What does the Acronym GW Stand For?

You will get no argument from me here. Well stated and on point!

Fox Poster is normally spot on(apart from the debit card) The way he has worked China, is an example to the rest of us-nice wife-no need to return to shithole UK- can't be bad when I hear how other FT's have faired post-China- wo shi dui de hai shi wo shi dui de?

Wrong, you turn a blind eye, does that make you any better? Sorry, not going to agree on working on illegal visas, not now, not ever, and I don't care if you don't agree or dislike me saying so. This forum is a DEMOCRACY, get that straight in your mind, then we can discuss like reasonable human beings.

Let me provide you with more background information about my two former colleagues on 50 RMB/hour. This might well be of interest to posters who insist that I settle for too little salary-wise here. BTW, I believe I originally introduced "Am I Right or Am I Right?" to this board, but I didn't know at that time that it would be eagerly adopted by another poster who may be trying to annoy by using it constantly.

Colleague A: Actually, a Chinese-Londoner from a wealthy family. Introduced to the largest private Shanxi K12 by a notorious Chinese agent. Said agent will contact laowei he thinks are floggable whose resumes he has seen on this board's resumes section. Arrived late because he chose to come on a Z visa. Is here to perfect his Chinese so that he can eventually engage successfully in assisting exceedingly wealthy local Chinese to invest in London realty. Complained about the school's welcoming dinner and looked down on the locals. Told me that the really rich Chinese here order restaurant dishes at 10,000 RMB/dish. I was fortunate he arrived late. That's why I was taken on temporarily.

Colleague B: Chinese-Californian from a poor family. Here through a Guangdong lady agent. A down-to-earth bloke not teaching on a Z. Dislikes the US. Looking to marry a local Chinese and settle here.

Both of them were quickly seeking extra weekend and evening work, with EF and other private language schools of the provincial capital. But they were having difficulty obtaining such work, presumably because of their Asian appearances. Colleague A was on 25 classes/week while colleague B was on 20 classes/week.

To me, free school grub + 6,000 RMB received in cash for a 20 X 40 class/week timetable during a month that encompassed 5 days' local holidays was a fair deal. But Taiyuan remains badly polluted, so I had no regrets leaving there.

Didn't see this post. [edited]

Sniggering Hyenas are scavengers who try and humiliate/shame a person to win an argument due to not having any basic moral values. They also believe that following the lead of the worst predators (in this case a metaphor for unscrupulous countries) makes them the pillar of virtue and in the right. In other words, "right" is defined by obtaining the ends by any means possible. GW's lie but at least do it within the boundaries of what benefits them. Hyenas, on the other hand will jump at any opportunity to attack folks who stand up for decency while staring with bewildering, beseeching eyes and snarls things such as, "am I right or am I right"?

As for me, I dare say that I will be dealing with Chinese people at various points in the future in some capacity, but I might not necessarily stay here.

I guess there would be a reason that you aren't working, you appear to be of a slightly predatory nature.

It is abusing a position of trust regardless, Chinese girls can often be immature and naiive.
There’s several other girls around anyway. Teaching in China might not be a career as such but you have to have morals somewhere.
You don’t want to s**t on your own doorstep either.

Forgive me please ,John, but are you making this up as you go along? Yesterday you replied to me saying that it was okay to have relationships with university students as long as they are not at your school; and that is where the boundary should be. Are you spinning plates-which way do you want it old chum- do I answer yesterday John, or today John?

Yeah it's the local chinese way of saying "Mei Ban Fa", which can sometimes be disguised as "mei yi si".

It is abusing a position of trust regardless, Chinese girls can often be immature and naiive.
There’s several other girls around anyway. Teaching in China might not be a career as such but you have to have morals somewhere.

You don’t want to s**t on your own doorstep either.

Fondling university students is all well and good, but if they are from the university that you work at... NO.
There has to be a boundary somewhere.

Hello John. I couldn't agree with you less, dear boy. If your girlfriend is also a student at your university it is very convenient; not least of all because your flat will be near to her dorm. There will be of course small risks involved; if the school authorities are not too pleased with the liason for example; but when all said and done, most of us do not have a career to put in jeopardy, since oral English teaching as an FT is merely bumming around for a few years. If you are keen on your student girlfriend and her keen on you, then reset those boundaries-am I right or am I right?

I taught at a middle school in my last job, so no fondling of students there then.

shi de, the best you can get there is "an apple for the teacher"

Sounds rather complicated, I think you would need a chinese person, at least to help you write a destination address and deal with the rail staff

What has happened to all of those students you should have been fondling at that University then, San Mig, one of those can talk to the station master? They will give you a ticket for your sent-ahead-baggage, which you can show to any station employee(a grunt will suffice) They will release to you your belongings; no address involved.

I will still dissect your post now. I was wrong to criticize you for lunchtime drinking, still don't think it is fair on your students however.

But I'm INSIDE the great wall! It's irrelevant what 'nothing outside of China is' in my case.

But what if you need to return the UK or travel out of China? Then it would become very relevant would it not?

I disagree with what you say will happen in the future here re the cost of living.

I'm no economist, but still can't agree. Items have increased in price, others haven't. The problem is FT's salaries in the public sector remain the same.

