Warren
- 2011-10-26
Just wondering why my comment was completely "edited" out, and I am not allowed to respond to Raoul? My response was reasoned, fair and accurate. It wasn't a flame or anything approaching it, and used no profanity. At this point it appears I am being censored because I disagree with Raoul. In fact, the only way he can win the argument is for me to be silenced. No he has won.
Cheers.
Raoul F. Duke
- 2011-10-24
Whatever.
I still maintain that contracts only covering non-permanent contract workers during the period when the employers actually have work for you to do is not new, not unusual, and not a scam.
One question asked earlier remains unanswered: You're claiming that you should get paid for the two months when there is no class, because the Chinese teachers do. Would you accept the same contract the Chinese teachers get- same benefits and same salary? Would you consider that fair?
San Migs
- 2011-10-24
I have no authority on this board. I make no claim to any
And nor should anyone. These boards are free to all, right?
Warren
- 2011-10-23
Raoul wrote:
Authority?
I have no authority on this board. I make no claim to any. I do have a lot of experience with EFL in China, but on this site I'm just another poster like anyone else.
No offense Raoul but just saying that doesn't make it true. Are you not "an accepted source of expert information or advice" here? Are there not a couple articles written by you lodged directly under the School and Recruiter Reviews header? Do you not have your own forum where you are the final judge of everything, and where you might have influential conversations about what goes on here in your inner sanctum? Whether you like it or not you obviously have a lot of weight here, and saying you don't is disingenuous.
If you want to crow over basically having an "argument" deemed not worth arguing with, please, knock yourself out.
The argument was worth having, and you happened to have made some misjudgements and premature statements that happened to conflict with the facts and the greater reality.
I just don't care. Whatever points can be made have been made; after that it's a vision issue.
Points have been made but there has been no concession. Some things are "vision issues," such as your statement that there's no logic in China, which is patently false because China has a space program and the world's 2nd GDP. Logic is being employed all over China every day. Other things, such as facts about what is and was common practice regarding 12 month pay periods for public school teachers are not merely vision. After I sited sources which supported my my position in general (though I admitted being wrong about it being common practice for all public school teachers to get 12 month contracts initially, when it was only given to those continuing on and highly qualified individuals), and countered yours, you wouldn't concede any point.
You never admitted to making a gaff in saying we get paid 10 months for 10 months of work, either, when we never fully work 10 months.
Unless you DO have authority, your accusation of "crowing" holds no weight, especially because you've made the weaker arguments. As for the intrinsic merit of what you say, I'd have more respect for you if you could lower yourself to admit you got anything wrong for any reason. Meanwhile, you've fought on the wrong side of the fence on this issue. And speaking of logic, there is no logic in the post you made and which I am responding to, it is all just assertion.
Warren
- 2011-10-23
Foxy wrote:
BTW, I never said explicitly or implied you're as bad a fool as the guy I mentionede You're not one, but you can be a bit domineering on here at times, even asking other posters to divulge personal info such as salary.
I ONLY asked that one question that is at all personal, I think, and only because that person said his or her salary was enough, which would then raise the question of how much is enough… I didn't know people were so competitive about their salaries and types of jobs. Some of the statements about who is a real teacher and who has a better job were a bit startling. I didn't think of it as outing someone as having a low salary, but as establishing what amount is enough for what (I know that relative to where and all that).
As for Raoul Duke, he posted some good stuff too. I agree with his view, but not because of his status or perceived status. In fact, he has banned me from his site some years ago, not that I'm regretful about that having happened!
Congratulations. The world of forums can be as nasty as the world of ESL teaching sometimes, and ESL teaching forums can be some of the worst. Yes, even one forum can be overwhelming and a bit of a sand pit.
you can be a bit domineering on here at times
If it seems that way, it's largely in response to the criticism I've received for standing up for teachers rights to get their full12 month salaries. Kind of bizarre to me that so many have gone against me on this. And when one is outnumbered one might be a bit more strident than otherwise. So, if I respond to 4 or 5 people challenging me, it might look like I'm a bully or domineering, but I think it's something else.
You must feel you volunteering yours gives you the right to ask others to divulge theirs!
That came after. I have your standard uni contract and the standard salary to go with it, and share many of the problems of others here. I just thought people should know they are, for lack a better word here, "entitled" to 12 months pay, and if they aren't aware of that then they won't even try to get it. Makes me wonder whose side of the fence others are on.
That said, I won't respond to your next response, should there be one. You can have the last word. Be my guest.
Now a bottle of cheap beer beckons me! Must go now.
I guess we all sound like much bigger @ssholes when we are just type on a webpage. Hard to know sometimes if someone is being ironic or not, just joking or being bitterly sarcastic. No hard feelings on my side. And my
will be, "enjoy the cheap beer, and cheers to being kicked of Raoul Duke's forum!"last words
Raoul F. Duke
- 2011-10-23
Authority?
