinese education.
You basically have been making one point and one point only, that no matter what happens in the esl world you believe that you can make a difference by providing real education through the private training sector. Well you should know you have your work cut out for you. Now if you really HAD SO MUCH CONFIDENCE in changing the private education scene in china why would you be so worried about what me, Turnoi, and others have to say??? After all were just old geezers (supposedly) who have nothing better to do than to act bitter and spew hot air (to borrow one of your phrases). The fact that you spend so much time and effort trying to shut us up shows us apparently YOUR RESOLUTION TO END ALL ESL PROBLEMS IS TO MAKE PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZE THIS BUSINESS SILENT. Yeah talk about a resolution, eh?
I should apologize to Turnoi when I told him in an earlier post that you have no relations with Yuming. Well I now think maybe you do have relations with Yuming and/or other crappy private education branches in China. You claim to do research on bad educational sectors, private or public yet you willingly jump out to the aid of a place which has gotten so many complaints from the past. What are you so afraid of? Maybe YOUR SCHOOL HAS DONE SIMILAR THINGS TO OTHER TEACHERS IN THE PAST. You are afraid of these kinds of problems being laid out to public because teachers which have been shafted by the very school you work at YORK would be able to relate and establish a network with each other and warn other new teachers to stay the hell away. You seem very eager to cover our arguments with your posts of how supposedly things are getting better and there will be roses tomorrow and yada yada yada. Well I have very bad news for you, those very teachers who used to work AT YORK most definitely know how to contact people who have worked at Yuming and other hellish places. The internet is very handy, and you cannot cover the WHOLE INTERNET.
Your methods of covering up your own schools deceit and possible criminal activities have only served to expose you for who you are. I can say with utmost confidence and assurance that:
WARNING TO ALL FOREIGN TEACHERS: Do NOT work for Kevin and his boss at York School in Fuzhou!!! These are people with an obvious agenda to hide and STOP AT NOTHING TO FOOL PEOPLE. They know how hard it is to get people to work there, and it's even harder now that they've shot themselves in the foot.
Kevin
- 2011-02-10
You all keep saying you do not care what I think or that you will not waste your time yet that is all you seem to be doing. What does that say to people when you claim this is a waste of time but keep jumping on this thread with your nonsense. It is very clear you do not even agree with what you are saying so why should any of us?
If you can give me one simple concrete example of why York is a crappy school, that is specific to that school I will not continue to post. No generalizations but something you know for a fact makes it a crappy school I will bow out. Until you do though I will continue to argue that the reality is you know nothing about this school and should not have said anything about it in the first place.
It is that simple yet I doubt any of you will be able to truly rise to the challenge.
Whistleblower
- 2011-02-10
No, I am not gong to be quiet, and you are definitely none of those "rational" people.
Yes, my argument is clear and concise while yours is not at all.
And you must be one of the paid lackeys posting in favour of that crap York pretend "school"?
No reason to waste any time on your "arguments" in detail; to say that garbage York pretend "school" is one of the thousands of crappy training centres in China is just enough. Nothing else needs to be addred.
Crappy training centres in China have no credibility at all, they are language mills that are not to be taken seriously for the lack of quality education they provide.
you should stay quiet and let the rational people speak
Tom
- 2011-02-10
"Nothing that you detractors of the training schools has come even close to suggesting you are my betters or even my equals. Bitter old men trolling the Internet deserve no respect at all."
What are " detractors of the training schools" when they is at home, Kevin? I sent a copy of this post of yours to my local pub near London-it was reported back to me that all the local building workers were in stitches as a result and falling off their bar stools. You do use some curious English and i suggest you not only take a leaf out my book and let sleepers sleep but you drug the whole class before lesson commences.
Are you taking cash from York school, Kevin? Your heart is obviously not into battling above your station, so you must be.
Listen mate, there's nowt wrong with being a virgin-also nowt wrong with angry young FT leaving his keyboard for five minutes to peck girls on cheeks-and it will allow men with a mission to save FT's from going to rubbishy outfits like York Foreign Languages (not only English) School.
Kevin
- 2011-02-09
Oh Whistle blower your argument is so clear and concise. Come on now, if you are not going to say anything of worth and just continue spewing out the same old hyperbole maybe you should stay quiet and let the rational people speak.
Have you even been to Fuzhou or York? I seriously doubt it and makes me wonder why you think you can contribute to this thread at all.
TC Hater
- 2011-02-09
This is coming from someone who encourages his students to sleep in class.
Students should be encourages to sleep in class in case of teachers who prove themselves to be unable to write and speak proper English!
This helps them avoid the mistakes that their teachers make!
Yadda yadda diddo diddo....!
Whistleblower
- 2011-02-09
York may not be the best school in China but am 100 % sure it is not even close to being one of the worst.
York is one of the worst places in Fuzhou, and FTs are well advised to stay away from York anf goons like you!!!
Kevin
- 2011-02-09
@tom
This is coming from someone who encourages his students to sleep in class. Come one now you have by your admission proven you have no respect for yourself, your students or the material you are teaching.The fact that you choose to take the easier softer approach to handling a large group of students shows you inability to make a change. Someone like you wold never last in a training school like York, you would be fired before finishing your probationary period. Of that i have no doubt.
calling me impudent callous for not showing respect on this site is laughable. To say that the elders on site are my betters is a grievous error on your part. Nothing that you detractors of the training schools has come even close to suggesting you are my betters or even my equals. Bitter old men trolling the Internet deserve no respect at all. If any of you gave valid reasons to stay away from your aside from shouting all training schools are crap i would be more inclined to listen to you. Sadly none of you have done that, you have generalized York and its teachers into a group you have deemed worthless. The fact you are suggesting I am a virgin and should be out chasing young women shows what it is that you really consider important. My having sex or not is not the issue on this site yet you feel you must go into your bag of tricks and belittle me any way you can. This deserves my respect? That is a sad statement of your desires if you are suggesting I hunt down girls instead of trying to make the world of ESL better.