And last year in a poor county of Shanxi, I paid just 5 RMB for a haircut

Very good value indeed with the rinse and shampoo included. But a poor county of Shanxi does not equate with all of modern day China.

My t/a told my wife a former middle school classmate of hers had just started a job as a hairdresser there, on just 800 RMB/month.

Problem is with that, for younger chinese person who leaves poor county of Shanxi for example, that salary won't cut it in Beijing or Shanghai. And what choice do they have but to go to the city to seek a better job with higher pay? It's a double edged sword, more chances in the cities, but higher living costs.

Fair enough it is for the best, [edited]

I would have wished you good luck and a happy retirement, but no more, do what you want, it's your call as to whether to be a nice person like other posters on these boards.

Stay put in the PRC, that's my advice to you

Even if he has no pension?

and nor will it remain much in China any longer.

I can agree with you on this. FT wages in china haven't risen in line with other wages in general over the past few years.

It is nothing outside of China, and nor will it remain much in China any longer. Hairdressers are earning 10 thousand rmb per month, possibly more?

But I'm INSIDE the great wall! It's irrelevant what 'nothing outside of China is' in my case. I disagree with what you say will happen in the future here re the cost of living. And last year in a poor county of Shanxi, I paid just 5 RMB for a haircut, including a rinse and shampoo. My t/a told my wife a former middle school classmate of hers had just started a job as a hairdresser there, on just 800 RMB/month.

And drinking at lunchtime is not something you should be proud of, no matter how cheap it is.

I'll ignore your advice - I have the right to be proud of what I want.

I shall no longer reply to any of your posts.

You mean ems? Not sure what you mean about the train?

I certainly do not San Mig, I mean you can toddle down the Railway Station with your package or suitcases, and ask them to take it on the train to whatever station; very convienient-have you tried dragging your belongings through a Chinese train and then finding somewhere to put them? Best do that a day or two before you are taking yourself.

Good to see some SH reinforcement back to give you support; us GW have been rampant, running wild lately. Good to see Turnoi back again...Phew! you ,Drags and atsa must have exclaimed in relief-he'll tan out ferret-like backsides.

5000 or so a month for doing very little teachin few hours pressure-less in a county takes some beating, doesn't it?

It is nothing outside of China, and nor will it remain much in China any longer. Hairdressers are earning 10 thousand rmb per month, possibly more?

And drinking at lunchtime is not something you should be proud of, no matter how cheap it is.

Anyway to each their own, everyone has their vices.

Hope your pension payments get sorted soon, lord knows UK companies can be a nightmare to deal with.

I actually support the view that FTs aren’t paid that much. There is this stupid stereotype that FTs are unqualified and on the dole/welfare back home. Actually, would arguably earn a decent salary back home.

Not in my case, John. Maybe I'm the exception to your stupid generalization ( stereotype). Came here after 2 years' jobless back in Scotia, because wasn't interested in being taken for a ride in a menial hospitality job or trying to sell houses or insurance back home, commission-paid only.

I maintain that China's the best bet for enlightened folks who know there's EASY money to be made here if they look the part, namely white, and aren't too illiterate! 5000 or so a month for doing very little teachin few hours pressure-less in a county takes some beating, doesn't it? Especially for those who relish drinking at lunchtimes and then teaching! Can't you extrapolate, that way's better for your students - you speak slower and are jollier coz of alcohol so they can follow you better, and class time just flies by?

It is your use of am I right or am I right that rubs people up the wrong way.

I actually support the view that FTs aren’t paid that much. There is this stupid stereotype that FTs are unqualified and on the dole/welfare back home. Actually, would arguably earn a decent salary back home.

Didn't know you could use the train to deliver stuff?

No problem about sending stuff ahead, San Mig; best to get your timing right, so when you arrive yourself, your stuff is waiting for you at the station of your destination. It attracts a small charge, of course.

just pop the 150 yuan oven on the train the day before

Didn't know you could use the train to deliver stuff?

There are only 2 SH's, you and Mancunian. Nobody else.

Oh that could well be it. It certainly won't be the first time judging by some of the threads on here. Of course those SHs still left might have had a look around and noticed that they are looking a bit thin on the ground and in doing so decided, like so many species do in the animal world, that trying to look bigger than you really are can sometimes scare away other animals that pose a threat to them.

Guess again, not in the UK either. Ding!

My point still stands. Someone working part time who pays into the system, should be allowed to get benefits from that system. I know compassion is a new concept in your part of the world, but I remain hopeful you can learn.

I didn't mention I was receiving benefits. Either way, someone who works part time should get housing benefits. MP's get a grocery allowance of 160 pounds a week.,.....oh my heart bleeds, bring out the violins!

Cor blimey, San Mig, these MP's are certainly on the gravy train; but 106 lbs of groceries would take a bit of moving, and a bit of eating; and a big price difference to boot; I mean to say, 160 lbs of asparagus has got to be worth considerably more than 160 lbs of spuds...am i right or am I right?

Ha! Well stated. Although from what this poster has said in earlier posts I doubt he is young enough to change his ways anymore, not that older people can't. It's just that he can't.