I have no authority on this board. I make no claim to any. I do have a lot of experience with EFL in China, but on this site I'm just another poster like anyone else.
If you want to crow over basically having an "argument" deemed not worth arguing with, please, knock yourself out. I just don't care. Whatever points can be made have been made; after that it's a vision issue.
foxy
- 2011-10-23
Thanks for your extensive explanation. I accept a lot of what you have stated, but not all. I understand that you originally posted to try to be helpful, and that's commendable.
As for Raoul Duke, he posted some good stuff too. I agree with his view, but not because of his status or perceived status. In fact, he has banned me from his site some years ago, not that I'm regretful about that having happened! I feel I'm missing nothing by not being allowed to post on there. He's done me a favor! One board is enough to keep me ticking over.
I have my detractors too. At first, some years ago, I was a bit huffed when I was verbally attacked on this board. However, since then I have become thick-skinned, just like one of Turnoi's crocs.
BTW, I never said explicitly or implied you're as bad a fool as the guy I mentionede You're not one, but you can be a bit domineering on here at times, even asking other posters to divulge personal info such as salary. You must feel you volunteering yours gives you the right to ask others to divulge theirs! That's
being rather cute, isn't it? That said, I won't respond to your next response, should there be one. You can have the last word. Be my guest.
Now a bottle of cheap beer beckons me! Must go now.
C U!
Warren
- 2011-10-23
In reply Foxy:
Foxy wrote:
Wow! Raoul Duke is dittoing another poster's opinion regarding the 'sense of entitlement' charge you have mentioned! Coz the other poster posted it first! If so, that other poster will feel flattered! That will have surely made his day! Dunno if what you said will have made R's day!!
Raoul Duke, Foxy, Revina, whomever. It doesn't matter to me who said it first or who echoed it. I don't know or care who has more authority in your mind or on this or any forum. It appears you see "Raoul Duke" as having much more authority than yourself. Look at the way you fawn over him. It's embarrassing for both of you. Anyone can be right or wrong, and it doesn't matter to me WHO is right or wrong, only WHAT is right or wrong. We all have our own experiences and can contribute useful information, and any seeming authority can make a mistake (whether or not he or she will ever admit it). Your argument is that someone is a big-wig on this forum, and therefore is automatically right.
what can also seem less generous is when a sarcastic comment is made about foreign teachers on 5,000 RMB a month enjoying cheap Chinese beer and noodles, and having to work summer camps to make ends meet.
Since my salary is in that same range, you've misunderstood my meaning and the context in which it was made. Besides, those were two separate comments. One was specifically a response to those who argue that a 10 month contract is the norm; if we don't like it we can go somewhere else; and that we should be prepared to do work like summer camps. My response, after proving it is NOT the norm for continuing or qualified/experienced teachers, is that if one isn't willing to negotiate or stand up for oneself, which would also help other teachers, than they can enjoy their summer camp jobs.
The other comment was in response to ideas expressed that having money to buy beer and Chinese food was enough, or more than enough reward for full-time teaching work at a public school such as a university, even if ones salary was cut 1/6th of the pay one was entitled to.
Cheers
foxy
- 2011-10-22
As for detractors, well, when two people make the nonsensical "sense of entitlement" charge (and one is obviously dittoing the other), and another calls one a fool… it can seem less than generous, especially when it's way off the mark.
Wow! Raoul Duke is dittoing another poster's opinion regarding the 'sense of entitlement' charge you have mentioned! Coz the other poster posted it first! If so, that other poster will feel flattered! That will have surely made his day! Dunno if what you said will have made R's day!!
BTW, what can also seem less generous is when a sarcastic comment is made about foreign teachers on 5,000 RMB a month enjoying cheap Chinese beer and noodles, and having to work summer camps to make ends meet. Not true, the noodles part nor the necessity to work ummer camps. I for one earn 5,000. I HATE noodles and I'd NEVER work at a summer camp, and I can afford to eat relatively well.
Anyways, so what if you've got some detractors. Hasn't everyone?
Warren
- 2011-10-22
I think there are no detractors here. And I would NOT sign any contract that did not pay me for all the 12 months in case of a one-year commitment. And I don't want to find myself in a position to argue over contract details AFTER signing a contract; everything should be fine BEFORE signing a contract. In case it is not, then simply do not sign. As simple as that.
That sounds reasonable, but there's often the case of the "bait and switch." You get there, and then, surprise, they can't really get you a residency permit. Or, suddenly they shorten your contracted period… There's all sort of tricks. If one lands someplace where that stuff can be fought off, I guess one's lucky.
As for detractors, well, when two people make the nonsensical "sense of entitlement" charge (and one is obviously dittoing the other), and another calls one a fool… it can seem less than generous, especially when it's way off the mark.
Some posters can admit when they're wrong – as I openly did about the 10 month contract being the standard initial contract for inexperienced teachers – and others won't admit any mistake. Those that won't admit getting something wrong may have been in China so long they can't stand to lose face.