I have met many an old man here in china trying to score with the young ladies knowing full well they would not accomplish that goal in their home country. My guess is that you are one of those old men and since you are you deserve nothing less than my scorn. if not for types like you many of us FTs would not have to battle the idea that all foreigners are merely here for a good time and that ultimately we are worthless.
Kevin
- 2011-02-08
I would say it is more a statement of sad it is for you that you hit a few brick walls and gave up. if everyone that ever encountered a few brick walls gave up the world would be a pretty miserable place to live in. i am sure Rosa Parks sitting at the front of the bus hit more than a few brick walls but her force of conviction brought about a small change that led to even larger changes. I wonder what would have happened if she gave up and retired herself to the fact that she could never change anything.
If I was to ever leave this country and go back to Canada i am sure i would go back to my previous job of working in child protection services. Talk to me about hitting brick walls after you have seen a childs corpse after they have been neglected by their parents or even worse after they have been actively abused by their parents.
Teaching in a training school might not have been the best experience for you but again that is not every persons experience. Before dismissing the whole industry try your best to understand that ther are places that really do make an effort to help their students as well as the teachers.
York may not be the best school in China but am 100 % sure it is not even close to being one of the worst.
Tom
- 2011-02-08
"I seriously doubt you would be able to be the manger of Human resources with your negative attitude and your lack of understanding of how things change. Dinosaurs like you that see the world as it was ten years ago are obsolete and useless.
Leave the game to younger men that are actually willing to do things. I understand that you are powerless to affect any change and that you coming on here is a feeble attempt to give your life meaning."
Yes, you have learned something in China, you have become an ageist who believes anyone reaching 49 should buy himself a kite and make his way to the park. How on earth can you say younger men are willing and able to do things when all you want to do as a rosy-cheeked representative of this galvanising youth movement is to keep the Status Quo.
Most owners of private "sellers of the English language" in China can't and do not even want to speak the language, they are mostly Chinese middle aged men (should be in the park) who have come into money by fair means or fowl and flogging English has become a very nice investment. One of the largest English Centres in Tianjin is owned by an ex-chicken farmer who came into money as a result of a government compulsory purchase order of his land. The chicken-farmer way of private schools being established is repeated to cover most of them. Most private schools in China have the sole purpose of making money and have no interest outside of the money factor. York school is fair game.
You are an impudent young man the way you callously insult your elders and betters. What do you get out of haunting this site? God, when I was your age, i was either busy learning languages or out chasing young ladies. I should spend more time asking yourself what wrong in my life? Unless of course York is giving you a wedge for all your many efforts---at least that's a reason I can understand. Are you a virgin?
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Dragonized
- 2011-02-08
At this point, I am wondering if I should feel sorry for you. I don't want to make it seem as if your whole school is in danger, after all what would you do if you didn't have this job of yours? It does seem like you are dead set on seeing things in a certain way and making your ultimate goal of changing whatever and bringing whoever to reality.
I can only say to you, good luck. You can believe whatever you want to believe. It's just a bit sad to see people still buying into the whole ESL crap. If you can change things, more power to you. However if you do run into some brick walls and experience some things personally which have already come to light to so many of us, just remember who brought you there and who made the choice, yourself.
Kevin
- 2011-02-08
So now that you know what it is like to be called names and attacked for your ideas maybe you will be less likely to do it so quickly here on this site. That is my main goal to stop you [edited] from jumping on every single bandwagon and dismissing other people without any consideration of their personal experience.
I understand your point that we will never be able to influence change here in China however I disagree. Possibly if you stayed here long enough and were open minded you would see that there are subtle changes rippling through China primarily caused by western influence. By not accepting intolerable situations, speaking your mind, eloquently and consistently defending your position you might have caused a greater deal of change. Apparently though that is too much effort for the likes of you. Instead you will yell from the sidelines how bad things are and how they will never change. Extremely helpful LOL
I use my past experience as well as others I have met living here to formulate my opinions. I have never claimed all training schools in china are good to work at. What I have said is that there are schools here in this country that deserve your unfounded criticism and that there are teachers who every in their own special way improve the working conditions of these schools. If a school truly does abuse its staff, cheat their students and parents than I not endorse that place at all.
From the conversations that I have had with people at York and the feedback from parents and students this is not the case.
Not all training schools are crap. Do not believe the miserable trolls who live on this site.
Bullring
- 2011-02-08
Dragonized, when responding to those who defend these kindergarten training centres so vigorously may I recommend you have your cleaning lady take care of the GW's:
Dragonized
- 2011-02-08
I'm actually not that old, I haven't even hit forty yet although it sometimes feels as if I have 
Your talent with judging people is obvious as you just take your excuses for why schools are bad and defend them by using your own past reasons as logic.
YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT, YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE PEOPLE. YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE THE CULTURE. People make the choices to change themselves. I was able to guide students myself when I worked in China, which wasn't too long ago at all. But being so young and very impressionable the students will always fall back to the habits of the main environment, not a sub-environment like a school. Like you said in a previous post you obviously disagree with me on the situation and what to do about it. So we will just have to leave it at that.
Also you accuse us of calling you this and that, then you turn around and throw fancy words like dinosaur around. You don't exactly promote confidence in anyone with your own childish diatribes.
Kevin
- 2011-02-08
How specifically have I shown everyone why private ESL schools should not be trusted?
When you come onto to this site and arbitrarily attack any training school with no intimate knowledge of it how can you be trusted.
As I said before read posts from people who actually work at York and you will see how their situation is improving. stop assuming i work at York because I do not work there.
I am the worst of the worst? Finally someone stands up to you and your cronies and that is what I am? I do not allow you to defame a place or the people you do not know and I am a bad guy? Before you sling your muck maybe you should actually know what you are talking about.