When you don't speak the local language fluently, you are cut off from reality. Not being able to do things such as reading magazines, books, and newspapers, watching anything on TV without subtitles, knowing how locals think when they converse in their own respective languages can make a person drown in their own romances of where they are at. Of course, being so ignorant will let them think that the problems for said country they are living in as pointed out by others have absolutely nothing to do with reality anyway, since they don't have the intelligence to comprehend it.

Ha ha ha, John, going to have to correct you; forum tradition dictates that all those that are perceived to ingratiate themselves to the Chinese are referred to as 'Grovelling Weasels' (GW) and after a little research, all those GW's should refer to those FT's, (including ones currently receiving food stamps) who dislike the Chinese and never have a good word to say about them or their country, are lovingly referred to as 'Sniggering Hyenas'

Ah yes. But after observing the behavior of the sniggering hyenas for a while you must come to the conclusion that much of what they say makes no sense at all.
I think young John is showing fine form. It's like he's been posting here for years.

Ha ha ha, John, going to have to correct you; forum tradition dictates that all those that are perceived to ingratiate themselves to the Chinese are referred to as 'Grovelling Weasels' (GW) and after a little research, all those GW's should refer to those FT's, (including ones currently receiving food stamps) who dislike the Chinese and never have a good word to say about them or their country, are lovingly referred to as 'Sniggering Hyenas'

There is no such rule, and you do not dictate forum rules, neither do I. If I really dictated forum rules a poster such as you might have been banned from posting a long time ago. John was merely stating facts that are useful and honest. You are still caught up in your little fantasy of trying to gild the lily that is China and incessantly slandering new posters as being one sided.

But you are totally right in saying that China is a smashing country; it's people friendly and eager to please. Well said ,John.

The "John" poster did not say China was great because it was people friendly and eager to please, you said that. With that statement you show that you do nothing but use China as a source to draw out your own Narcissism from. You have had enough people who pretended to be friendly towards you and enough folks who tried pleasing you that your own ego thinks that's what China really is.

I didn't mention I was receiving benefits. Either way, someone who works part time should get housing benefits. MP's get a grocery allowance of 160 pounds a week.,.....oh my heart bleeds, bring out the violins!

ASTF already has a pre-assumed assumption of who you are as a person, that makes it easier to justify his attacks towards people he doesn't know. The amount of depth offered in his remarks is on a scale so titanic it is hard to fathom for mere mortal souls such as myself, lol!

You are twisting things. Read, read, read and then read some more.

I didn't mention I was receiving benefits. Either way, someone who works part time should get housing benefits. MP's get a grocery allowance of 160 pounds a week.,.....oh my heart bleeds, bring out the violins!

Wrong. Not on the mainland. And yes you can get chocolate on the mainland. Also HK is not so great, lots leave there. You sound like a GW the more you post, shall not bother responding to you anymore.

Fortunately San migs some of us don't find it so difficult to find and hang onto a job so such a problem is not something I'm really worried about. It's great that the British government is there to support people such as yourself who can't manage it.

Please do dare John

Audere est Facere - see what you can learn at school!

Actually if you go to a local university or sometimes secondary school for evening classes it's not expensive at all. They have virtually no fixed costs and its all very much a kind of 'for the community' type of vibe. I myself have attended classes at several locations. Private schools that cater for summer school students are expensive but then just like one of your previous rather heated posts towards me suggested all you are doing there is making money for the owner of the school. The teachers themselves are not paid well.

Too many newbie GWs are still going through the tourist phase. The shock will hit them sooner or later.

China despite its imperfections is a great country and there is a need to accept Chinese culture, but that ‘culture’ that one must accept does not have to involve getting deceived.

Well, Chinese people do lie to save face, but it doesn’t mean that such liars should always not suffer the consequences.

Strewth, so what's the problem, 45 mins is not an hour yes? Not on my watch anyway.

Local teachers often receive bribes from parents for favours such as giving kids special attention if they are academically challenged, sitting certain kids at the front of a class etc... Where do you think that those cars and i-phones come from? The i-phone fairy?

It has been reported that some people even buy jobs, even paying a year’s salary in advance as they know that the potential for grey money is so great.

Cost of living is immaterial

Haha. Really? I'd guess most people would disagree with you on that.

As for average wages in china here are a selection of figures that would suggest FTs are still doing alright in china.

100-200million still living in poverty (depends where you draw the poverty line though many seem to think that line is too low so this figure could be even higher). The CIA suggests the figure is 13.4% of the the population under the poverty line. Even the Chinese themselves admit 200million still live under it

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-12-31/news/36079605_1_wealth-gap-li-keqiang-poverty-line

Average wages by province

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-07/06/content_15555503.htm

Even in the most expensive/developed cities teachers basic wage (ie not including housing, flight etc.) still exceeds the average.

The Chinese national bureau of statistics claims that the disposable income of an average Chinese household is just over 12,000rmb a year. Given that many FTs don't pay rent, utilities, etc. I'd say that they would have significantly more disposable income than this.

It's simply not true! Fts are paid better salaries than most of the local teachers and pay less tax than them! Give it a rest, man. You don't half post some rubbish!

What is of importance is the cost of living and seeing as the cost of living is significantly lower in China than it is in the UK then an FT working in China is in a far better position than their equivalent in the UK would be. You go out and find a part time job working about 20hours a week then come back and post about your quality of life.

