I know I come across as too straightforward to the point of making people feel like they are being blunted, but I do think it is necessary because of the sheer amount of liars/cheaters who will not stop until they have cut you down to pieces. I do criticize a lot, but I certainly feel that some things are still worth giving the time of day to talk about. If I really hated someone or something such as a whole place or society I would not be spending time on this board talking about it. More extreme, politically motivated discussion forums that are blatantly anti-Chinese can be found all over the internet, but they are not my cup of tea. I do consider my views to be more moderate, and I certainly can say that many Chinese people will agree with my opinions. Of course, the folks who do not want to learn Chinese for fear of discovering the truth will hate my views, but I do not care what they think so much.

It's been over 1/2 a month since this post, but I still find it a bit funny that someone who so benefited from being in the West and got to become a Native Speaker is now putting the same place on a lower pedestal in comparison to China. You would not be working in China or would be working on a lower salary if it wasn't for your English abilities. Where has your Chinese Language abilties taken you to understanding the mentality of the Chinese in a more intimate and intricate way? That's right, you don't care! Met too many expats like you during my time in China.

Your "Britaindarin" interpretation of "am I right or am I right" is just one of many things I use to believe that I understand China better than you.

'Britaindarin', I really do like that sir, haha. I already speak Franglais, that's a new one for my repertoire of languages that I attempt to speak badly. People say that I have quite a standard accent of Mandarin, but I'm by no means perfect, now and again, I do speak a bit of Britaindarin too. So what equivalent have you guys at the other side of the pond got? I know that you tend to prefer your Spanglish to your Franglais, but what do you boys call your erroneous Mandarin?

Anyway, that lad does create a funny character or two. I've had one or two alias for the purposes of keeping my true identity secret for fear of reprisals from the place that kind of lead to me finding this board. My current alias name (that I have no plans to change) is actually all about that. As for him, a character gets outed and mocked to death and he creates a new one. Might as well just shoot them down as soon as they appear.

Don't you think that reply was a bit long and heavy? It sounds like you yourself are a member of some sort of [edited] group, which should have nothing to do with jobs for FT's in China.

You suggest that you know some things about China that I couldn't possibly know- leaving us to believe that you are an expert on China in a way that is not open to a regular FT- well, how so, please?

However, I don't think all the FT's do agree with you- you have merely surrounded yourself with malcontents,(albeit virtual ones) that's all. You trawl around and feverishly gather all the anti-Chinese material you can, and can't and are unwilling to see beyond it....

Will do a re-post on this one. I speak, read, and write Mandarin. I have spoken to many, many Chinese people of all ages, across all walks of life, in their own language which in the modern day is Mandarin Chinese. After years of socializing I realize that I cannot have a peace of mind if I bought into the values of what most Chinese people hold nowadays. I am confident to say that I have access to things that you do not know about, hence I am able to make these comparisons. There are still positive things related to the Chinese that I am attached to, but those are things that can be called universal to me such as meeting a few good people who generously share their time and resources with me. I view most of the pro-Chinese material out there as insulting to the human mind. The so called modern day glory and development of China was built on the backs of poor folks who had their lands, dignity, and time taken away forcefully and left many with no choice but to head to the city and build fancy looking buildings. The history of China in the words of even the Chinese such as Lu Xun was fraught with nothing but slavery, violence, and cannibalism. The Chinese government blackmails anyone with chinese ancestry with the idea of the Chinese Identity and Chinese Culture as much as they can to get the individuals to believe they are owned by China, which I find deplorable. This is a side to Chinese culture you do not have access to, so you are stuck on the surface level of seeing the rosy images and taking that as the substance, when it is just style. You talk to some of the people on here as if they were less intelligent than you. What you missed on is the fact that you are in fact speaking with folks who have a large trove of information about the country, culture, and habits that you may never have heard of, and you can give yourself a chance to learn about this if only you thought more modestly.

As for malcontents, I used to be friends with a individual who has a rather similar personality as you Mancunian. He is an American who like you was ex-military. It seems as if the programming you guys get while being in there puts a little too much value into blind obedience, and you do not get enough deprogramming so you can regain some common sense with telling right from wrong. I say this because you both state how much you dislike the countries you came from, but usually do not say why. You both also project a 100% positive image of all your hopes and dreams onto another country, one that you always seem to keep a safe distance from actually getting to know and understand. But anyways, this person I knew would go on for hours about how much he hated the USA, and from what he had been through putting up with racism, growing up in a large family poor, and the general tough life he had. What was puzzling was the fact that he almost never had anything new to say, if you got to knew him for more than 1 month he basically would feed you the same information. I in my own naivety gave him too much time as well as sympathy to ramble about the same things. He, also like you thinks that he has higher Status than his peers due to being through some things that most of the population has not experienced, he is a legend in his own mind since nobody in the world seemingly wants to give him credit for his existence. What made me break off the friendship was the lack of empathy on his part when I stated some of the experiences I had, he seemed to want to brush it off and even ignore it. I do not think people's troubles should be put on a pyramid and evaluated for performance value if you actually consider the person to be your friend. I later found out some rather trivial things that he was holding back on(i.e. I would say something, and he reveals that he knew this a long time ago), and this was the final straw that told me to move on. This is not what friends do, and you seem to exhibit the same type of behavior. Mancunian, whatever smarter, more clever, witty, intelligent, or higher knowledge you possess you would need to actually bring others to see things your way for you to claim legitimacy in your stand. You do not have that level of understanding so far as I can see.