Stop telling teachers you know anything because it is obvious you are still living in the past and using your crap experiences to color your comments. You are not helping anyone with your diatribes so stop patting yourself on the back and please stop fooling yourself. It really is embarrassing to see you behave this way.
Maybe you should act your age and stop calling people names.
YOUR "SCHOOL" OF YORK LANGUAGES OF FUZHOU IS AMONG
THE WORST SCHOOLS THAT ANY TEACHER CAN COME ACROSS
Just admit that you really know nothing about this school and stop pretending like your opinion matters.
For any teacher interested in York or any other training school your best bet is to talk to the people there. Listening to this fool will prevent you from actually having a positive experience.
Kevin
- 2011-02-08
Take for example the thousands of expat teachers who never got their
full salary, or were asked to do overtime without pay involuntarily, or never given
their holiday pay or their end of contract bonus. Think about the excuses that so many
school made up to exploit them
I would never say anything negative about those people , they got the shitty end of the stick and had a bad experience here. I would say to them that if they are going to continue working in China to not let those things happen. If anyone is going to come here they should have an exit strategy in place so that if they have problems they can sort themselves out without relying on the school. The first time there was any problem with the salary LEAVE, very simple. Asked to do unpaid overtime say NO, again very simple. No holiday pay or end of contract bonus, come on this site with specifics about what happened and warn others not to go there, again simple. It does suck to have it happen, I have firsthand experience of a university trying to do that to me but I refused to be a victim and left. I did not run away from the country and bitterly cast dispersion on all universities and training schools though.
Now your example of the sociopath DOS raises an interesting point.
So if the DOS is gone and is replaced by someone who makes every effort to improve the lives of the teachers and students we should still focus on the fact that the previous DOS was horrible? There is absolutely nothing the new DOS can do because his predecessor was so bad? The teachers that had such a negative experience with that past DOS should carry that over to the new DOS? No wonder you do not believe in change if that is your general opinion. Thankfully there are those that do not think or behave like you for if there were we would still be in the dark ages. What if one of those said teachers with the negative experience steps up into the role of DOS and does everything opposite of what the bad DOS did? Would that not be a positive change?
I would love to listen to logic on this post, unfortunately you and your ilk have said nothing logical to listen to. Talk about ego, come on now you are hoping people will listen to someone like you who does not even live in the country, has done nothing to change the situation and says nothing of substance. It must fill your heart with joy thinking you are actually contributing when really you are just blowing hot air.
I seriously doubt you would be able to be the manger of Human resources with your negative attitude and your lack of understanding of how things change. Dinosaurs like you that see the world as it was ten years ago are obsolete and useless.
Leave the game to younger men that are actually willing to do things. I understand that you are powerless to affect any change and that you coming on here is a feeble attempt to give your life meaning.
Kevin
- 2011-02-08
I live and work in China, my experience right now is in China. Any foreigner that wants to come to china would be better off listening to me because I am in China. Again you with your ridiculous assumptions show you have no idea what is really going on. Maybe senility is setting in.
in a previous post you claimed you do not care what I think and yet here you are going on and on defending you ridiculous opinion to me. I think it is obvious that you do care, you know you are wrong and yet cannot bring yourself to admit it. That is why you are still responding to someone like me who is so unappealing.
As for people contacting you for information, what a great disservice you are doing. You do not live here, work here or experience what is happening in China.Yet you feel qualified from your experience years ago to talk about what is happening presently. That is really logical. i would suggest you tell these people to contact those that are actually doing something instead of shouting from the sidelines like a bitter soccer mom.
Calling people groveling weasels, goons and whatever other clever names you have come up with is mature?Give your head a shake. For many long years you and your ilk have been posting on this site with very little consequence and now someone is refusing to put up your crap. Someone who knows the players involved, someone that is not afraid to reveal your truly ridiculous statements. I would not have hurt feelings if a dog or a child disobeyed me so why would anything you say be any different?
Dragonized
- 2011-02-08
Once again, you have oh so gracefully shown everyone why private esl "schools" shouldn't be trusted. INSTEAD OF PROVIDING EVIDENCE AS TO HOW YOU ARE IMPROVING THE SITUATION, YOU ATTACK ME AGAIN AND AGAIN IN SUPPOSED RETALIATION OF HOW UNCIVILIZED I BEHAVE TOWARDS YOU, supposedly.
Answer my questions of HOW you are supposed to improve the situation. In other words try and argue the point, but alas you once again overanalyze what I SAY and try to undress me as a person (figuratively, not literally).
YOU ARE THE WORST OF THE WORST. YOUR "SCHOOL" OF YORK LANGUAGES OF FUZHOU IS AMONG THE WORST SCHOOLS THAT ANY TEACHER CAN COME ACROSS. To all teachers out there please do yourselves all a favor and avoid this crappy place. I need not speak any more with this person as we can all see the sick world he helps create.
Kevin
- 2011-02-08
In fact, York has had complaints by people who have worked there.
Complaints would suggest more than one, yet i only see one from Claudius mcduff. His complaints about the school were specific to the management at the time and may or may not be true. Brad and the others that work there however posted after wards defending the school. I myself have no problem with that. I do have a problem with your type with no factual knowledge coming on this post and crying crappity crap crap. Your ignorance is what offends me not what real people with real issues have to say. If calling someone a fool for doing something ridiculous is propaganda then yes I am using it.
I DO NOT WORK AT THAT SCHOOL. I agree that the worst offenders should be exposed and shut down. York is not one of them. If you were here instead of sitting on your rocking chair comfortably back home you would know this. Foolishly you lump all training schools into one big group and refuse to listen to people when they tell you that they are trying to fix the problem.