You are just being aggressive now.

Cost of living is immaterial,you earn less than other chinese IN China as an FT, and many chinese who don't say it to you are only being polite. Get into the culture a bit more, find out how much savings they have, and not just in banks. You strike me as immature and naive and a sell out GW.

I've made my point about working part time in the UK, not going to make it again.

Good day.

The point is if you don't have any money in the first place then exchange rates are of little consequence to you. What is of importance is the cost of living and seeing as the cost of living is significantly lower in China than it is in the UK then an FT working in China is in a far better position than their equivalent in the UK would be. You go out and find a part time job working about 20hours a week then come back and post about your quality of life.

50 rmb a class is an insult.

That private school is the biggest private bilingual K12 school in Shanxi. There are also some ELIC FTs there. I know they aren't paid above average pay rates in China, in fact a little below. But much higher than 50 RMB/class. By the way, Taiyuan still suffers serious air pollution. I couldn't recommend living there because of that.

You quote your own personal situation as a fact, but I can tell you as a fact then from my view, that for what you are receiving as pay you are being robbed blind, even if it is outside Hohhot. Chinese look down on 5,000 rmb a month now. My fact is an FT working part time at home with housing benefit entitlements would be better off, again, we are all different. Not personal.

I'm not working now, and don't ever itend to do so. Anyways, a matter of a few months ago I was working. And two of my colleagues were on 50 RMB/class. They were of Chinese appearance, but spoke English same as a native speaker would, and had Western passports! That's what some FTs here are making! An eyeopener, indeed!

. As for an FT pension plan or a Chinese state pension plan, I've not paid instalments when I taught, so it's fair enough that I'm not entitled to social welfare here. Fortunately, I don't need any more pension plans than the ones I already have, and neither will my wife, as I planned financial matters in such a way that we can live well here. When I first came here, I'd arrived after two years on the dole in the UK. China gave me a teaching job that was much easier and less stressful than the purgatory I'd gone through in Scotland as a registered teacher. From an employment perspective, I'd say China has done me a huge favour.

There are definitely also other westerners living happily here who have gotten what they wanted. We all have differing needs, and some of us came here with a lot of money from the West or subsequently received a good sum of money as an inheritance. So, we needn't worry about pension plans. I can still live a lot better here than if I were somebody back in Scotland on a full State pension in a government-provided council house. That's a fact, and that's why I prefer living in China.

Hello Foxy,

I'm going to reply again, no need for if I may is there, we are on amenable terms yes?

It's not about whether you have paid installments when you have taught, although I see what you mean. The fact is the chinese government does not even OFFER the option for those FT's who do want to. After you have finished a two year contract in Hong Kong in the public sector, and I suspect Macau is the same, you can either keep the plan going if you renew, or cash it in if you leave. What option in China? But as you say you are fortunate in that you are secure, but what of those FT's that are not, that is the only point I am trying to make, again not personal to you.

You quote your own personal situation as a fact, but I can tell you as a fact then from my view, that for what you are receiving as pay you are being robbed blind, even if it is outside Hohhot. Chinese look down on 5,000 rmb a month now. My fact is an FT working part time at home with housing benefit entitlements would be better off, again, we are all different. Not personal.

Good luck in hh
SMGS

and it wasn't long before I was missing China. I was very glad to return to Inner Mongolia.

Again, everyone is different. I pretty much hated Inner mongolia, the weather is too extreme, the only parts I found interesting were the mongolian culture/language/script and the excellent lamb based food. The han there have a bad reputation much the same as say russians and other former soviet types who ended up in Siberia.

I find myself missing England (my home country) and spain where I have numerous relatives, after even 10 months teaching contract is up in China. Even If I didn't go home and I prefer to save my salary for that, I would travel outside of China.

I did try, obviously unsuccessfully, to indicate the bit about "not all relating to the topic" to say that not everyone was on that bandwagon. I had also neglected to throw in a couple of other names. So, you're right - (on this occasion... you really ought to stop saying that "am I right, or am I right"... especially if you're unwilling to say "oh, I was wrong") - on this particular thread, you had stayed somewhat away from the topic started by C2... and yet, both yourself and Foxy (as you wanted to point out) were defending Silverboy and Turnoi - without acknowledging the point that C2 and I were making.

Sure, I've read some GOOD posts by Turnoi and Silverboy - when the original post (aka OP) was a question. However, when it's a negative review, then it all just becomes the same old bandwagon (do you know that term, old boy?). I, for one, would like a variant on the next Turnoi or Silverboy... the one who actually thinks the facts are important, and doesn't just bitch about the bad stuff... but can see things in a more unbiased, objective manner.

Is that really a bad thing??

You stay in China, Foxy poster; there's nowhere you'd recognise to go back to. Now am I right or am I right?

Of course you're right. The last time I went back there (for a holiday) was 8 years ago, and it wasn't long before I was missing China. I was very glad to return to Inner Mongolia.