I do seem to have a lot of anti-Chinese material to you, don't I? But that's only to you because of the access to the language that I have. I do not spend my time looking for this stuff, I have it in my mind already. I will also say this: I do not find many Chinese (even most perhaps) as well as some expats in China to be very tolerant of finding a middle ground for these kinds of cultural debates. Trying to compromise from my own experience leads to only more abuse from the party whom you're disagreeing with. It doesn't help that in arguments things can always get personal, so as I became more experienced I would sometimes go further down on the opposite end so you can actually budge from your shell of where your position is. I am willing to see beyond it, after all there are 2,000+ active languages with I think 700-800 major ethnic groups in this world. You seem to believe China is all you will need, but you won't even know if that was ever really true since we are only comparing a few places. I myself was only saying 1 place is not as good as a few other places, don't see why you're so, well malcontent on arguing with me.

Yes, hide behind all that intellectualism but ignore common sense. But for a poster such as you who see us as merely cars I think you would not have the will to discuss anything anyway, just obey anybody with "authority" attached to their title.

Excellent point.
In "On the Value of Scepticism", Bertrand Russell wrote "Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken."

Your story may sound different at first glance, but is rather similar to what I have seen from new Chinese immigrants who live in Chinatown as well as elsewhere in the USA and Canada. Many of them are older folks who would be forced into retirement if they stayed in China, and even if they could find work it would be menial with very low pay. In the USA as well as Canada they can apply for food stamps as well as welfare whether they have stayed illegally or not. I am sure that listening to you talking about how great China is for you they would merely shake their heads and talk about the West being just as good, of course not every one of them would do this, only the honest ones.

The point is, the free market is really the best indicator of how much ground an individual's opinion has. To begin with any of us working as an ESL Teacher whether we have made it to management or even own our own private business masquerading as "education" cannot be perceived as being beyond mediocre performance wise in the competitive world of business. The West has contributed more value to the world economy than any other region within the last few hundred years, and due to this there will still be many, many more people who want to go to the West instead of the reverse. Even if there are more teachers going overseas due to the shabby economy in the West if you look at pure salary China and East Asia in general is not at the very top for the majority, that would be the Middle East. As for the treatment of teachers China is certainly not at the top, or even batting average I would say. The fact that you yourself stated that to make 5000 rmb would afford a lifestyle to live like a "king" in a city like Hangzhou goes to show everyone how lacking in scope you actually possess about the ESL world.

I understand for an older person like you working at a training center as an ESL English Teacher may be the only option that you have right now for yourself, but this isn't so for the majority of people. I know an older gentleman who is American, has worked in the ESL industry for 20+ years, and because he is older than 65 he cannot find work so easily in China and can only take whatever comes to him. He is working at a training center in a small city in China as well right now, just like you. But unlike you, he has a broader outlook due to having worked in several other countries prior and he can accurately compare whether working in China is really the ideal spot for him, and to him it isn't. He will compliment as well as criticize, and he doesn't romanticize China. I am glad to call him a friend and I have learned many things about life from him. Unfortunately I cannot say the same about you. This may be because your own opinions do not correlate with that of most other teachers, but you don't care enough about others and believe you have to be right.

This is about the crappy behavior of the Chinese who steal from their own and refuse to share the wealth with their own. The income level disparity is the worst in china. Not even countries with numerous social problems like India can compare. No offense but it is obvious you do not know enough about china to comment. Sliding the issue at hand away to criticize western culture is not going to make you look more honest btw. What did you do about the evil western companies then? You are perfectly happy working in a country that got developed largely by western as well as Japanese investments.

Many, many expats are rather unaware of how the Chinese are now the biggest purchasers of luxury goods in the world. Many of them live in the luxury that came from the blood, sweat, and tears of folks who broke their backs working hard for nothing. As expat teachers who have worked at crap places such as training centers I know for a fact at where the money comes from and what these people do with the money. It is already enough that the taxes we pay go to government officials to drink, eat endangered animals, and tear up newly built buildings and roads so they can add more credentials to their Political Resume on how they "developed" the area again. It is simply too much when merchants and businessman join in on this charade at my expense while employing GW types to lie to me and intimidate me to no end. But we do see that they are afraid indeed, some will even post on here telling us how right their views are and how much we should not think things through because it is China or whatever corrupt 3rd world country they are working in.