Ensuring the teachers are paid on time, have above adequate living arrangements and generally making sure the new teachers life is comfortable while in china is the responsibility of the Dos and others that have been at the school. These are things you are incapable of doing in your present situation yet you belittle those people that are doing it.
It is really easy for you to sit there and be the armchair quarterback when you are not even in the country but again I say why not move on to something you can actually contribute to without sounding like a pompous fool.
Here's an idea for you. IF YOUR "SCHOOL" REALLY HAS NOTHING TO HIDE WHY ARE YOU
STILL POSTING??
I really do not see what your idea is. Are you suggesting that since I am responding to your bile I have something to hide? I will clear up any confusion you have, I am responding to you and your friends because YOU ARE WRONG. It is very simple YOU ARE WRONG and I feel beholden to clarify that for anyone that is coming on this post. If I see an injustice being perpetrated by the likes of you I have to stand up and say "hold on now you sir are mistaken." you and your ilk are the ones who have made it personal with your name calling and useless rubbish talk.
I know this might be difficult for you, the internet must still seem fascinating but what I would suggest to you is scroll down and reread the posts and you will see I and other people have clearly shown you why York is not a bad place to work.
Dude you should go write script for comedy shows, better yet you can audition for these said
shows as the jaded guy who never gets it.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-07
Like I said, I told everyone DO NOT WORK IN CHINA at these crappy training centers, including the one you're at. If the best effort that you can put is accusing me of NOT MAKING AN EFFORT then I must burst your bubble and tell you that if YOUR best effort is supporting people who just want to make money you're only emboldening others with the same narrow minded psyche to do the exact same thing. This only makes the situation worse. If you can't live with this reality then you obviously have something you don't want to face up to personally.
Kevin
- 2011-02-07
WOW look at you go with your scathing rebuttal, it is full of insight and wisdom i have yet to accomplish myself.
Let me try to understand this saying York is crappity crap crap is a sincere form of trying to share an experience? Or calling those that posted on this board groveling weasels, goons,fast food workers and other sundry titles is really a way to help those with a desire to learn about the school? I guess my ability to discern sincerity has left left me since moving to China.
Is this what you tell yourself to feel good after attacking complete strangers whom you have no intimate knowledge about?
Where is the honesty when all you do is complain and attack those that disagree with you? Reread this thread and you will see that if you and ilk did not arbitrarily start talking smack about this school I would have said nothing. You brought this upon yourself with your immaturity and juvenile name calling. Thinking no one would respond as people have not in the past is probably what makes you feel that you can say what you want with no challenge. I challenge you and others and that makes me a troll? it is obvious that you not only care what I think but also I have struck at the heart of this matter.
Your assumptions are ridiculous and should be contained in your mind, where i believe you think that what you do is truly noble. I know enough about china to live here, work here, help others and be a productive member of this global society. While you on the other hand cast dispersion on a group of people you have never met and you have the audacity to call me a troll. I do not use Chinese people to measure my superiority but instead use fools like you to, as it obvious you have brought a knife to this gunfight.
As for me not caring you are again mistaken. i have done nothing but defend a school and its people against unprovoked insults strewn about by you and your ilk. If anything sir you are revealing to the world how bitter old men who failed here in China think. I would agree that it is not a good idea to come work here if you are going to have a horrible attitude against its people. Thats probably best you left because posting your particular form of nonsense on the internet damages those of us less than if you were to remain here.
Your present world has no moral boundaries
Where do you come up with that? I disagree with you and point out your obvious shortcomings and you conclude that I am without moral boundaries? Anyone reading these posts can see you are losing your grip in this discussion and have resorted to calling me names and insulting my character as an attempt to rectify your failure. Come now surely your mother told you a long long time ago that if you have nothing nice to say do not say anything. Long ago are the days of playground tactics that you are so obviously trying to employ by calling me names.
I see no where on this thread or on any of them that you care about helping people. What I do see is a bunch of pompous old men,bitter with their experience here in china patting themselves on the back for posting such scathing reviews as
rubbish, rubbish, garbage, garbage!
extremely eloquent and oh so helpful to any new people here.
What is truly funny is how you are unable to see how much of a joke you are actually being and how this does help crappy training schools. If the noble defenders of the ESL world are this incompetent at explaining themselves why would any rational human being listen to what you have to say?
Again is is obvious that they do not because as in one of your previous posts you claimed to remain in contact with people working at training schools now. If even these people would not listen to your unfocused and incoherent ramblings what makes you think random strangers will pay any attention to the likes of you.
Get off your soapbox, investigate and talk to the people at a school before you jump in with your diatribe. Then you would actually be helping those in the ESL industry.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-07
why would anyone with any modicum of intelligence listen to someone who has admitted they are not even in the country
?
Great, if we followed your logic why would ANY FOREIGNER want to listen to YOU since you're obviously in a foreign country yourself and you're also working in an embedded environment. Who's REALLY not having it out with having a rational areguement?
Since I do not agree with your assessment of the state of affairs in regards to training schools my guess is your only recourse is to call me names. That obviously proves you are right and I am wrong. Kudos to you sir for revealing your lack of intelligence or ability to formulate a thought on this post.
The more you talk, the less appealing your personal, well, appeals are to us.
If you really wanted to help the ESL industry and prevent new teachers from making the mistakes you made , might I suggest you stop writing about the past or at least come back here and do more research which will leave you better informed than you actually are.
As for the glowing posts about universities i am sure you will find many teachers that have had horrible experiences. The universities operate similar to the training schools wanting to make money. a major difference though is that at a training school such as York the class size has 60 plus students.
I never said all universities were great, that is an assumption YOU have made. I know teachers who have had horrible experiences at public universities, maybe I'm one of them? I'm just saying that if you really WERE TO COME to China to work as a teacher, the university scene is a place WHICH TREATS ITS FOREIGN TEACHERS much better by comparison. I also never said working at universities meant having the best jobs in China now did I??? Your reading comprehension needs work.