Let's see... the s**t that C2 got was.... a post by Turnoi (with minimal validity, as well as such a generalisation as to be ignored, as well as a not too well veiled insinuation), a post by Dragonized suggesting that those who don't have a problem here (or can actually live past it) are extremely deluded - and obviously shouldn't be teaching (or any other work) in China, and a stack of other alternating posts by them, yourself, Mancunian, and Foxy... (not all of those relating to C2's post, or that topic in general - in case you were about to jump on my case for in inappropriate inclusion - just looking over the reply listing). So, basically, the same sort of stuff that C2 and myself are saying happens regarding reviews, is happening to us (including the plethora of insults...). Or, in forum parlance - 'fangirl/boy-ism'.

So, 4 people re-posting the same stuff over and over again.... and still, no facts! Lots of opinions, no facts...... :(

Hello there

Foxy Poster and myself have expressed the opinion that China is a jolly nice place to live, and that a certain school, namely YunchengIELTS, is a splendid place to work, especially for those of us who prefer to work illegally, or are obliged to because we don't have any degrees. Foxy Poster and Mancunian Poster both have degrees; however, I think we agree that degrees are not necessarry for oral English teachers. Now the other part of that 'four people re-posting the same stuff' (and I have no idea (yet again) what 'fangirl/boy-ism'. means exactly, but it seems to indicate that we write 'identically agreeing posts') totally diagree with Foxy Poster and myself, regarding the aforementioned. How we can be in cahoots as you imply is as difficult to fathom as your acronyms? Now am I right or am I right? With respect, you should not lump Posters together, just because they all diagree with you.

I think if you ask the mods to check the ip on that post, it would prove it is not by me.

I did not write that antagonistic post, and I have campaigned for an eslcafe.com style forum all along, with ip registration.

In Response To: Re: turnoi silverboy and yaddayaddayadda (Mancunian)

Hello again...
This is getting very off-topic!!

I'd say it also deserves its own thread (although, it probably already has one... or hundreds!)

Firstly - EAP is an acronym that I'd expect most experienced, and certainly ALL (decently) qualified English teachers to know. Also, given the number of jobs that advertise for EAP English teachers, I'd say you've put yourself at a distinct disadvantate.

TBH... sorry, but it's now so ingrained into the English written (and often spoken) language, that it's now 'normal'. To not know it, and especially to not teach it, is doing a great dis-service to your students. Acronyms are a significant part of the English language - even used in Business English (FYI, BTW, etc).

While I personally agree that our language shouldn't become "too sloppy", the reality is that languages change, they morph, they get to the point that actual meanings of words are the opposite of their original meaning. We should be teaching our students to be able to understand (and use) modern English - not an English that is decades (or centuries) old. So, basically, it gets up your nose? Tough!! It's something you'll have to deal with! So, no, you're not right. You're expressing your personal opinion, which, going by the way such acronyms have impregnated and taken over our language (especially the written language in sms, email, etc), it's an opinion in a very small minority!

"Why not just type it out?" - why does any acronym exist? Space and time! It's not 'dismissive' in any way. Is 'UNESCO' dismissive? 'UNICEF'? 'CELTA' dismissive? 'IT'? How about 'ps', 'pps', 'ppps'??? If something has become so commonplace (and perhaps cliched), that having it as an acronym is somehow appropriate, doesn't it make more sense just to skip past it as quickly as possible?

Anyway, as I said at the beginning - we're off-topic, and should be thread on it's own..

Long old monologue, old chum, for a topic that you regard as off-topic.

Well I certainly hope that this over-use of acronyms is just one of those cool, temporary fads that the masses come up with (and subsequently fade) from time to time. Talking of 'cool' when not referring to the temperature, is a fad that keeps coming and going since Charles Dickens used it(and maybe hundreds of years before that. Nothing is new on the face of the earth, dear boy.

Let's get one thing clear, I am not a genuine English teacher, merely an oral English type teacher. Are you the same, or are you qualified to teach the English English, or the Americans English? So, I don't suggest I am all that bright, and I do have trouble with all these silly acronyms.

By the way, what does yaddayyadday.....mean exactly- you can give me a lesson, please?

Hello again...

This is getting very off-topic!!

I'd say it also deserves its own thread (although, it probably already has one... or hundreds!)

Firstly - EAP is an acronym that I'd expect most experienced, and certainly ALL (decently) qualified English teachers to know. Also, given the number of jobs that advertise for EAP English teachers, I'd say you've put yourself at a distinct disadvantate.

TBH... sorry, but it's now so ingrained into the English written (and often spoken) language, that it's now 'normal'. To not know it, and especially to not teach it, is doing a great dis-service to your students. Acronyms are a significant part of the English language - even used in Business English (FYI, BTW, etc).

While I personally agree that our language shouldn't become "too sloppy", the reality is that languages change, they morph, they get to the point that actual meanings of words are the opposite of their original meaning. We should be teaching our students to be able to understand (and use) modern English - not an English that is decades (or centuries) old. So, basically, it gets up your nose? Tough!! It's something you'll have to deal with! So, no, you're not right. You're expressing your personal opinion, which, going by the way such acronyms have impregnated and taken over our language (especially the written language in sms, email, etc), it's an opinion in a very small minority!

"Why not just type it out?" - why does any acronym exist? Space and time! It's not 'dismissive' in any way. Is 'UNESCO' dismissive? 'UNICEF'? 'CELTA' dismissive? 'IT'? How about 'ps', 'pps', 'ppps'??? If something has become so commonplace (and perhaps cliched), that having it as an acronym is somehow appropriate, doesn't it make more sense just to skip past it as quickly as possible?

Anyway, as I said at the beginning - we're off-topic, and should be thread on it's own....

I'm altered the 'subject' line... it's been in my mind, but this post just proves it!

Insulting a person because they pose a point of view different to yours is just... ridiculous!

Instead of just insulting (or insinuating about) a person, how about actually countering the argument they made??? Or at least show some reason why what's been written is somehow not correct?

(in case you've forgotten, the main argument is "Turnoi and Silverboy post mostly indiscriminately negative posts/replies to any negative review of any school, recruiter, or agent... don't bother to check the validity of any post, and (I'll add) offer up only insults to those who offer an alternative (more positive) review of those schools, recruiters or agents". If you've got a large base of evidence to prove otherwise - compared to what C2 and I see - I'd really like to see it...)

Wow, you areprobably Chinese. Your Chinglish even comes through in that short sentence.

My mistake.

But I still think you should be getting 5,500 or even 6,000 rmb for that.

Personally I would want at least 5,500 rmb for 16 classes a week now, they should even pay 6,000 rmb, you have experience, it is time for them to pay you what you deserve, but that is just me.

With each class usually being 45mins therefore that would be 10 - 14 clock hours. I would have thought you'd know that?

I don't care what you think I should know. I'll do things my own way. I want to know how many classes per week, not class HOURS, thank you very much. Your advice is not needed at all.

If one likes smoking and beer, you couldn't even live the way I live in China in the west if you were working there on low pay! My daily living expenses are 4 big bottles of beer, 30 fags + cooking lamb hotpot, fried eggs, noddles, steamed bread 'toast' costing 10 RMB, 7.5 RMB, 20 RMB = say 40 RMB/day.

Everyone is different. I don't smoke, don't like beer so much, more a red wine drinker, and detest eggs and noodles everyday and chinese steamed bread. I do like lamb hotpot with plenty of spud and veggies however.

I repeat, are you eligible for housing benefits in China? We all know the answer to that one.

San Migs, I think you've misunderstood - 12 hours a week means 720 minutes = 16 x 45-minute classes a week. That's what I used to prefer. Why? Because that'll give me a free day in the 5 day working week.

Doesn't change the fact that the currency, due to being kept artificially low, is absolutely worthless outside of China.

What relvance is that to the average man on the streets of the UK? If you spend all your income meeting minimum living standards and are left with little or no cash in your back pocket having done so then what difference does it make if the pound is strong relative to the RMB?

the fact is there are not many that only offer 12 hours per week, most are 14-18 classes per week for around 5,500 month.

With each class usually being 45mins therefore that would be 10 - 14 clock hours. I would have thought you'd know that?

How many FT's in China can prove they have a clear criminal record from their country of origin, and would leave China to do so to obtain said documents? Those that do have nothing to hide, would only do so under duress, the rest with something to HIDE, would simply leave China and work elsewhere. It is already happening in Guangdong, let's see what happens in the next few years.

Guangdong is developed. I dislike developed parts of China. Not my problem if China lets foreign criminals teach!

Evening Foxy,

In China my money has much more buying power than in the UK for daily living costs.

Doesn't change the fact that the currency, due to being kept artificially low, is absolutely worthless outside of China. For chinese beer and food and other items in China it is more than adequate however. You seem content to live on a chinese level, nothing wrong with that. I never bought western food much in china except pasta from the supermarkets, the odd steak or kfc now and then, that was about it. My favourite places were the little muslim places, +1 to China for those. Chinese food in the UK is terrible.

As for British employers in the field of education in the UK, they tend to be much more demanding than Chinese EFL employers, and even more demanding than European employers in the field of education.

That perhaps just goes to show a difference in standards of control and observation, and transparency in the government. I've seen chinese teachers showing pirated movies in class, or coming into classes after a baijiu fuelled dinner. That would just not fly in other countries, not only the UK. Also FT's in China don't receive a pension, free healthcare, or entitlement to any government benefits, even a part time teacher in the UK would be entitled to housing benefits. Again, not personal, just my opinions on this differ from yours.

I will always maintain that teaching 12 clock hours/week for at least 5,000 RMB/month plus rent-free accommodation plus the rest of the standard employment package here is an exceptional deal in the teaching profession that is only available in the PRC. It doesn't suit many, but it is exactly what I seek!

the fact is there are not many that only offer 12 hours per week, most are 14-18 classes per week for around 5,500 month. The accommodation is rent free, you are right on the money about that. You keep saying it is an exceptional deal or something unique to the PRC and refuse to budge on this point. I maintain there is far better out there in China/the world and you are selling yourself short, but again not personal. You have found your own idyll, each to their own.

I think I'll leave it at that.

Good luck in IM,
San Migs/Al

Most FTs 'teaching' EFL in China wouldn't and needn't know the meaning of that acronym. So, I'll discount what you expect in that regard. What's surprising to me here in the PRC is that most FTs can't distinguish between EFL and ESL. That should tell you sth about the average FT here, and the low English levels of many Chinese students.

Though perhaps it is time these questions were raised?