I am suggesting you and your ilk are worthless and outdated, the type of people that complain and whine while not even in the loop. Your claim that you talk to people still working at training centres serves to validate your argument yet I have to wonder if all training are crap why would they still be here. Your message that training centres are crap has been on this site for years. I guess those people you talk to feel your opinion is worthless and outdated as well.
I still get emails from time to time(and I'm sure others who post on this site do as well) from teachers asking me for advice. I try my best to help them and give as much information as possible, but I cannot say I always give a complete picture. However the fact that strangers contact me for information shows that these ideas are not outdated. Your idea of complaining about the same old adage being repeated needs to be re-examined. EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN MONTH there are a whole NEW BATCH of crappy places and complaints popping up. I hate beating a dead horse but THIS IS AN ONGOING PROBLEM. Private educational quality in China cannot be turned around from the inside of the business.
Calling me "ilk" and saying everything I say as being "outdated", "old", yada yada yada is pretty childish. It sounds like you're talking for the sake of soothing your own hurt feelings from other people disagreeing with you.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-07
Dramatizing your cause by playing victim and telling us we beating you down is what exactly con men and crooks want to hear. Talk about a good example of the devil rebuking sin!
Let me ask you this. Take for example the thousands of expat teachers who never got their full salary, or were asked to do overtime without pay involuntarily, or never given their holiday pay or their end of contract bonus. Think about the excuses that so many school made up to exploit them. Then defame said teachers when they try to warn others.
Are YOU GOING TO PAY BACK THEIR SALARIES?? ARE YOU GOING TO STICK UP FOR THE GOOD PEOPLE WHO WERE VICTIMS OF THE CRAPPY WORLD OF ESL??? No you're just going to sit back and denounce anything negative which seems unfit in your oh so sophisticated mind. Why don't you go back and read your own responses? Look at how shallow they really are. Anyone with experience knows you haven't been through much. Just knowing isn't enough. Your ability to analyze a problem and the types of "solutions" you come up with don't do anything.
Now take another example of a franchised "school" such as EF or Aston, say they used to have a sociopathic DOS or manager who made life hell for everyone. Then one day the "school" finally decides to get rid of him/her and put someone more competent. Does that mean this "school" is trying to make strides, yes. Does this mean that the upper management actually put the complaints to heart and finally ended the reign of awfulness? NO they did it because they were going to lose too much money from the bad reputation and press they were getting. DOES THAT TAKE AWAY ALL OF THE NEGATIVE EXPERIENCES THAT ALL OF THE PAST TEACHERS HAVE HAD??? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Those teachers have already experienced it, and that experience stays with the teachers. Change doesn't mean you just brush the past aside.
If I was working at a human resource department for a company I would NEVER FOR THE LIFE OF ME promote someone like you to manager. You would most definitely repeat past mistakes which have already been told and you will only listen to ego rather than logic when the time to make the most crucial decision is at hand.
Seriously just your attitude with things such as "past" and "outdated" shows what a wreck of a person you really are. You have NO IDEA what justice really means.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-07
In fact, York has had complaints by people who have worked there. The complaints have been met with accusations of said accuser as being "bitter". This is typical propaganda and bs.
Here's an idea for you. IF YOUR "SCHOOL" REALLY HAS NOTHING TO HIDE WHY ARE YOU STILL POSTING?? Since we're just crazy old hooligans who have missed out on one vacations too many in Thailand you shouldn't have ANYTHING TO WORRY ABOUT with us having influence on intelligent people such as you, right? 
If I were you and I really wanted to change the crappy ESL scene I would conjure up methods of actually bringing about a change to people's lives by changing the way they think and getting students to think in class, but since you're so smart I'm sure you already know how to do this even as you're typing up another response.
Change only comes along when people are HONEST ABOUT DOING IT. If you do really know about the horror stories and the bad experiences you should know that IT DOESN'T TAKE TOO MUCH OF AN EFFORT TO BRING UP THE QUALITY OF A TRAINING CENTER. If that were the case your school (and some other schools which have been promoted on this site) should already be one of the biggest brands in all of China. If there really was a reliable, decent, effectively run world class business system implemented into these "schools" we should have heard of how successful they are by now. But which private "schools" still have the biggest (i don't mean best) businesses in China?
THAT'S RIGHT, THE WORST ONES SUCH AS EF, WEB, ASTON, NEW ORIENTAL, GLOBAL IELTS, WALL STREET ENGLISH, AND NDI!! I have yet to hear how much these places have changed a student's life. I mean after all English is a language, and language as promoted by Chinese teachers and bosses/lackeys at these places as a tool you should use, how the students use it is totally up to them. Considering the guidance I don't exactly believe that when a student looks back on their childhoods they will actually think that "Hey going to English school was the KEY to turning my life around."
Influential people from the past, present, and people who will become influential in the future will write and publish about their experiences and what changed them as an individual. I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE PROSE, ONE STORY, ONE ESSAY in any well known chinese books published by an independent publishing company WITHOUT ANY VESTED INTERESTS in private education that actually tells a personal, heartfelt story of how their lives were suppsedly changed by these places such as the one you work at. It's your JOB TO BE A GOOD TEACHER. If most of your colleagues are doing a bad job you have NO CONTROL OVER THEM. You also would be speaking falsely if you just said you were in a good business.
Dude you should go write script for comedy shows, better yet you can audition for these said shows as the jaded guy who never gets it.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-07
Thank you for all of your posts about me and Turnoi. It goes to show everyone who reads the boards the difference between people who care and people who don't. You are obviously the worst troll I have seen on these boards for a while.
We honestly come on here to share our experience. You see us for trying to do something honest and attack us without hesitation and pretend you know everything about China and that you know it better than any of us do.
You know nothing about China. You are here to pretend you know something and you feel good about yourself when you're just doing another job. You pretence to feigning a meaningful existence really is pathetic. You are truly a great example of what a pretend "sinophile" is. You see chinese people as a means of measuring your own superiority!
You don't care about anything or anyone but yourself and how right you are. Your responses go a long way with showing everyone in the crappy ESL World of China how rotten people with the most egotistical attitudes get to be put in a position of pretend self importance. We don't care about your imaginary world of righteousness and good as defined by you!
Your present world has no moral boundaries. You just want to tell us how wrong we are, that tells us a lot more about you than about anyone.
Kevin
- 2011-02-07
I have met plenty of teachers that have had a positive experience as well, most of them would not post on this site for fear of being called a goon or a GW or whatever other clever name you use to beat people down with.
I am suggesting you and your ilk are worthless and outdated, the type of people that complain and whine while not even in the loop. Your claim that you talk to people still working at training centres serves to validate your argument yet I have to wonder if all training are crap why would they still be here. Your message that training centres are crap has been on this site for years. I guess those people you talk to feel your opinion is worthless and outdated as well.
You obviously have not kept in touch with the situation or maybe just kept in touch with the people who really do not like living and working here. If you were aware of the situation maybe you would be less vehement about not coming to China to work.
I am not saying foreigners do not get the shaft here but what I am saying is that it is happening with less frequency. As for foreigners getting the shaft I believe that would be a worldwide happening. Unless of course I misheard about the Chinese experience in Australia.
Keep telling yourself you are aware of the situation here if that makes you feel better, far be it from me to teach an old dog new tricks.
As for being selfish, stuckup, brainwashed and a stooge I really have not said anything that would give a rational human being that impression. Since I do not agree with your assessment of the state of affairs in regards to training schools my guess is your only recourse is to call me names. That obviously proves you are right and I am wrong. Kudos to you sir for revealing your lack of intelligence or ability to formulate a thought on this post.
Again if you want clear examples of why schools such as York are good places to work you merely need to read what their teachers have written. I have no need to repeat what they have said to someone like you who obviously has their old man blinders on.
If you really wanted to help the ESL industry and prevent new teachers from making the mistakes you made , might I suggest you stop writing about the past or at least come back here and do more research which will leave you better informed than you actually are.
As for the glowing posts about universities i am sure you will find many teachers that have had horrible experiences. The universities operate similar to the training schools wanting to make money. a major difference though is that at a training school such as York the class size has 60 plus students. York I believe has a maximum of 15. Aside from giving lectures at university where many of them do not have a curriculum and leave it up to the teacher there is not a whole lot of teaching going on. If anything the universities, high schools and elementary schools want a foreign monkey to entertain the students and have such stimulating discussions like "movies which one do you like" or "how to order food". If you were here you might be familiar with the thousands of university students who have passed their English exams yet cannot put a coherent thought together to save their lives. I have personally met 6 year old who are better at speaking English than most university students, and those children learned it at a training school. Look at the playway to English program as just an example of what these children are learning.
I believe what I say because I know it to be true, I live here, work here and experience it daily. The same can not be said about you. why would anyone with any modicum of intelligence listen to someone who has admitted they are not even in the country?
Kevin
- 2011-02-07
Also I am not telling everyone their ideas are worthless and outdated. I am telling YOU that your ideas are useless and outdated.
If your best contribution to the ESL world is DO NOT WORK IN CHINA then obviously you have nothing of importance to say. Very much like your friends who say York is crappity crap crap and give no evidence whatsoever as to why it is crap.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-07
If it worked for you, you can only speak for yourself. For you to tell others that their ideas are worthless and outdated just because YOU HAD a good experience shows us who you really are: Just another egotistical person who only thinks of himself.
You tell us to not judge you, yet you give us some of the lamest examples of why we should believe you. You claim there are many many training schools that are trying to change for the better, but again and again you fail to provide ANY EVIDENCE. You just believe what you say and use that as evidence to tell us we are wrong.
I have kept in touch with the situation in China all the way up to the present. I have known sources who have worked at and are still working at training centers in China. The things you have told us about "many" places trying to change for the better are in fact NOT TRUE. I have yet to see a large group of teachers come onto the discussion boards and claim how wonderful training centers can be. The positive reviews of China have as far as I have seen come from public universities only.
Teachers are still getting shafted EVERY DAY. This crap is STILL HAPPENING IN CHINA. To discredit us without providing evidence as well as not arguing the point and merely telling us we're not up to date on present issues shows you're nothing but another selfish, stuckup, brainwashed stooge in the Disgusting ESL world of China!
Kevin
- 2011-02-07
Rest assured though I could not care less about what you think of me.
You seem to be spending an awful lot of time on someone you do not care about.
You have also stated about places to work at which are raved and seen as very great
Give me just one example of a place I have raved about. i am on this thread in defense of the unfair treatment of York and its teachers. Grant, Brad, Tom, James and beef noodle have given reasons why York is a good place to work at. I do not work there so there is nothing I can add about York that those other fellows have not already done.
You are asking me for the exact same information I am asking for. When Turnoi or other fools shout crappity crap crap I ask for exact details as to why York is such a bad place. I am never given any though which is why I say that just dismissing all training schools as crap is wrong. If you want accurate reasons why York is not so bad go to the start of this thread and read. The answers you seek are there and they were written by people who live here and have intimate knowledge of the school.
I have given no rhetoric, crappy or otherwise that would suggest I am a corporate goon, I am merely stating facts about a world you obviously know nothing about any more. I am sure there are plenty of horrible places that are in China but i would also suspect you know less about them than I do seeing as how you do not live or work here anymore. The past is the past but do not try to use your past to color our present.
Kevin
- 2011-02-07
In a previous post you told me I assumed too much, is that not exactly what you are doing?