How many FT's in China can prove they have a clear criminal record from their country of origin, and would leave China to do so to obtain said documents? Those that do have nothing to hide, would only do so under duress, the rest with something to HIDE, would simply leave China and work elsewhere. It is already happening in Guangdong, let's see what happens in the next few years.

Going off on a tangent; another reason that we should hold back from labelling the Chinese as devious liars-news is filtering through that major British food outlets have been palming customers off with up to 40% horsemeat in beefburgers-we are talking about Tesco(now all over China) as the main offender. No, you stay in China, Foxy, they tend to be more honest and transparent than in the UK, now am I right or am I right?

I didn't know that Tesco had been up to dirty tricks of that nature. That's very bad. One would have expected Chinese retailers to be up to that kind of fraudulent activity. It seems Western retailers can't be trusted either. I'm living in a county of Hohhot. There are no western supermarkets local to me, not that I need them. It's convenient for me to go downtown by bus, but it can take up to 2 hours though it only costs 1 RMB. I seldom venture downtown. For those of you who know Hohhot, I live within 3 minutes on foot of that magnificent Gothic golden-spired Gong Da building of the Electric University.

I don't think China is more honest than the UK. Chinese people often tell many lies, but they're not good at doing so. The British tell less lies as a rule, but they may expect to get away with fobbing off people with obvious insincere bull. That's bad culture that reflects unjustified arrogance.

Also why are chinese social media sites allowed in western countries, yet facebook, twitter, youtube, and some others are not in China?
Is China aiming to follow the Iran model?

Media control and media manipulation are never good things. Another factor that controls one's freedom in any society in which one is immersed is how much money one has. In China my money has much more buying power than in the UK for daily living costs. I put that above everything else here.

As for British employers in the field of education in the UK, they tend to be much more demanding than Chinese EFL employers, and even more demanding than European employers in the field of education. But I reckon that American employers operating in all areas of the economy in the US and abroad are more stingy. Their staff only get about a fortnight's annual vacation in many occupations!

I will always maintain that teaching 12 clock hours/week for at least 5,000 RMB/month plus rent-free accommodation plus the rest of the standard employment package here is an exceptional deal in the teaching profession that is only available in the PRC. It doesn't suit many, but it is exactly what I seek!

No, you stay in China, Foxy, they tend to be more honest and transparent than in the UK

I don't have international press transparency figures to hand, but next time if you pass through Hong Kong, pick up a copy of the scmp in english, then when you get to the mainland compare that with an edition of china daily or shenzhen daily. While press freedom in HK is now less transparent and objective than before, it is still light years ahead in terms of the mainland, as is the UK. Sorry, just cannot agree here. Also why are chinese social media sites allowed in western countries, yet facebook, twitter, youtube, and some others are not in China?

Is China aiming to follow the Iran model?

Turnoi often catches people out for their use of Chinglish and offers valid arguments which is more than what many poor quality Chinese employers offer.

Though it's very probable that 'Silverboy' won't post on ESLTB in the future, I'd be surprised if Turnoi has retired as a poster. I agree with you that both of them did sterling work posting on ESLTB. I'd like to add that Raoul Duke's occasional posts on this board were well worth the read too. I suspect that his lack of activity on here was due to illness, which tragically turned out to be terminal.

Yes, couple of real characters, Turnoi and Silverboy, and I hope they'll return. I never came across Raoul Duke, but it's clear that he was held in high esteem.

Going off on a tangent; another reason that we should hold back from labelling the Chinese as devious liars-news is filtering through that major British food outlets have been palming customers off with up to 40% horsemeat in beefburgers-we are talking about Tesco(now all over China) as the main offender. No, you stay in China, Foxy, they tend to be more honest and transparent than in the UK, now am I right or am I right?

Actually, C2 - I agree!! (so, I guess we're both in the minority!)
I have found that virtually ALL negative posts about various schools - or individuals - result in a comment by any of the aforementioned as if they had personal knowledge of that person, and all the relevant facts!!!

Now, the problem with this (and it's a BIG problem, is that there are 'teachers' who come out here, don't get things the way they want, and then just bag out a school or manager or DoS... just to vent their rage! If a wannabe employee of a certain place then is looking to see about accepting a contract, they do a search, and find a while pile of crap about that school - all the negative responses, all the bashing, all the 'don't ever work for these guys - they rip you off' etc etc.... it would turn you off!

However, the school and all the rest could be fine!

Actually, that was my very first experience of Turnoi and Silverboy... a negative post was put up about a school I actually worked at - and then a pile of negative of exactly the type we're referring to! That original post, btw, has since been deleted/removed by the original author - because he acknowledged the valid points I made about it! (I''ve since posted my own thread about said school, and trust me, it's NOT a glowing review!) However, if you read the post and all the replies, you'd think it was hell to work at....

The fact is, for me at any rate, if I go looking up a school before signing a contract, and if I see those ppl and their comments, I completely ignore them! Because, I know all they're doing is spewing hate and resentment!

Spewing bile is NOT a good image! Giving good, relevant FACTS IS!

Come on, surely all of us EAP teachers can see through this??? (What, does no-one teach critical reasoning/thinking skills any more?)

Hello there
What's an EAP teacher, is it an acronym? I dislike acronyms and think they should be reserved for mobile telephone texts amongst chums who know what each other are talking about, IMHO.....oops, I meant in my honest opinion...and now everybody knows what I'm talking about.

I don't recall 'yaddayaddayad poster' but I suppose that could be another acronym? I do remember Turnoi and Silverboy(i think they are now retired posters) I think that they performed an essential function(not that I agreed with them) and roll on the day when a Turnoi Junior and a Silverboy Junior emerge once again and take up the baton to expose evil outfits.

Actually, C2 - I agree!! (so, I guess we're both in the minority!)

I have found that virtually ALL negative posts about various schools - or individuals - result in a comment by any of the aforementioned as if they had personal knowledge of that person, and all the relevant facts!!!

Now, the problem with this (and it's a BIG problem, is that there are 'teachers' who come out here, don't get things the way they want, and then just bag out a school or manager or DoS... just to vent their rage! If a wannabe employee of a certain place then is looking to see about accepting a contract, they do a search, and find a while pile of crap about that school - all the negative responses, all the bashing, all the 'don't ever work for these guys - they rip you off' etc etc.... it would turn you off!

However, the school and all the rest could be fine!

Actually, that was my very first experience of Turnoi and Silverboy... a negative post was put up about a school I actually worked at - and then a pile of negative of exactly the type we're referring to! That original post, btw, has since been deleted/removed by the original author - because he acknowledged the valid points I made about it! (I''ve since posted my own thread about said school, and trust me, it's NOT a glowing review!) However, if you read the post and all the replies, you'd think it was hell to work at....

The fact is, for me at any rate, if I go looking up a school before signing a contract, and if I see those ppl and their comments, I completely ignore them! Because, I know all they're doing is spewing hate and resentment!

Spewing bile is NOT a good image! Giving good, relevant FACTS IS!

Come on, surely all of us EAP teachers can see through this??? (What, does no-one teach critical reasoning/thinking skills any more?)

Actually, I'm on vacation right now after leaving the gulf region. Just visiting some friends. Maybe I will go back to the gulf as well. Hook me up if you have something!

I don't feel empowered, just trying to talk about some things and how thing work. I don't care about attacking you or hurting your feelings. When ppl disagree on something the argument can get like this, that is all.

Hi to you too, Mr. Interesting Name Person

wow but you are boring!

right... pile on the name calling...im deeply hurt.

for the record I asked if anyone else on here was suspicious of all the bashing... its virtually impossible to find some post thread without finding a post by one of these guys and migs saying bad things about a school.. i just raise the question how on earth can they have such in-depth insight about all these schools in all these cities... no need to get defensive. plus i share a lot of their views on certain training schools... but the fact is that while we can all bash schools like EF or Wall Steet (no need to rehash their faults.. they've been extensively cataloged in this site) some branches do conduct business in a different way and i just feel that their all-encompassing accusations can put off many teachers and it would certainly be more helpful to be more specific in their accusations.

but yes im a EF paid henchman, i have no english skills, im a GW weasel, im a chinese recruiter, im a foreigner who is trying to deceived everyone YADDAYADDAYADDA... just illustrates the point i was making... you can't challenge anything these guys say that immediately the pile on begins.. i dont get it. im just trying to raise some relevant issues.

but i guess im in the minority here so jah bless.. bash away... I do wonder why you all seem to spend so much time on here rehashing the same lines. anyways im all set with my own work at a small language school so i got nothing to gain, i honestly was just curious if anyone else on here shared any of my reservations.

hope all the time you spend on here accusing and insulting ppl makes you happy!

Is everyone sick of seeing the constant influx of weasels that pop up on these boards? I certainly am! The arrogance of these people, some of whom have little experience with life is disturbing. Apparently these folks believe that bad experiences do not happen to them because they are inherently better! What nonsense! It's when these folks get screwed over that they realize china has no bubbles for them to hide in, and bringing your own bubble with you will risk getting that precious bubble burst, and burst very loudly. It's about time the immature people who bash us for warning others away wake the hell up and realize people do not magically get better. Societies do not magically get better as they develop on the outside surface. There comes a point where developing the mind and the spirit becomes more important, and china hasn't reached a competent point yet. The stagnated, boring drivel constantly spewed by these cleverless folks who think they have become sinofied only prove that theory all the much more!!

is anybody else on these boards sick of posts by turnoi, silverboy saying nothing but across-the-board-bashing of schools?!?! i mean i appreciate the effort to enlighten and guide teachers about diff positions.. but i see posts by these folks bashing schools left and right, from allllll over china - hard to imagine they have first-hand experience with all the schools they so swiftly disregard. sure the china esl market is full of pitfalls.. but im very very veryyyyyyyyyy skeptical of ppl who seem to spend their entire life on these boards just being negative... im sure ill get my fair share of hate for this post, i dont really care.. more than anything im just curious if other teachers browsing these sites looking for helpful information have ever wondered about this? anyways most of us will find out positions at certain schools, hope for the best, work hard and move on.. but somehow these guys will always be here being negative about everything. i would suggest a challenge for these guys... gives us a top 10 reputable schools that uve worked for and recommend instead of just saying negative things about every school. moreover put your money where your mouth is and lets see some credentials, a proven track record of successful teaching experiences in china that will at least reassure us skeptics that you guys are legit and not just bashers... alright let the hate begin!