You have no idea about my past experiences so please do not try to guess because you will fail. As you have done here in these posts.
I have had many horrible experiences while working here in China but I did not let them affect my decision to remain and teach. What they did was make me more informed as a teacher and as a professional. I took those negative experiences and used them them as a basis for improvment. I did not want to see it happen to other teachers and created an environment where it does not happen. I struggled against my Chinese bosses and showed them I was willing to fight for what I believed to be right. you will most likely disregard that as it does not fit into your old ideas about China and how things work here but ultimately I have no reason to mislead you.
You obviously have no idea of what is happening in many of the training schools at present. Making money is a priority but I believe that many FTs have been able to show their bosses that by having motivated and capable students will bring in more money than just having bodies fill the seats. You show your ignorance towards the parents asi say again many of them are becoming better educated consumers and are unwilling to pay for shoddy education at the training schools. Many of these parents are in turn educating their friends who in turn tell others and so on.
Not only do i do the right thing but I also get a salary. I am not afraid of losing my job because i refuse to do something I believe to be wrong. There are plenty of jobs available which means I have lots of choices. I remain where I am because I believe that i am doing good work as I am sure the people of York believe as well.
Please do not pretend to know anything about the training school experience when it is obvious your knowledge is so limited and outdated.
Kevin
- 2011-02-07
I really do not mind people who disagree with me, if those people were on the beach in Thailand life would be rather boring. I would like to see however those put out to pasture that have nothing to contribute to a discussion. yelling crappity crap crap from the sidelines is not a really effective way to promote change.
As for your warnings they are outdated, and it is a really sad statement when you say you cannot solve the problem from the inside. It is obvious you have given up the ghost and are now just barking at shadows. People willing to change the system will with or without your help and it is being done on a daily basis. I would suggest that those at York are doing it as well as other training schools.
I guess the key word here for you is worked meaning you no longer do it. That being the case how can you feel comfortable saying what it is like now? Your past experience might have been miserable but it is not the reality for everyone living here in China. It always amazes me when someone living a nomadic life declares something to be true when the reality is they never settled down and really tried to effect a change.
you might not be familiar with this but it is common knowledge that children's learning patterns are affected most from birth to age ten. Many training schools deal specifically with that age group, so their responsibility is huge. Knowing that many FTs are able to subtly impact the students lives as much as their parents or Chinese teachers.
HOPE DOES NOT CURE ANYTHING.
Maybe you want to retract that statement because if not it really shows how pathetic and miserable you must be. I do not say that to insult you but really to point out that if you really believe this life must not have any meaning for you.
I am no fool and will not allow myself to be misused or exploited. i would not let it happen in Canada nor will I let it happen here in China. If it happened to you, sympathy goes out to you. Do not assume however that all people are incapable of seeing the criminals and thieves, really it is more your shortcoming than anyone Else's.
I do agree that isolating the types of people who benefit from shady dealings will help, but I suggest it is only by actually being here and working through it that it can be done. By building a network of support in each individual city are the crooks going to be rooted out. Telling people never to come and work in china does not solve the problem at all. Maybe if you were here and established a foundation as opposed to cavorting around the country like a nomad you would know this.
The fact you had a good friend tell you he did not care shows what kind of people you associated with while you were here. Personally I would have nothing to do with someone like that as they do not match my beliefs or goals. Maybe if you were a little more dedicated to change and had some convictions you would have a better group of friends and your experience her would have been better.
But then i really doubt it as you have shown you care more about feeding your ego than you do being a responsible global citizen.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-06
If all of us who disagreed with you disappeared to a beach somewhere in Thailand you would feel much better since there would be nobody to disagree with you. But then you probably wouldn't even care to think like you are thinking right now.
I do feel I'm doing something by warning people to stay away from ALL TRAINING CENTERS in China because the problem is systemic, it's not solvable by working inside it. That is what I truly believe in.
I try not to complain randomly but when you have worked all over China like me and you see the EXACT SAME problems happening at completely different places, it's something you must realize as being beyond your control and is something you cannot change. I do remember some great teachers from when I was little but it was the experiences of growing up from when I was a teenager until I was in my mid twenties that shaped who I am today. HOPE DOES NOT CURE ANYTHING. Neither does working at a training center pretending your students like you because they know who you are as a person(you might not even be that good).
Crooks and criminals prey on people like you by giving you enough space to believe you're making a difference when you're only helping to continue the problem. This is not a personal attack on YOU. It's just true.
The problem can only be resolved by isolating the types of people who benefit from them. Then not allowing them to make any kind of money. If you believe that there are enough good people out there to change the system, great for you. But to further elaborate on something one of my known associates (and someone whom I used to consider a close friend) who is chinese and started his own school has said (in chinese, though), "I don't care about the teaching quality, I only care about how attractive you are to students."
Just because you are attractive does not mean you are a good teacher. Just because students like you and tell you they understand you doesn't mean they do. Stop pretending you understand people you don't know anything about.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-06
I can easily turn around and tell you maybe it's too much effort for you to actually know and feel what it's like to be disappointed to the point where you feel like your heart has been ripped out. You think it's okay to brush aside the bad things and pretend like they won't matter because in your world most people are good and decent and these problems won't persist. That is until you yourself have been screwed over and then you finally realize that other people being good on the inside isn't enough, they actually have to keep their promises and not think about lying to you or exploiting you.
Making money takes top priority at these places. Poorly and unprofessionally run places masquerading as educational places when they only want to rip off parents who themselves carry ignorance and prejudice towards foreign teachers shouldn't be allowed to exist! Maybe doing the right thing instead of just worrying about making a salary is also too much effort for you.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-06
You have also stated about places to work at which are raved and seen as very great. Yet you have yet to provide us with ANY information on these places. I could easily double the Hall of Shame list Silverboy made a couple of years back with my experience, but then as a responsible person I would HAVE TO find out ALL of the bad schools. If this were the case then we might as well put up a catalog where you can buy books of information on all of the crappy schools in all of China.
If you really DO KNOW good private schools, you or whoever works at these places should explain why they are actually GOOD. If you just come on here and give the typical corporate propaganda of how long your school has been around, how many students, the great apartments you provide yada yada yada you'll have egg all over your faces, guaranteed. Give us a more personal story of why this place is good compared with other places you have worked at. Also don't try to give us bs such as teachers not doing runners, people never leaving etc. Even Qinghua and Peking Uni has professors and teachers who have quit in disgust, you're not going to compare yourselves to those places, now are you??
Your information should have plenty of support as well. If you just come on here by yourself and talk as if all of us are miscreants who throw our frustrations on to society I can tell you that talking to you is frustrating in and of itself. However I am still doing it for the sake of everyone who reads on these boards and wants to know accurate information. Maybe you're just another corporate goon who's trying to put us down for the sake of your own vested interests all this time along. If you cannot give anything more than crappy rhetoric then you obviously can't be trusted with what you're saying.
Kevin
- 2011-02-06
@dragonized
My research has led me to refuse working for crap institutions be they universities, public schools or training schools. I do have the ability to empathize which is why I am responding to these posts. Attacking York and the people there is just wrong especially if they are trying to improve their situation. I myself have stepped into a position solely for the purpose of ensuring that foreign teachers are not abused.
For the people that do have bad experiences it is important that they post their experience with that particular school. As well they should investigate as deeply as they can before making such a major decision like coming here.
My research has also shown me there is a group of malcontents who refuse to listen and instead continue with the same statement. all training schools are crap. They offer no realistic solutions and will dismiss anyone who does not agree with them, calling people names and suggesting they previous employment was that of a fast food worker. There is no positive discourse or helpful ideas they just cry crappity crap crap crap. It also seems like those that do live here do not enjoy it always complaining about how unfair it is and bad the Chinese are. Look at the other posts and you will see daily comments complaining about this country and its people.
The REALITY is that things are changing and as long as there are those who try their best to do it in a postive way those changes will benefit a lot of people.
As for Thailand I was merely suggesting that maybe that the beaches would be a good place to live for the old and retired who are set in their ways and refuse to recognize that change can be good.
There has been nothing said on this thread that frightens me as most of it are the same old tired rantings that have been going on for years.
It wounds me deeply that you do not care what I think. If that was true though why respond to my posts?
I do know that people should stay retired if all they are going to do is whine, complain and generally add nothing worthwhile to a discussion.
Kevin
- 2011-02-06
Your grand idea of making China a better place isn't going to work
Why not?
Have you given up and decided that doing something worthwhile is too much effort?
If so the beaches of Thailand might be the best place for you to finish out your days. I heard Thailand is nice.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-06
Your research obviously has led you to believe what you want to believe instead of empathizing with other people's personal experiences. Your grand idea of making China a better place isn't going to work. You are putting hope and optimism in a group who don't know how to carry out properly a cause which is supposed to be for the better.
I'm sure you have many people on your side, and after many years of working in China you will have accomplished many things that many of us cannot do since we are no longer working there. Yet also be assured that there will be many more people who will have bad experiences with China and with being treated poorly. I myself didn't want to post on these boards for fear of retaliation, yet I decided to in the end because REALITY IS REALITY.
There will always be people like you as well as people like me who disagree on how to approach a problem. I stand by what I believe in and you can believe whatever it is you believe in. Rest assured though I could not care less about what you think of me.
Btw I have never even been to Thailand, your assumptions are way off the mark. Don't assume other people should stay retired just because they may have said something you're afraid of
Kevin
- 2011-02-06
That is where you are wrong Sir. I have done my research which is why I am responding to these posts. over the years the noble defenders of the ESL industry have been running roughshod over this site spewing their bile about all the training schools and its employees without any specific evidence.
Have you met Brad,Tom, Josh, James or any of the other teachers working at York? Have you sat down with them and had a conversation with them because if you have not then you are basically bashing random people, calling them weasels, goons or whatever other insulting names you have for people trying to say their school is not crap.
i have read plenty of posts from other teachers warning about a specific school and why to stay away from it. Those are helpful and I applaud their efforts to help new teachers avoid making mistakes, but when you or one of your cohorts shout CRAP crappity crap crap you are not helping anyone.
Except of course your own ego.
Here is an idea, why not try to be helpful and improve the situation here in China?
Or would that be too difficult for you and your friends?
If so maybe you should just take your retirement packages and spend your time in thailand trying to get into the pants of the young ladies there and leave the change to people who are actually trying to improve the world.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-05
If you go back to the earliest posts dating back to 2006 and 2007, you will find that ANYONE with ANYTHING NEGATIVE to say about ANY school in China would generally be verbally abused and brushed off by a majority of people who were posting on this board such as Linguisticus, Frank Zhang, and other morons who ALSO HAVE NEVER MET the people who got the shaft in China. For you to not do your research and just ASSUME people like us have nothing better to do than bash random people whom we have never met only shows the jaded side of your existence.
Kevin
- 2011-02-04
Is it not trying to assassinate someones character by calling them groveling weasels, goons or any of the other assorted names when they try to defend their school from unsubstantiated attacks?
I would understand if a person had direct contact with the people they are insulting but that does not seem to be the case here many of the times.
Dragonized
- 2011-02-04
That is very true. Considering how spoiled students, useless DOS's, idiotic FAO's, bosses who are f###ed in the head, and weasels try to make you lose face and even try to make you feel worthless as a human being I'd say giving back rather than just taking it is the ONLY EFFECTIVE way to go.
Considering how much we all get attacked so much even on these discussion boards, it's obvious that many of these "schools" have something to hide. If they didn't they wouldn't be trying to assassinate people's characters when they criticize the school.